The Second Korean War (C3C only)

[Simon Darkshade]

An interesting concept, and a scenario that holds a great deal of promise when the next version emerges, particularly in regards to various units, such as the bogeyman of the North Korean arty. There are a fair few applicable units available here and ...elsewhere..., both modern and near future.
Mr. Costello is an interesting choice; it is likely Mr. Howard will stay on for a fair bit longer, and then groom a successor in his image. Brown is also a 'safe' choice.
Politics aside, looks and plays well, and I will withold full judgement until further versions. Certainly minefields, long range arty, chemical weapons, strategic bombers, theatre missile defence (missile icon but badged as a fighter so it can intercept in a wide area like an interceptor, in addition to the more conventional Patriot batteries), commando raids, the role of refugees clogging military routes(possible pollution replacement?), and of course a second Inchon supported by battlewagons spring to mind as potential additions.

 

[LMR]

Costello will be PM when Howard retires. whether he survives the next election is another matter

Are Patriots SAM launchers or more like Radar Artillery?

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Patriot SAM launchers are an air defence unit that is out there; certainly they are not one of the original game units.

As for the political question, the word from my other Liberal Party compatriots out east is that not all is sown up for Pete, and he will not get an opportunity before the next election.

Korea is an interesting place for a scenario, and there has been a lot of material written on it, particularly in regards to alternate history. It is a concept that has a lot of life in it.

 

[csa945]

Thanks for the suggestions, Simon. The only thing I'm not sure how to do would be the alteration of the pollution.

These are the current ideas I have for units and techs. It's certainly not a complete list (most of them came from looking through Wikipedia), and I would welcome any suggestions for other units:

Units
US Army
M16 Infantry
SCAR Infantry
M1A3 Abrams MBT
M113
M2001 Crusader
US Marine
MIM-104 Patriot Missile Launcher

AH-64 Apache Helicopter
UH-60 Black Hawk Helicopter

F/A-18 Super Hornet
F-22 Raptor
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
B-3 Wraith
B-52 Stratafortress
A-10 Thunderbolt III

Nimitz class Carrier CVN
McCain-class Carrier CVN
Ticonderoga-class AEGIS Cruiser DDG
Oliver Hazard Perry-class Frigate FFG
Tawara-class Amphibious Assault Ship LHA
Los Angeles-class Submarine SSN
Transport


French Army
FAMAS Infantry
Leclerc MBT
AMX30 AuF1

EC665 Tigre Attack Helicopter

Mirage 2000
Rafale

FS Charles de Gaulle
FS Jacques Chirac
Horizon-class FFG
FREMM-class FFG
Redoubtable-class SNLE
Transport

British Army
SA80 Infantry
FRES APC
Challenger III MBT
Royal Marine

AH-1 Cobra Helicopter
EH-101 Merlin Helicopter

Eurofighter Typhoon
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

CVF Carrier
FC65
AAW Destroyer
Upholder-class Submarine
Transport

Australian Army
Steyr AUG Infantry
Challenger III MBT
M198 Howitzer
M113

UH-60 Black Hawk Helicopter
EC665 Tiger Attack Helicopter

F/A-18 Super Hornet

Adelaide-class (AEGIS) FFG
ANZAC-class FFG
Collins-class SSN

People’s Liberation Army
Norinco QBZ-95 Infantry
T-99 MBT
T-63A (amphibious)
T-89 APC (amphibious)
WS-1B Artillery

WZ-10 Attack Helicopter
UH-60 Black Hawk Helicopter

J-11

Sovremenny-class DDG
Kilo-class SSN
Luda-class DDG
Jianghu-class FFG
Mao-class CVBG

Korean People’s Army
AK-47 Infantry
T-34 MBT
T-54 MBT
Modified T62 MBT
BTR-60

Mil Mi-24 (Hind)

MiG-19

NEED TO MAKE A DRPK NAVY

Republic of Korea Army
M16 Infantry
K2 MBT
BMP-3
BTR-60
SAM
M-53 Howitzer

UH-60 Black Hawk Helicopter

F-15

KDX-III-class AEGIS Destroyer DDG
Transport

Russian Army
AN-94
T-95 MBT

Karimov-52

Su-47

NEED TO MAKE A RUSSIAN NAVY
Transport

Japanese Army
M-89 Infantry
Type 90 MBT

UH-1J
Type 87 AW
OH-1

Kongo-class AEGIS Destroyer DDG
Osumi-class Landing Ship
Transport

Taiwanese Army
T-91 Infantry
M113
Type 64 MBT
M110 Howitzer
MIM-104 Patriot Missile Launcher
TOW

AH-1W Attack Helicopter
UH-60 Black Hawk Helicopter

F-16
Mirage 2000

NEED TO MAKE AN ROC NAVY


Technologies

General
Genetic Engineering  Stem Cell Manipulation

Taiwan
Taiwanese Nationalism  Taiwanese Independence

China
Super Carriers
Floating Currency

US
Missile Defense  Satellite Warfare (would allow something along the lines of the Particle Cannon in C&C: Generals)

North Korea
NPT Withdrawal  Nuclear Program  Dirty bombs
Stalinism

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Re: pollution - It was once done in a Civ2 scenario, with 'slave uprisings' replacing pollution. It could be implemented by replacing pollution with refugees, although I lack the Civ3 knowledge as to how it could have pollution clogging roads and impeding swift movement.
Perhaps barbarian units could include mines and refugees, even with some immobile units.

