The self-defeating nature of using "Privilege (Theory)" (in societal discourse)

[Archon_Wing]

As with all generalizations, it cannot be applied to individuals. It doesn't mean that since I'm a man, I'm inherently oppressing all women by existing. But it's probably true that I would feel safer walking home at night and not have to worry as much about being sexually harassed.That doesn't mean that there is no woman that can't be more privileged than me either. And I'm sure there's someone in It's also an issue because male victims of abuse aren't believed. (That's an example of how being a member of a privileged group can hurt you as an individual) But that doesn't change what I was originally talking about.

I mean if I say Somalia is a poor country, that's like saying "well, there's this one billionaire there, and he's richer than you!" I mean.... all things being equal.

So you're right in the sense that it is foolish to apply it mindlessly because it's like using a telescope on an ant, but at the same time it's not inherently worthless. It's just worthless if you use it for purposes it was never intended for. It's not a crystal ball!

It's actually kind of like stereotypes. Stereotypical people of any group do exist, you know, which is why they came about in the first place, but you're kind of a dick for making those assumptions about someone you've never met.

Also, not referring to people specifically, but I find it interesting in modern political discourse, those that often throw in the talking about of "white people can be oppressed too!" (duh) will rush to defend those "natural differences" between people of different genders and race. Hmm....

 

[Azem.Ocram]

https://quillette.com/2018/08/18/th...-up-harmed-the-science-fiction-fantasy-world/

Wealthy sci-fi authors of color harassed and trolled underprivileged white Americans. One of the worst offenders is Sarah Jeong, who was born into more wealth than the people she trolled and is in a demographic more likely to graduate from college and work for successful companies. They argue that they are fighting racism but are themselves racist. If racism requires racial privilege, then Asians can be racist. If reverse racism requires non-racial privileges, then wealthy PoC’s can be reverse racist.

My opinion is that we should all try to get along and that hateful people shouldn’t be rewarded and should be stripped of their awards whenever proven to have written hateful tirades during the period of time when the award-winnning works were created.

 

[NovaKart]

I'm not sure how these can be framed as "advantages of being female" except by the most simplistic possible analysis. Women, by and large, are not in charge of the systems that are producing these outcomes.



The problem I have is that most of the things people frame as "female advantages" are really outcomes that happen because of how women are perceived by men. Women get custody in disputes more frequently because of a family law system overwhelmingly constructed by and administered by men. Men die on the job in workplaces designed and run by other men. Men are most of the soldiers in militaries created and led overwhelmingly by men.



This is an actual advantage.



Again...systems constructed and controlled by men, blah blah blah

A lot of sexism against women is enforced by other women. Like people often say that women dress for other women and they seem to judge one another more harshly for how they dress. Most men don’t notice women’s clothing, makeup and hairstyles as much.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You missed out the bit where you explain why clothing and makeup is sexist.

 

[miaasma]

A lot of sexism against women is enforced by other women. Like people often say that women dress for other women and they seem to judge one another more harshly for how they dress. Most men don’t notice women’s clothing, makeup and hairstyles as much.

this is a really shallow interpretation of sexism

especially since any woman who 'enforces' sexism in this way is only upholding standards put in place by men

also, men certainly notice makeup and hairstyles, just not in as conscious of a way as women do

 

[NovaKart]

They enforce it by judging other women for how they look. Makeup and clothes aren’t sexist in themselves.

I don’t see any evidence this was put in place by men.

Traditionally societies give both men and women certain privileges and obligations and these are often enforced more so by people of the same gender.

Men didn’t just get together one day and tell women to start wearing makeup.

 

[Lexicus]

They enforce it by judging other women for how they look. Makeup and clothes aren’t sexist in themselves.

I don’t see any evidence this was put in place by men.

So you think that women wear makeup primarily to impress other women?

 

[NovaKart]

Not so specifically makeup but I do think women often dress up more because of what other women will say.

 

[Lexicus]

Not so specifically makeup but I do think women often dress up more because of what other women will say.

I don't think this is true at all. I won't presume to speak for miaasma but I believe "men got together one day and tell women to start wearing makeup" is a gross mischaracterization of the argument he was making.

Basically, the point is that when men hold all the cards (or pretty much all the cards) in society, behavior (among both sexes) is going to be calibrated in the medium-to-long-term to get the approval of men. There are studies showing that wearing makeup leads to more professional success for women in the US. Men occupy almost all of the leadership roles that are relevant to this context.

I mean really, blaming women for the unrealistic standards of appearance women are held to by men seems a bit much...

