The Rights of Men

[Tee Kay]

Sure, it is a 1st world problem when it societal attitudes rather than doing time. This does not make it not a problem.

Also plenty of women in the so-called Third World are affected by same/similar attitudes. It's not a #firstworldproblem, it's a global problem.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I don't dispute that some people are able to ignore society's conditioning and not fall prey to its effects. I'm just saying that this conditioning exists in the first place, and that people have to deal with it.

I feel that you're grossly overstating its insidiousness though.

In addition to that, you can't raise children in a vacuum anyway. They're always going to be influenced by the culture around them. As are adults of course. This isn't inherently sinister and to be fought against on principle. You can't just raise someone in complete isolation from the thoughts and opinions of anyone else and allow them to make their own completely unbiased decisions about all aspects of life. If you allow them to see that fairy dresses exist and they then start thinking they'd like to wear one and beg you to buy them one, have you brainwashed them?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Generally positive was my words. I have to admit I am now older and most of my friends are in stable relationships, but when I was at college yes, my acquaintances who were male and slept with lots of people were looked on generally positively by the wider college society and the ones who were female were looked one generally negatively.

Did all the female students look on them positively as well?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Also plenty of women in the so-called Third World are affected by same/similar attitudes. It's not a #firstworldproblem, it's a global problem.

Don't people in the third world have slightly more pressing things to worry about than whether or not people whisper "slut" behind their backs? Particularly given that the behaviour that would lead to that happening will also most likely lead to 15 children and an early death?

 

[Tee Kay]

In addition to that, you can't raise children in a vacuum anyway. They're always going to be influenced by the culture around them. As are adults of course. This isn't inherently sinister and to be fought against on principle. You can't just raise someone in complete isolation from the thoughts and opinions of anyone else and allow them to make their own completely unbiased decisions about all aspects of life. If you allow them to see that fairy dresses exist and they then start thinking they'd like to wear one and beg you to buy them one, have you brainwashed them?

... so maybe start moving towards a culture that, say, doesn't as aggressively segregatedly market toys based on gender?

 

[Samson]

Did all the female students look on them positively as well?

Generally they were looked upon positively. I cannot speak for all students. This is very different from how the women were looked on (again generally, there were some men who looked on these women very positively).

 

[Tee Kay]

Don't people in the third world have slightly more pressing things to worry about than whether or not people whisper "slut" behind their backs? Particularly given that the behaviour that would lead to that happening will also most likely lead to 15 children and an early death?

You'd think so, but no.

In fact since your average so-called Third World societies are more conservative and communal and face-to-face than most First World societies, reputation matters heaps more. Having a reputation as a slut or not might mean the difference between your family allowing you to venture out to shop/socialise/work and trusting you to make your own decisions of matters of friendship and partner choice, or keeping you a cloistered at home or shadowed by a chaperone.

 

[Samson]

Don't people in the third world have slightly more pressing things to worry about than whether or not people whisper "slut" behind their backs? Particularly given that the behaviour that would lead to that happening will also most likely lead to 15 children and an early death?

If you think this you really need to learn about safe sex.

 

[sophie]

Generally positive was my words. I have to admit I am now older and most of my friends are in stable relationships, but when I was at college yes, my acquaintances who were male and slept with lots of people were looked on generally positively by the wider college society and the ones who were female were looked one generally negatively.

Sure, it is a 1st world problem when it societal attitudes rather than doing time. This does not make it not a problem.

Don't forget the other side of that coin. Women who are promiscuous are considered sluts, but women who are abstentious are called frigid or teases. It's a catch-22.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

... so maybe start moving towards a culture that, say, doesn't as aggressively segregatedly market toys based on gender?

Define "aggressively". Also, the fact that different toys are marketed to boys and girls is, in and of itself, evidence of nothing because there are (at least) two equally plausible explanations for this being the case:

1) The culture is enforcing gender roles on children, and big business is the tool of this enforcement.

2) The toy preferences bias already exists between the genders and the toy companies are merely responding to this as a way to maximise profits.

In the absence of any other information then either could be the case. Given that we know that pretty much the sole purpose of big business is to make profit, rather than enforce societal structures, then I would lean towards the latter.

Then you would have the additional question as to where the existing toy preference bais actually comes from of course.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You'd think so, but no.

In fact since your average so-called Third World societies are more conservative and communal and face-to-face than most First World societies, reputation matters heaps more. Having a reputation as a slut or not might mean the difference between your family allowing you to venture out to shop/socialise/work and trusting you to make your own decisions of matters of friendship and partner choice, or keeping you a cloistered at home or shadowed by a chaperone.

I feel this has spiralled out of control somewhat due to me using the term "first world problem" when the discussion seemed entirely centred around women in the first world being called sluts a bit more than men and facing no other consequences of note. THAT was the first world consequences I was talking about. I wasn't talking about this issue because, until that point, neither was anyone else.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Don't forget the other side of that coin. Women who are promiscuous are considered sluts, but women who are abstentious are called frigid or teases. It's a catch-22.

It's only a catch-22 if your main concern in life is what a small number of people say about you behind your back. I think mature adults just need to be able to deal with the fact that not everyone in the world is always going to have a positive opinion about them, often for stupid and arbitrary reasons, and it's generally best not to worry about it all that much.

