The thread for space cadets!

[hobbsyoyo]

This is a good article on the pros and cons of the two American engines meant to replace the Russian-made RD-180 on the Atlas V. It was written just before ULA officially announced that Blue Origin would be providing the engines for the Vulcan rocket (Atlas' replacement).

The conclusion is that the AR-1 (Aerojet's engine) clearly is not as good as the RD-180. It's more expensive, has less thrust and may still yet have lower specific impulse. In contrast, the BE-4 is on par with the RD-180. It's got a bit more than half the thrust but is intended to be dual-mounted. It's specific impulse is higher and for all Vulcan configurations except the naked-core variant, it will significantly reduce the cost of the overall rocket or dramatically increase the payload. That's because two BE-4's have over a third again more thrust than RD-180 which is roughly equivalent to an SRB. This means you can fly with one less SRB for the same amount of payload - and each SRB costs $10 million, more than the difference in cost between two BE-4's and a single RD-180.


The really surprising thing is how reliant Energomash is on the export of the RD-180 for Atlas. Roughly half of their total budget comes from sales to ULA for Atlas.

 

[uppi]

This means you can fly with one less SRB for the same amount of payload - and each SRB costs $10 million, more than the difference in cost between two BE-4's and a single RD-180.

One less SRB might not always be an option for balance reasons (Flying with one instead of two is probably a very bad idea ). So sometimes you would just have to go for the increased payload.


In other news: Facing historically low poll numbers for the upcoming election next week and having noticed that hating on immigrants apparently doesn't fetch as many votes as he thought, the prime minister of Bavaria has announced that what Bavaria needs is its own space program! Dubbed "Bavaria One" it is supposed to fund research and development on satellites and rockets. This has drawn a lot of criticism and jokes at his expense, mainly because of the grandstanding way this has been announced, but at its core it is probably not a bad idea. It remains to be seen, how much of it will survive the political turmoil that will most likely follow the elections.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

One less SRB might not always be an option for balance reasons (Flying with one instead of two is probably a very bad idea ). So sometimes you would just have to go for the increased payload.

The Atlas V (which Vulcan is replacing) already features a single-SRB variant as well asymmetrical SRB mounting clusters.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

The single-SRB version get pushed sideways quite a bit during the initial climb-out as you can see in this video (T-0 at about 00:20) and in the third spoiler below.

Spoiler :

This weird arrangement is due to pressurized gas lines that route outside the rocket to move fluid between tanks inside it. Those transfer tubes plus the location of an avionics bay means they couldn't strap boosters onto it symmetrically and once they were resigned to that fact they went ahead and pushed the concept to the extreme with the single-SRB case. They can still fly correctly due to thrust vectoring of the various nozzles on the Atlas' engines.

Atlas V was not conceived to use SRBs - the original design called for a heavy variant that would strap three cores together. This heavy version never materialized due to business reasons* and after introduction they swiftly introduced SRB-equipped variants to add payload capability to the base core.



The Russians/Ukrainians pitched a similar (but liquid-fueled) asymmetrical booster concept for the Zenit rocket in about 2000.

Spoiler :

This arrangement actually goes directly back to the Zenit's original use - as detachable side boosters for the Energia launcher for the Buran shuttle.

Spoiler :

*The three-core version was supposed to happen in the mid-2000's/early 2010's but by that time Lockheed (the maker of Atlas) had merged their rocket division with Boeing's rocket division to form ULA. Boeing brought the triple-cored Delta IV Heavy to the newly merged company and this obviated the need for an Atlas Heavy. However, by adding varying amounts of SRBs to the basic Atlas they could fill a lot of payload niches between what the basic Atlas and the Delta IV-Heavy could offer.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

In other news: Facing historically low poll numbers for the upcoming election next week and having noticed that hating on immigrants apparently doesn't fetch as many votes as he thought, the prime minister of Bavaria has announced that what Bavaria needs is its own space program! Dubbed "Bavaria One" it is supposed to fund research and development on satellites and rockets. This has drawn a lot of criticism and jokes at his expense, mainly because of the grandstanding way this has been announced, but at its core it is probably not a bad idea. It remains to be seen, how much of it will survive the political turmoil that will most likely follow the elections.