Re: unit ideas

Some of those are terrific ideas. Here are some other potential ideas:

US Infantry instead of gun designation (give nationality for others; it is a matter of taste. It would also be good to have unit designations and names)
US Special Forces
US Army Ranger
US Navy Seals
US Airborne Division (82nd and 101st Air Assault)
M1A2 Abrams MBT
M2A3 Bradley IFV
Stryker APC
M109A6 Paladin
M270 MLRS
AAAV/EFV/LVTP-7

F-15E Strike Eagles
F-16X Fighting Falcons
FB-22/FB-22XL (possible system being contemplated)
B-1B Lancer/B-1R Super Lancer
B-2 Spirit
F-117 Nighthawk
V-22 Osprey
Predator UCAVs

CVN-77
CVN-21
Seawolf SSN
Virginia SSN
Arleigh Burke DDG
LCS
DDX
CGX
Modernized Iowa class Battleships
LPD-17 San Antonio instead of generic transport
LSD-41s

French:
Wheeled APCs/IFVs
FS Richelieu instead of Chirac (has been announced, methinks)
Caesar SP Howitzers

British:
Warrior AFVs
AS-90 SPH
Tornados/Super Tornado strike aircraft
Tempest (2 seat strike version of of Typhoon)
Royal Marine Commandos
British SAS

Type 45 Destroyers
Type 23 Frigates
Type 46 Cruisers
Astute class SSN
Ark Royal CVS
Ocean LPH
Albion & Bulwark LPD

Australia:
M1A1/M1A2 MBT (we have them)
M113A3 AFV
AASLAV
Australian SAS

F-35 JSF

Hobart, Brisbane and Sydney AEGIS DDGs
Canberra and Adelaide LHDs
Collins class SSK

DPRK Navy:
Soviet SSKs
Fast Attack Craft

ROK:
F-15K
F-16
F-35
Possibly a medium (20-25000ton) amphibious ship/carrier

ROC
M110A5
240mm Howitzers
Navy - Kidd DDGs, Perry FFGs
Give them F-15s as well, in a few numbers.

Russkies: Plenty of stuff out there. Vingrjoe has made most of a Soviet navy himself, in addition to other units.

Give the Japs M109s, M110s, MLRS, AFVs, SSMs, possibly SSNs, a carrier, F-22s, F-35s, F-15Js, F-2s and possibly some cruisers.

 

[William GBTW]

Dammy; lets keep this simple; we MUST have more B-52's and B-2's but within reason.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

thanks for the screenies

wow thats a lot of cities! do you think we need all those? in china an japan i mean, and also why is Taiwan in here? i betthese cities slow the game down a lot

sorry im not trying to be overly critical i just notice this a lot with peoples scenarios; they throw like 300 cities into a map and the detail is nice but i can make my own pizza in between every turn

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

i also like the USS John McCain

 

[csa945]

Simon, thanks for all the suggestions.

I never saw a name for the next French carrier, so I just picked Chirac as he'd be the 2nd President (I believe) to serve two full terms. Richelieu works fine, too.

The F-117 is being phased out in lieu of one of the new fighters. I think it's the F-35, but I could be wrong. The British Warrior is also supposed to be phased out by 2010 or 2012, I think.

And I read about Australia having M1A1's, but I decided to award the next armor contract to the British with the Challenger III.

The McCain was the CVN-21, and the other two US carriers were the Reagan and the Lincoln.

I also took the liberty in upgrading some of the units: B-3 instead of the B-2, M1A3 instead of the M1A2 or M1A1, and the Challenger III instead of the II.

And IIRC, the V-22 program has been cancelled due to an excessive number of fatal accidents during testing.

About the Iowa-class. The US doesn't field battleships anymore do they? I didn't see any battleships currently commissioned on Wikipedia.

And I didn't think that the Japanese had any carriers.

I'll see if I can delete some more of the cities, too. (I just wanted to represent China's enormous population).

 

[Simon Darkshade]

1.) Richelieu has been indicated

2.) Not until 2020 or thereabouts. Nighthawks are still in service and going strong.

3.) Warrior is being upgraded with larger guns and staying for the future. Certainly for the next 8 years.

