The thread for space cadets!

[Winner]

I really, really hope Skylon works and doesn't fall apart as a project because of financial concerns. That would be a real shame.

That makes two of us.

 

[Winner]

-> ESA to build Orion's service module

-> We'll see how long/well this cooperation lasts.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Interesting article Winner. I wonder why NASA decided to go that route.

2017 before the first unmanned test flight? Goddamn it we have gone so far down since the Apollo Program. Why don't we just hand over all of NASA's budget to SpaceX et al.

I'm sometimes wonder why the hell the ESA doesn't have it's own manned program. That agency is so capable and does so many great things. Why not send their own Euronauts into space?

 

[Crezth]

2017 before the first unmanned test flight? Goddamn it we have gone so far down since the Apollo Program. Why don't we just hand over all of NASA's budget to SpaceX et al.

We're getting to that point.

Non-cheeky reply: Then the only difference between NASA and SpaceX would be who is accountable to what. One is accountable to hundreds of old white guys in suits with interests to consider, and... well, I guess they'd pretty much be the same.

Elon Musk is a bit pie-in-the-sky, he's arrogant and he's crazy, but he has ambition, and at this point that's enough for most space nuts. NASA is very interested in seeing how well the Falcon X works.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I remember talking with Winner about how everything that flies in space is a one off experimental item.

Well this just might change that.

 

[Winner]

Interesting article Winner. I wonder why NASA decided to go that route.

No idea, it makes little sense from the American perspective.

I'm sometimes wonder why the hell the ESA doesn't have it's own manned program. That agency is so capable and does so many great things. Why not send their own Euronauts into space?

It does that; it's just that it is generally believed among the member states that there isn't enough money to do it independently. So long as the Americans or the Russians (or maybe commercial subjects, later) can give its people a lift to space for a reasonable price, there will be little impetus to develop an independent human spaceflight capability.

Not that there aren't advocates of a more assertive European spaceflight programme, but as far as I know, they're in a minority.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

This just in, the rumors were dead wrong.

Mars rover Curiosity has completed its first soil analysis of the Red Planet with no sign of organic material, the U.S. space agency said on Thursday.

"Rumors and speculation that there are major new findings from the mission at this early stage are incorrect," NASA said in a statement. "At this point, the instruments on the rover have not detected any definitive evidence of Martian organics."

In other news:
Space construction just got significantly easier.

When lunar colonists need a new tool or replacement part to fix a broken spacecraft leg, all they’ll need to do is scoop up some moon rocks and feed them into a 3-D printer, suggests a new proof-of-concept study.

The ability to use material already on the moon to build things and fix equipment could save earthlings a bundle of money in fuel costs since they won’t have to haul everything they need to their lunar outposts

I had a debate with someone about space construction a while back. This blurb would have been hella useful then.

_______________________
Pictures:

Spoiler :

A picture of some pretty clouds on Mars

Spoiler :

Taken on Mars

 

[Winner]

Printing is fine, but where you're going to get the raw materials? Lunar regolith is just very fine dirt - you can of course glassify it, but to extract metals and other elements from it, you need to industrially process it.

Also:

-> NASA ponders Mars Sample Return mission launched by the SLS

An SLS-class heavy-lifter would enable truly robust planetary missions.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Printing is fine, but where you're going to get the raw materials? Lunar regolith is just very fine dirt - you can of course glassify it, but to extract metals and other elements from it, you need to industrially process it.

But if you are going to have any kind of infrastructure or human presence to do mining or other non-robotic tasks, you first have to have some buildings. This is perfect for that.

Also:

-> NASA ponders Mars Sample Return mission launched by the SLS

An SLS-class heavy-lifter would enable truly robust planetary missions.

Nice, here's hoping they don't cancel it after 2016!

 

[Winner]

But if you are going to have any kind of infrastructure or human presence to do mining or other non-robotic tasks, you first have to have some buildings. This is perfect for that.

You don't need 3D printing to make mooncrete and bricks...

Nice, here's hoping they don't cancel it after 2016!

Well, clearly it hinges on whether the Senate Launch System will ever fly. If not, then let's see if the SpaceX boasts about building a HLV are realistic.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Spoiler :

Taken on Mars

That's pretty amazing. Mars isn't new, but seeing the horizon and earth as a bright dot at the same time... It looks like it could've been taken from earth and almost gives a human touch to the picture. It's a nice perspective.

 

[Winner]

That's pretty amazing. Mars isn't new, but seeing the horizon and earth as a bright dot at the same time... It looks like it could've been taken from earth and almost gives a human touch to the picture. It's a nice perspective.

Would have been better in colour. Earth shouldn't be much less bright than Venus is from Earth, but it should look blue. A blue morning/evening star, lovely.

---

Also,

MESSENGER found water on Mercury's poles

-> I call dibbs on it if nobody has done so yet Mercury could potentially be the gold mine of the Solar System. It's pretty deep in Sun's gravity well, all right, but the amount of solar power you get there per square metre is ridiculously high. With minerals from Mercury's crust and volatiles from the ice deposits on its poles, we should be able to build huge solar powered factories and anti-matter farms on or around the planet, and profit accordingly.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Would have been better in colour. Earth shouldn't be much less bright than Venus is from Earth, but it should look blue. A blue morning/evening star, lovely.

Spacegod almighty!

Can you just appreciate it for what it is and not knock it for it isn't?

Also, the pale blue dot picture is in color IIRC and there very well may be color photos of Earth from Mars. I wasn't even searching for that picture, it just popped up in an unrelated search.

You don't need 3D printing to make mooncrete and bricks...

But it doesn't hurt to find new ways to make use of lunar materials?