 

[miaasma]

yes, well, "a bit much" is pretty par for the course around here

You missed out the bit where you explain why clothing and makeup is sexist.

this response was clearly typed by somebody who wanted something explained to them

 

[Lexicus]

this response was clearly typed by somebody who wanted something explained to them

Clearly. A martyr in the long war for Truth and Light, against Ignorance and Darkness.

 

[miaasma]

me, smirking in my chair, clever rebuttal already written: Please, take time out of your day to explain your point of view to me. I'm ever so interested.

 

[NovaKart]

I don't think this is true at all. I won't presume to speak for miaasma but I believe "men got together one day and tell women to start wearing makeup" is a gross mischaracterization of the argument he was making.

Basically, the point is that when men hold all the cards (or pretty much all the cards) in society, behavior (among both sexes) is going to be calibrated in the medium-to-long-term to get the approval of men. There are studies showing that wearing makeup leads to more professional success for women in the US. Men occupy almost all of the leadership roles that are relevant to this context.

I mean really, blaming women for the unrealistic standards of appearance women are held to by men seems a bit much...

My post was in response to yours which dismissed sexism against men when it comes from other men.

I pointed out that women do this to other women as well. If you treat people differently because of gender it’s sexism even if that person is the same gender.

And I stand by my opinion that women do this with other women as often and probably more than men. And I don’t think men hold all the cards by a longshot.

 

[Lexicus]

My post was in response to yours which dismissed sexism against men when it comes from other men.

I wasn't "dismissing" it - I am trying to say that framing these things as something women do to men is obviously incorrect. There is no question that men are also harmed by patriarchy. But women aren't responsible for the presumption in favor of the mother in family law cases. They aren't responsible for the fact that they don't get conscripted. They, in short, are not responsible for how the patriarchy works.

And I stand by my opinion that women do this with other women as often and probably more than men. And I don’t think men hold all the cards by a longshot.

Okay, so you're in denial about the nature of our societies, nothing I didn't already know.

 

[miaasma]

My post was in response to yours which dismissed sexism against men when it comes from other men.

I pointed out that women do this to other women as well. If you treat people differently because of gender it’s sexism even if that person is the same gender.

And I stand by my opinion that women do this with other women as often and probably more than men. And I don’t think men hold all the cards by a longshot.

do you think about why women might do this, though, or do your thoughts about it end there? where do you think beauty standards for women began? do you think they sprang up from nowhere? do you think society is by and large patriarchal?

women adhering to beauty standards and judging other women for not doing so (or not doing so 'properly') may be, on the surface, participating in what you think is sexism, but all they're really doing is playing into a larger set of expectations that men have, historically, projected onto women

sexism also neither begins or ends with judging other people's appearances - i know you never said that it did, but if we're going to discuss 'privilege' we can't limit ourselves to comparatively benign manifestations of whatever ism we're discussing - and while your opinion may be that women judge other women more often than men (i'd amend this to women judge other women differently than men do), something as socially ingrained as sexism cannot only be analyzed by what is spoken out loud

 

[Narz]

What are some 'advantages of being female' anyway?

Much less jail time for the same crime.

Bias against men in family court.

Live longer.

Much lower suicide rate.

A study showed if you tell people that an infant is female they will give it more affection, respond quicker to its crying. That's pretty primal advantage right there, right out of the gate.

Women and children get saved first in a disaster.

Environmental toxins often hit men harder.

Male children more likely to be accused of being disruptive and drugged up for being "disordered"

 

[miaasma]

Much lower suicide rate.

men successfully commit suicide at a much higher rate than women, but women attempt suicide more frequently than men do. none of this has anything to do with privilege, because nobody afforded women a lower suicide rate. this more belongs in a discussion about the psychological differences between women and men, why men likely use more lethal means of committing suicide, what factors cause suicidal ideation in women vs men, etc

much of your post doesn't really address privilege in the context of this thread, and the couple of parts that did more have to do with men screwing each other over rather than women having any perceived power over men

 

[Akka]

"tell me which are the advantages, so I can redefine them as not being relevant and ask the same question again until I can claim that you can't present any and I've won"

(for the record, I think that men are in a much better position than women in our society, but being honest about this doesn't mean I can't see when someone is being of pure bad faith while supporting the same opinion)

 

[Lexicus]

much of your post doesn't really address privilege in the context of this thread, and the couple of parts that did more have to do with men screwing each other over rather than women having any perceived power over men

As we all know, the justice system and military are overwhelmingly controlled by women - wait, what? You mean they're actually not? Oh I guess I don't have a point then....

 

[miaasma]

"tell me which are the advantages, so I can redefine them as not being relevant and ask the same question again until I can claim that you can't present any and I've won"

pointing out any issue with somebody's answer constitutes moving the goal posts and therefore all criticism of a response is invalid

i didn't use any quotation marks but i'm sure you get my point

i'm sure