What is th emission statement of the Bavarian space agency?

Also, if Germany itself already has a space agency then why does Bavaria mean? This is really neat nonetheless. It kind of reminds of the new climate-changing observation satellite bought by the State of California here in the US. While this doesn't constitute a formal space agency, it is neat that the satellite will be built in this state, launched from a launchpad here (Vandenberg AFB) from a rocket likely built here (Falcon, Electron) and commanded by a mission control in San Francisco.

 

[uppi]

The Atlas V (which Vulcan is replacing) already features a single-SRB variant as well asymmetrical SRB mounting clusters.

Cool. That is the sort of thing you only really appreciate after several spectacular fails with imbalanced rockets in KSP.

What is th emission statement of the Bavarian space agency?

Also, if Germany itself already has a space agency then why does Bavaria mean? This is really neat nonetheless. It kind of reminds of the new climate-changing observation satellite bought by the State of California here in the US. While this doesn't constitute a formal space agency, it is neat that the satellite will be built in this state, launched from a launchpad here (Vandenberg AFB) from a rocket likely built here (Falcon, Electron) and commanded by a mission control in San Francisco.

It doesn't need so much its own space agency as the current government wants one. But I suppose, if you want to boost the space industry in the state (which seems to be the goal), some local officials can be more effective and offer more control than contributing to the national space agency. However, it is not clear at all how much of a space agency it is going to be or even whether the current plans are going to survive the election.

 

[Silurian]

Maybe. That seems like a good indication. I know that there were furnaces that routed leak by from the cutoff valves to feed the pilot light. Sort of a constant "flare off" approach. Cars leak everything, all the time, which is why garages have ventilation requirements so if they leaked a little methane that wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary. As Hobbs referenced there is just so much of it coming up out of a well that even a small percentage of leakage can accumulate into a lot of free methane running loose, so production facilities would consider it a more substantial issue than a house or a car.

It has been a very long time since containment of methane was of concern to me, though, other than holding in a fart until an appropriate moment. These issues may all be just holdovers from a bygone age.

We have been using gas from the North Sea since the 1970s here in the UK. I cook and heat with gas.

We are starting to trial the injection of hydrogen into the pipes as a partial replacement. Existing equipment can use it up to 30%.So it could be a good way of using unwanted renewable electricity if the cost of the plant is less than the value of the gas. The Germans and Dutch are already doing it to a limited extent.

https://www.hydrogenics.com/2015/10...ge-facility-using-hydrogenics-pem-technology/

 

[trader/warrior]

Just... wow.

 

[Cutlass]

Just... wow.

What caused that effect?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

SOYUZ LAUNCH FAILURE

Something went wrong during today's launch and the abort system was activated. The astronuat and cosmonaut on board were unharmed. Boeing and SpaceX need to hurry the hell up with their crewed capsules.


The manned program was the last relatively unblemished part of the Russian space agency and now even that can't aboid the massive quality problems that have long affected their unmanned launches.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

What caused that effect?

They launched at dusk such that it was dark on the ground but once the rocket was a few miles up it was in sunlight and fully illuminated. All of the pulses and discharges we're from the first stage attitude control system re-orienting the rocket for re-entry and the second stage powering on to orbit.

I went outside to see it but here in Irivine it was cloudy and I couldn't see anything. The rest of LA got quite a light show.

 

[Broken_Erika]

SOYUZ LAUNCH FAILURE

Something went wrong during today's launch and the abort system was activated. The astronuat and cosmonaut on board were unharmed. Boeing and SpaceX need to hurry the hell up with their crewed capsules.


The manned program was the last relatively unblemished part of the Russian space agency and now even that can't aboid the massive quality problems that have long affected their unmanned launches.

Soyuz fall down go boom.

