The Road to Guantanamo

[Riffraff]

Another idealist...

Our constitutions protect us, not our enemies. Our enemies want to destroy us and they abuse the freedom and rights we enjoy. It is in our best interest to protect ourselves by any means necessary.

I'll give you the first line of the german constitution:

1) Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.

our constitution protects everyone, without exception.

 

[nonconformist]

If you're against that sort of thing, why do you use a former Soviet premier as your avatar?

Because he's a Soviet premier that stopped the war in Afghanistan, improved relations to the West, is a Nobel Peace Prize winner, opened up Berlin to free travel between the East and the West, rehabilitated many purged Soviets, and eventually brought the Soviet Union down?

 

[REDY]

Civillization gets more civilised every day. Injustice just tends to be broadcast even more. Now we are aware that there is so much injustice in the world.

Guantanamo is a disgrace to America and the rest of western civillization.

Thats point. But most sadly is how many members of western civilization even with broadcast are supporting Guanamano and others barbarian things. Are they blind or what . Things as Guantamano is exactly what terrorists want. Every case of torturing and killing innocent will recruit new terrorists. If western civilization will have fear to stands behind all rights for all (as some members of this forum), the terrorism will never end.

 

[warpus]

How come nobody makes a film about the rest of Cuba?

Anyway, this film is invalid because the war is not between two civilized parties, only between a civilized group of nations and an uncivilized group of nations and paramilitary organizations. We are not the ones responsible for this conflict, though we are the ones responsible for resolving it.

Osama Bin Laden was trained and funded by the CIA, before being abandoned. You are responsible for some of this.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Another idealist...

Our constitutions protect us, not our enemies. Our enemies want to destroy us and they abuse the freedom and rights we enjoy. It is in our best interest to protect ourselves by any means necessary.

I am not an idealist, I just believe that some borders should not be crossed, like imprisoning and tortuting suspects until they just tell you what you want to hear.

 

[Dionysius]

<purged.>

 

[GoodSarmatian]

GoodSarmatian: the flag is a piece of cloth. unless you feel civil war will result from the indignant outrage caused by seeing a certain piece of cloth burnt, it shouldnt be illegal.

I know that. Flags don't mean anything to me, and I think people who are outraged by a burning flag are just silly.
But when I see people burning flags in the news they ususally scream "death to somebody" and don't look like you can talk with them about whatever infuriated them.

 

[jameson]

This is justice at Gitmo. A report based on analysis of records of military hearings found that :

- The government did not produce any witnesses in any hearing.
- The military denied all detainee requests to inspect the classified evidence against them.
- The military refused all requests for defense witnesses who were not detained at Guantanamo.
- In 74 percent of the cases, the government denied requests to call witnesses who were detained at the prison.
- In 91 percent of the hearings, the detainees did not present any evidence (that's to say, the military representative assigned to the detainee did not present any evidence)
- In three cases, the panel found that the detainee was &#8220;no longer an enemy combatant,&#8221; but the military convened new tribunals that later found them to be enemy combatants.

And that was after the detainees were 'interrogated'.

 

[Cannae]

i`m here again.

Wecome back Dionysius

 

[amadeus]

Osama Bin Laden was trained and funded by the CIA, before being abandoned. You are responsible for some of this.

People still believe this?

Osama bin Laden was neither "trained" nor "funded" by the CIA. The CIA assisted the Pakistani government, and their government (the ISI) sent funds to the MAK, or "Office of Services," that trained and armed the Afghan mujahadin. Osama bin Laden only established the group that was used to funnel the money to the mujahadin.

The number of Afghan fighters the MAK trained, however, was about 100, hardly the international network of terrorists that the United States faces. I'll be more than happy to admit I was wrong if you can find any one of the 9/11 hijackers being part of the Afghan mujahaidn.

 

[Kosez]

As I thought. Some people care about human rights only when theirs are violated. But the whole point of The Rule of Law and Human Rights subsequently is, that it stretches to everybody! If we will not try to understand that, we won't be able to resolve our problems.

Cause that's the point of Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and everything. Western civilization is in deep trouble, and it needs enemies. And who are better enemies than people we do not know and don't care about and who are at the same time innocent and unable to defend.

Guys, we are scum. If hell existed we would all burn in it!

 

[Mountain-God]

We should be kind to our enemies, is that what you're saying?

I don't give a damn if some terrorists are tortured in secret prisons. They deserve it.

I don't understand this moral degeneration in the Western world. Where is the self-confidence it had few decades ago? For last few years, all I hear is how is the West bad, corrupt, hypocritical, evil and inhuman. Such attitudes only aid our enemies.

Cue blindingly obvious question:

How do you know they are terrorists?

Because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Because they shot at American soldiers whom they thought were invading their country?

Because they were carrying a gun - as many Americans do?

People still believe this?

Osama bin Laden was neither "trained" nor "funded" by the CIA. The CIA assisted the Pakistani government, and their government (the ISI) sent funds to the MAK, or "Office of Services," that trained and armed the Afghan mujahadin. Osama bin Laden only established the group that was used to funnel the money to the mujahadin.

The number of Afghan fighters the MAK trained, however, was about 100, hardly the international network of terrorists that the United States faces. I'll be more than happy to admit I was wrong if you can find any one of the 9/11 hijackers being part of the Afghan mujahaidn.