4.) There will be no further armour contract for several decades, as the M1A1s will enter full service in a year or two as part of the Hardened Networked Army Project.

5.) CVN-77 is George H.W. Bush, an interim carrier. CVN-21, being of a radically new design, would be very suited to a symbolic name such as USS America or USS United States. Given that it is yet to be built, some tinkering can be done with its statistics.

6.) It is a liberty to upgrade units, but arguably they need to make some sense of continuity. The B-2s are frontline bombers, and the best in the world; if an upgrade is needed, then either reopen the production line, or modify the B-2As to B-2B or B-2C, rather than bringing in the B-3, which implies a whole new bomber, something that will not come in for 15 years at the minimum.
As for the tanks, a mixture can be presented, as M1A3 modifications have been (unofficially) mooted as converting the M1A2 to a more urban combat friendly configuration. Both A2s and A3s can be incorporated in my view.
As for the Challenger III, it would be hardpressed to create a scenario for a MBT upgrade for the British Army, with the other services getting their new gear. Perhaps an upgrade could be represented by a Challenger 2A or Super Challenger, with such notions as a 140mm gun.

7.) The V-22 is entering service and is in full production at long last, both for the Marine version and particularly for SOCOM.

8.) The Iowa and Wisconsin are not on the active list, and have recently been stricken from the innactive reserve. However, given the uncertain state of the DDX program, it is not out of the realms of future possibility for this to alter. When we are discussing fictional alternate future history as we are with a computer game modification, then that potential is raised even further. Heavy naval gunfire (particularly extended range) is useful in a Korean War scenario, given the geography of the peninsula.
It is up to the designer, but it does add a little bit of history and fun to the game with the idea of the battlewagons returning to the waters they cruised in the early 1950s. The units are present and ready (Modernized Iowa Class Battleship by Vingrjoe, as seen in The Cold War Deluxe), and with an interim 8 years to play with, a number of alternate historical scenarios are possible - perhaps a following administration has a different view on transformation.

9.) The Japs have no carriers now, but are working on some large amphibious ships, nominally LSTs, which have large helicopter decks. Given the increasing confidence of Japan in regards to flexing its military muscles, the construction of a small to medium vessel or two is not outside of the realms of possibility, particularly in reply to a ChiCom carrier. Again, like the battleship idea, it is a personal decision, but it would be interesting to see. There haven't been any scenarios I know of that have explored the full potential of a modern rearmed Japan, and this is just the situation where it could be examined.
It is an option, along similar lines to the Jap SSNs I proposed, as well as the cruisers (rather enlarged Kongos with more SAMs, ASuW capacity, heavier guns).

In the end, there is no need to stick to reality, but departures from events and real hardware need a good backstory and explanation, both for the Civilopedia and for overall storyline.

 

[csa945]

Well, I have an explanation for the USS John McCain at least. I've read that most people speculate that the CVN-21 will either be named the USS America, for the reason you mentioned, or the USS Enterprise as the current ship of that name is the next to be decomissioned. I thought that if it were being commissioned not long (as in less than a year) after the death of a sitting US president with a distinguished record of service in the United States Navy, they might be willing to change the name in his honor . . .

And the USS George Bush will be based on the East coast, so I didn't include it in this scenario (look for it in future versions of the Cuban Civil War, though).

Also, with the M1A3 and the Challenger III, I was drawing on the Axis of Time Trilogy by John Birmingham (whose second and most recent installment I am currently reading): The M1A3 was designed to be more suited to the close-quarters combat of urban guerilla warfare. I thought that the UK would likewise develop a similar tank, but Challenger 2A works well also. Same goes for the model of the B-2B. Good idea.

And the Wikipedia Article on the F-117 is not the best: In the intro paragraph it says that the fleet will be retired by 2008, (replaced by the F-22, not the F-35 as I said earlier) but later on, it says that they will still be in use until 2017 or 2025, so I suppose they're going in.

This is where I found the info about the Warrior being phased out, but it's one of the later changes, so I'll keep it for now.

I was also mistaken about the Osprey. I read in The Future of War that it, along with the Comanche Helicopter and some other projects, had been cancelled, but cancellations and re-instatements of future military programs appear to be fairly common.

Do you know what the status of the Comanche is now?

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Commanche was cancelled in early 2004, so it is dead as some doodoos, as Baldrick would put it. V-22 was cancelled by Cheney in his period as SecDef in the early 1990s, but reinstated. It went through a long and rough development, but has come out the other side, and is entering squadron service.

FRES was basically a British reply to Stryker and FCS; the lessons of further combat in Iraq, as well as the initial war, have shown the worth of armoured fighting vehicles, and particularly heavy MBTs.

F-117 will stick around for a bit, as the latter date indicates, especially with the rebadging of the F-22 from F/A-22 nominally indicating a move sideways from an insistence on mud pounding ability.