 

[Akka]

My sister has two young daughters, one is two and a half, the other one is maybe 9 months old. The amount of gender role nonsense I see thrown at these little girls by the media, by the stores they shop at, and just by society in general - yes we are nowhere near a proper amount of it.

And that's making a mountain ouf of a molehill here.

First, we have to admit that gender role is actually a bad thing in itself.
Second, we have to admit that people are subjected to an amount of such "nonsense" which actually negatively affect them in life, and to a point that it's a major problem.

I'm very reluctant on the first premise and feel you're blowing the second widely out of proportions.

 

[Samson]

It's only a catch-22 if your main concern in life is what a small number of people say about you behind your back. I think mature adults just need to be able to deal with the fact that not everyone in the world is always going to have a positive opinion about them, often for stupid and arbitrary reasons, and it's generally best not to worry about it all that much.

This sub-thread was started by this post:

LOL, because "slutwalks" are so liberating and respectful to women...

It's crazy that that is what SJWs consider to be "liberation" - to debase and objectify themselves and celebrate it as liberal enlightenment. It's total inverted reality. The actual feminists that fought for the right to vote must be rolling over in their graves.

It was started when civman110 said that a movement against the blaming the victims of rape on the clothes they were wearing was disrespectful. I think that is something to worry about, because the attitude, which appeared to be held by senior members of the Montreal police, is damaging.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

It was started when civman110 said that a movement against the blaming the victims of rape on the clothes they were wearing was disrespectful. I think that is something to worry about, because the attitude, which appeared to be held by senior members of the Montreal police, is damaging.

I think you're wilfully misreading him to be fair. He was saying that he finds women going on marches dressed in underwear with "SLUT" written across their chests (for example) to be disrespectful to women. NOT that protesting the blaming of rape victims for the clothes that they were wearing is disrespectful or something bad. His point was clearly that he does not think the former is a very good way of going about the latter. Personally I'd just be grateful that he didn't blame the whole thing on lefties.

Also, the ONE police officer to blame for all this didn't even say anything about rape victims, he was merely expressing an opinion on how to possibly avoid becoming one.

 

[madviking]

It's only a catch-22 if your main concern in life is what a small number of people say about you behind your back. I think mature adults just need to be able to deal with the fact that not everyone in the world is always going to have a positive opinion about them, often for stupid and arbitrary reasons, and it's generally best not to worry about it all that much.

I can't help to read this as "ignore the problems, it will somehow get better later," which, honestly, is just not the right mentality to have. As long as people have power, then they should be using that power to better their lives.

 

[Leoreth]

My sister grew up in the 70s and 80s and is rather tomboyish and into sci-fi and chemistry and whatever else. The, presumably much more entrenched, gender role "bombardment" of 40 years ago didn't seem to do her any harm.

She now has a daughter of her own who, despite her best efforts, seems determined to prance around in fairy and princess costumes 90% of the time.

Anecdotal evidence FTW

I'm sure your sister appreciates being used as evidence. Why not listen to actual women in this thread? This whole discussion is about experiences you refuse to acknowledge, which means actual first hand experiences are very relevant to the discussion. Certainly more so than the experiences of men who have female acquaintances or just generally know what it's like to be a woman.

It's only a catch-22 if your main concern in life is what a small number of people say about you behind your back. I think mature adults just need to be able to deal with the fact that not everyone in the world is always going to have a positive opinion about them, often for stupid and arbitrary reasons, and it's generally best not to worry about it all that much.

How often do you want to want to shift the goal posts in this thread? First it's made up, then it's a minority problem, then it's only an irrelevant concern.

And that's making a mountain ouf of a molehill here.

First, we have to admit that gender role is actually a bad thing in itself.
Second, we have to admit that people are subjected to an amount of such "nonsense" which actually negatively affect them in life, and to a point that it's a major problem.

I'm very reluctant on the first premise and feel you're blowing the second widely out of proportions.

I thought we generally liked individuality around here.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I can't help to read this as "ignore the problems, it will somehow get better later," which, honestly, is just not the right mentality to have. As long as people have power, then they should be using that power to better their lives.

Not at all. It's more "stop pretending minor inconveniences are major problems". Also, I don't believe anyone DOES have the power to eradicate such low-level stuff from society, or at least not without taking some horrendously draconian actions which can't be good. I believe individuals have the power to better their own lives though, and one step they could take is to stop pretending minor inconveniences are major problems and to get on with their lives.

 

[useless]

Why is it a minor inconvenience? I'm not going to dress this up in any other way; you're a man telling women to basically "deal with it and get on" with any sexism they deal.

 

[Samson]

Not at all. It's more "stop pretending minor inconveniences are major problems". Also, I don't believe anyone DOES have the power to eradicate such low-level stuff from society, or at least not without taking some horrendously draconian actions which can't be good. I believe individuals have the power to better their own lives though, and one step they could take is to stop pretending minor inconveniences are major problems and to get on with their lives.

I am not a woman, and I do not want to speak as to the effect this attitude has on any one individual or group. However the problem I have with this attitude (perfectly shown by civmans comment I quoted above) is the sexism displayed by a significant proportion of the population when it comes to people taking control of their own sexuality. Very few (I cannot actually think of one) people openly believe that women should be restricted in employment, voting, or any of the other "big" issues of feminism. Many people will have this duality of attitudes when it comes to sleeping around, or dressing to attract the opposite sex. I think this is an issue, and it is more about the people that have this attitude than it is the effect of this attitude on any individual.