Same old RMSHARPE

Abuse, ridicule, misdirection, demands evidence then ignores it every time it's given - I recall quite a few forum members simply stopped bothering. Moderator Action: Warned for trolling. ~ DoM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

THE ROAD TO GUANTANAMO
May be reached, perhaps, through fear, nationalism, and intellectual cowardice.

 

[tossi]

Guantanamo is the greatest disgrace for western civilization since i don't know.

 

[Zamecnik]

People still believe this?

Osama bin Laden was neither "trained" nor "funded" by the CIA. The CIA assisted the Pakistani government, and their government (the ISI) sent funds to the MAK, or "Office of Services," that trained and armed the Afghan mujahadin. Osama bin Laden only established the group that was used to funnel the money to the mujahadin.

The number of Afghan fighters the MAK trained, however, was about 100, hardly the international network of terrorists that the United States faces. I'll be more than happy to admit I was wrong if you can find any one of the 9/11 hijackers being part of the Afghan mujahaidn.

Ok, I here this alot, you have to educate yourself about international politics and espionage. While it's true that the US didn't directly fund Bin Laden, this isn't the whole picture. The US funded Pakistan, correct, and the US also supported and encouraged the Saudis as well, and various factions within it, who funded Bin Laden. The US was well aware of what is was doing, so yes, it very much supported the Saudi/Wahabbi wing of the mujahadeen. Check out Ghost Wars (just look it up on Amazon, can't remember the author), it's generally considered the best information on the US and Afghanistan.

This sort of operation also applies to the support of Iraq under Saddam. Right-wingers love repeating that only 2 percent (or something like that) of weapons that Saddam used were US manufactured. What they are leaving out is the role that the US played in finding and supporting/funding Iraqi weapon buying (including other western countries and Eastern bloc).

 

[Kosez]

In the film Road to Guantanamo, the story was about 5 UK citizens, from Pakistan, Bangladesh and other Islamic ex-British countries. They went to Pakistan cause one of the friends was marrying. They had time and they were a bit idealistic and naive and they ended up in Afghanistan to help Afghani people. In what way they probably don't know either. Although they never fired a single bullet at anyone, one of them died, 4 ended up in Guantanamo. They were released after a year or so, cause nothing could be proved to them. They admitted everything, due to torture, but I guess US interrogators finally found out, that's plain bull...

Story is strangely resembling courts from the past. We can now only wait for Americans to reintroduce ordalic judgment again.

 

[Winner]

As a former member of the Eastern Block, I'd have expected that you, or someone in your position would be amongst the first to denounce camps for the indefinite concentration and torture of untried and uncondemned opolitical prisoners.

They are not political prisoners, they're terrorists. The sole fact someone is captured in Afghanistan during a fight with coalition troops is enough to inprison him.

Islamism is the same kind of threat as nazism or communism and it uses the same tactic - it uses our democracy and our freedom against us. We would be stupid if we played their game, because you know, how it ends.

 

[Winner]

I'll give you the first line of the german constitution:

our constitution protects everyone, without exception.

Nice, it sounds good, but you know, that it is just that - nice talk, don't you?

 

[Winner]

I am not an idealist, I just believe that some borders should not be crossed, like imprisoning and tortuting suspects until they just tell you what you want to hear.

They're not US citizens, they're people captured because they chose to fight the US or coalition forces.

Yeah, technically, they're suspects, but a crushing majority of them are guilty. Anyway, they're enemies and since they don't fall withing the 4th article of 3rd Geneva Convention, I guess the US is free to do whatever they want with them.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Sorry guys but I agree with Winner here. Constitution and Human rights are just nice words we show to other nations to make them believe we are civilized and better than the scums terrorists we are fighting. I therefore sent a mail to my french PM asking him to throw in prison every single eastern european female living in France as they are clearly and without a doubt prostitutes or a future prostitutes. All eastern european males shuld also be put in jail since they are/will become mafia members, pimps or both ;-)
And don't bother me with the French Constitution, it is there for French not for the barbarians

Sound riduculous? well it is

 

[Rambuchan]

Is western civilization really so &#733;civilized&#733;, democratic and humane as we think we are?

<snip>

No, it isn't. That myth has been the spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down for a long time.

If one looks to British Imperial history, you find much the same as we have with the American version today, with its accompanying torture, invasions, massacres, encroachment on civil liberties, occupations, racism, hypocrisy, inequity and so on. All of which contradict the myth.

In the case of the British, the spoonful of sugar was called "civilisation". As in "we are bringing 'civilisation' to these backward people". That meant parliamentary and legal institutions, certain technologies and the haloed English culture being brought to "backward" Indians, Africans, Native Americans etc, who became subjects under the British overlord.

In the case of the Americans, the spoonful of sugar is called "democracy" and "the capitalist 'free' market" (something the Brits did too). As in "we are bringing democracy to these backward people" and "we are doing them a favour in bringing them into the globalised economy". This means American political and economic systems, mostly brought to "backward" Arabs today, south east Asians during the Cold War, but also Africans in the case of developmental systems throughout. It means cultural imperialism by way of Hollywood and economic overlordship by way of American multi-nationals.

In both cases, such "civilisation" needed to be brought with extreme brutality, occupation and a disregard for law, even the law as laid out by such "civilised" powers. In both cases, those "backward" people were unfit to rule themselves and their political systems were deemed to be "less advanced". In both cases, nevermind whether it is beneficial for those "backward" people, it's good for the "civilised" powers - and that's all that matters. And in both cases, we see the same myth working to make the hard truth more palatable and actions contradicting ideologies.