As for the tanks, I too have read Birmingham's works, which are quite interesting (won't spoil the second book for you), but the M1A3 was not given as a universal mod in my view; both types can be in service in the KTO - A3s for the close in work in the cities as defensive hub vehicles with the K1A1s and K1A2s and M1A2s for the counter punch against enemy armour and infantry. I do like the ideas of further future armoured vehicle developments

Your PoD and rationale for naming the vessel McCain are impeccable; however naming ceremonies, launching and precommissioning take place long before McCain's demise. Perhaps a second vessel bears his name - it is up to you.

(If we are dealing with alternate futures, then a piece of tube artillery to counterbattery the Koksan 170mm gun of the DPRK would be good, in addition to extended range fires from Crusaders, Paladins and MLRS. But, with the proliferation of missiles in most worlds and timelines, there is an anti-tube feeling. The point of this small rejoinder is that a piece of equipment can be rationalized and included if there is a need for it, such as smashing fortifications, digging out enplaced artillery, underground bunkers, and conducting long range missions in an environment where SAMs and particularly AAA proliferate, leading to a need to use either stealth, stand off missiles, or naval/ground based systems).

Further units:
French Foreign Legion units (2eme REP, armour, DBLE et al)
Navalised F-22 (abandoned on the drawing board in reality, but in a fictitious future...?)

 

[csa945]

Actually, I just finished Designated Targets.

 

[csa945]

There was something else I thought about last night: I heard that the US Air Force was painting the B2's gray so that they'd blend in with the daytime sky better than the black ones. Is that true?

If so, maybe I can find someone to re-skin the Stealth Bomber unit from the original game.

 

[William GBTW]

There was something else I thought about last night: I heard that the US Air Force was painting the B2's gray so that they'd blend in with the daytime sky better than the black ones. Is that true?

If so, maybe I can find someone to re-skin the Stealth Bomber unit from the original game.

They are; my pics of one certifies that; we need to build up a biiger fleet of B-2's and B-52's as well as modern ICBM's

 

[csa945]

and also why is Taiwan in here?

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to this.

There are a handful of reasons:

• It was on the map
• I was also trying to kill 2 birds with one stone (making scenarios of possible future US conflicts; if a war in Korea escalates to a war between the US and China, then the invasion of Taiwan is a given.

As for why I picked this map, I wanted Japan on it. The DPRK has launched a 3-stage missile over it before, and I wouldn't be surprised if Kim nukes them in a war.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

F-117s were being contemplated as being painted grey at one stage, and performed some dawn/early morning missions back in 2003. I have not heard anything from the usual suspects about the B2, although this is not to say that it has not occured.

Enabling a whole North East Asia war is a good option, although it must be ensured that the Allies have enough moxie to cope with the ChiComm hordes.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

the naval F-22 you think of goes by a different name: the F-35 JSF. there is no F-22, it's not strong enough to land or be shot from a carrier.

also i really hadnt thought about the China-US war, but if thats not the focus of this mod, then id leave them out for emtpy space just the same, and delete the settlers. Japan i understand though, given it's proximity to the Korean peninusla.

The new kind of carrier is designated like CVX or something, i saw a concept drawing of it and it looks freakin crazy, i cant wait to see one (or fly from it )

 

[Simon Darkshade]

The F-35 is a completely different aircraft to the F-22, resulting from a different requirement. A NATF was briefly mooted around the time of the various shennanigans over the Super Tomcat, Tomcat 21 etc in the early 1990s. The Navy was involved for a little while in the ATF, and then looked at it again after the A-12 was cancelled. The problem was with the airframe being too heavy to land and launch, not the other way around.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/natf.htm
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0132.shtml

However, in an AH/AF, many things are possible.

CVN-21 is the next generation USN aircraft carrier, variously also known as CVX or CVNX; the -21 suffix was from the late 1990s, when it also associated with DD-21 and CG-21, the former being stillborn and the latter simply rebadged with a mysterious X. However, it currently appears that CVN-21 is the label used.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

oh believe me i know all about the JSF. I live is So. Maryland near NAS Patuxent River, my father is one of the guys working on and had worked on testing the JSF, both as an X plane and now getting it ready for production. He also worked on the F-35's competitor from Boeing, the one that looks like a newer A-7 on crack. They fly over my house every day. So yea i know about the JSF and that its different from the Raptor, but they are quite similar in many respects, and are intended to complement each other, along with the F-18 E/F Super Hornet in battle.

As far as carriers go, i believe this CVX is supposed to be 1/4 larger than the Nimitz carriers?

Oh i with they'd kept the Super Tomcat though, they were just too expensive to maintain though. The last of them was delivered to NAS Oceana last month i believe. Too bad, i'd have loved to've climbed into one of those bad boys