 

[peter grimes]

Just... wow.

That's one of the more beautiful things I've seen lately.

I wish there were a frame-by-frame!

 

[Lexicus]

They launched at dusk such that it was dark on the ground but once the rocket was a few miles up it was in sunlight and fully illuminated. All of the pulses and discharges we're from the first stage attitude control system re-orienting the rocket for re-entry and the second stage powering on to orbit.

I went outside to see it but here in Irivine it was cloudy and I couldn't see anything. The rest of LA got quite a light show.

So, how come it explodes outward the way it does? About one second in the vapor trail, like, mushrooms out or whatever, where before it looked like a line.

 

[red_elk]

Soyuz never had accidents involving launch failure, since 1975
Luckily, people are alive, but problems with Russian space industry are becoming more and more evident.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So, how come it explodes outward the way it does? About one second in the vapor trail, like, mushrooms out or whatever, where before it looked like a line.

That's the ignition of the second stage engines, plus attitude correction during the brief unpowered interval as the first stage falls away, plus the little motors firing to make the first stage fall where it is supposed to. All of that stuff is happening at the same time, and involves motors firing in different directions. Up to that point all that was firing was the first stage engines blasting in a straight line. Afterwards in fairly short order it's back to just the second stage engines firing, again in a straight line.

 

[Michkov]

That's one of the more beautiful things I've seen lately.

I wish there were a frame-by-frame!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinmgill/albums/72157698969464442/with/44270168605/

 

[r16]

typical Putinesque kow tow now that Lockmart has to live with the flight ban imposed on the Footpad .

yeah , it's a coherent depiction of events where America can not live in failure in isolation .

 

[elmurcis]

Soyuz never had accidents involving launch failure, since 1975
Luckily, people are alive, but problems with Russian space industry are becoming more and more evident.

No matter politics behind anything (living in country that was almost 50 yrs under Soviet "shield" before got back independence) but I always looked to Soyuz as one of space era "classics" that never fail despite its design or age (if it works, it works, right?). Just not great quality of production or some bad upgrade/improvement issue?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

So, how come it explodes outward the way it does? About one second in the vapor trail, like, mushrooms out or whatever, where before it looked like a line.

@Timsup2nothin was 100% correct. The Falcon's ability to land is unique and it has all these ACS (attitude control system) engines all over the top of the first stage to facilitate that. They pulse these little engines to re-orient the first stage to fly backwards toward the coast after stage separation. Between those, the second stage engine and the first stage engines, things get really busy during stage separation. They even put ACS thrusters on the fairings to re-orient those for re-entry as well though I don't think they attempted to recover the fairings on this mission.

This is a picture of the ACS engines on the first stage firing in a vain attempt to right the stage during a failed landing.

The key difference between SpaceX and just about everyone else is how willing they are to keep trying crazy ****, fail at it, then regroup and try again until they succeed.

Soyuz never had accidents involving launch failure, since 1975
Luckily, people are alive, but problems with Russian space industry are becoming more and more evident.

Yeah, for a while the manned program was the lone holdout as far as major failures go in the Russian space program. It's sad that this affected them.

No matter politics behind anything (living in country that was almost 50 yrs under Soviet "shield" before got back independence) but I always looked to Soyuz as one of space era "classics" that never fail despite its design or age (if it works, it works, right?). Just not great quality of production or some bad upgrade/improvement issue?

I think it's been a couple of years since the last major upgrade to the Soyuz. Over the years the basic design has been relatively stable and they have been mostly improving the avionics. I think this failure is a symptom of the massive quality issues that the Russians have been having.

It also does not help the situation that they are not adequately funding their space program and are heavily reliant on US exports to subsidize their own activities. RD-180 engine sales for the Atlas rocket make up 60% of the entire budget of Energia (one of their main rocket manufacturers) which is a bad situation to be in given the Atlas is being phased out.

 

[Lexicus]

That's interesting, wouldn't have expected the steering thrusters to create that kind of visual effect. But what do I know, nothing apparently.