Well, clearly it hinges on whether the Senate Launch System will ever fly. If not, then let's see if the SpaceX boasts about building a HLV are realistic.

I know and it's sad. I would say though that it is probably more dependent on who wins the next presidential election and what direction they want to take NASA in. Senators will fight for the program because of the jobs it creates in their districts; Presidents have a more detached perspective on programs than this in most cases.

That's pretty amazing. Mars isn't new, but seeing the horizon and earth as a bright dot at the same time... It looks like it could've been taken from earth and almost gives a human touch to the picture. It's a nice perspective.

It is beautiful.
One picture - the entire human race in it.

The fact that we have come so far from spear chugging cave dwellers is phenomenal. Not only that, but it is a testament to the power of life itself that it can conciously spread itself beyond the cradle, so to speak.

 

[Winner]

Can you just appreciate it for what it is and not knock it for it isn't?

I am not "knocking" (what does it mean in this context?) anything. I am saying I would be more impressed by a nice blue star over the horizon I understand what the significance of that is (I often watched the earthrise in Celestia and especially Orbiter, after I first managed to land on Mars).

But it doesn't hurt to find new ways to make use of lunar materials?

I feel I am being misunderstood again. I am not downplaying 3D printing, I just want to know how they plan to get the raw materials for it to be of use on the Moon. I've read something about this a while ago, and I got the impression that processing lunar dirt and rocks isn't as easy as people may think - the Moon lacks volatiles which we require for many industrial processes. For example getting the aluminium out of the regolith would be pretty damn hard. Even simple iron is hard to extract without some carbon.

On other forums I've often seen people who think that you just come to a planet/moon, shovel some dirt into a 3D printer, and you build yourself a colony. As always, I am just a tad sceptical, if for no other reason, then pre-emptively

I know and it's sad. I would say though that it is probably more dependent on who wins the next presidential election and what direction they want to take NASA in. Senators will fight for the program because of the jobs it creates in their districts; Presidents have a more detached perspective on programs than this in most cases.

What never ceases to amaze me is how little attention people pay to the most important and most noble of endeavours humankind can embark on.

Oh well, back to wars and watching football, that'll surely help us more in the long run...

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

I am not "knocking" (what does it mean in this context?) anything. I am saying I would be more impressed by a nice blue star over the horizon I understand what the significance of that is (I often watched the earthrise in Celestia and especially Orbiter, after I first managed to land on Mars.)

Have you ever watched sunrises or sunsets on circumbinaries (not necessarily the keplaer ones )? I've always found those rather pretty.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I am not "knocking" (what does it mean in this context?) anything. I am saying I would be more impressed by a nice blue star over the horizon I understand what the significance of that is (I often watched the earthrise in Celestia and especially Orbiter, after I first managed to land on Mars).

My bad. I thought you were putting the pictures down, making them out to be stupid (what I meant by knocking - to 'knock' in this context means to belittle).

I feel I am being misunderstood again. I am not downplaying 3D printing, I just want to know how they plan to get the raw materials for it to be of use on the Moon.

It takes unprocessed regolith and makes stuff out of it. This could be quite useful in make things that don't require a specific composition but rather only require certain properties like tensile strength, etc and need to be in a specific shape. Sure, their are lots of ways to make things out of regolith, this is just another one.

I've read something about this a while ago, and I got the impression that processing lunar dirt and rocks isn't as easy as people may think - the Moon lacks volatiles which we require for many industrial processes. For example getting the aluminium out of the regolith would be pretty damn hard. Even simple iron is hard to extract without some carbon.

This process isn't mean to extract anything, it just makes shapes out of plain old regolith. IIRC, it didn't require many additives, but did require some.

On other forums I've often seen people who think that you just come to a planet/moon, shovel some dirt into a 3D printer, and you build yourself a colony. As always, I am just a tad sceptical, if for no other reason, then pre-emptively

Well, it depends on what they mean by 'making a colony'. Surely, you are going to need lots of other materials than just regolith to make a colony. But to make, say, basic, radiation-resistant shelters/buildings, all you really need is regolith and then something to line it with to make it air-tight. Those buildings are going to be the bulk of the colony and consequently require the bulk of materials to make. Being able to process regolith in a way that makes it a construction material saves a ton of weight from the stuff you don't have to bring from Earth.

What never ceases to amaze me is how little attention people pay to the most important and most noble of endeavours humankind can embark on.

Oh well, back to wars and watching football, that'll surely help us more in the long run...

I know! How the hell did all of the excitement and enthusiasm for space travel/exploration go away?

 

[bugwar]

What never ceases to amaze me is how little attention people pay to the most important and most noble of endeavours humankind can embark on.

Oh well, back to wars and watching football, that'll surely help us more in the long run...

What ceased to amaze me some time ago is how shocked a small minority of people are that the bulk of humanity are not that interested in throwing metal chunks at the sky.
The bulk of the species has more interests than just space exploration, and are willing to pursue other noble goals at the expense of the rock ape crowd.

 

[Winner]

It takes unprocessed regolith and makes stuff out of it. This could be quite useful in make things that don't require a specific composition but rather only require certain properties like tensile strength, etc and need to be in a specific shape. Sure, their are lots of ways to make things out of regolith, this is just another one.

This process isn't mean to extract anything, it just makes shapes out of plain old regolith. IIRC, it didn't require many additives, but did require some.

Well yeah, but what is this stuff the printer produces then? Glass? I am not sure that's the kind of building material I'd like to make mechanical parts like wheels or trusses from.

Well, it depends on what they mean by 'making a colony'. Surely, you are going to need lots of other materials than just regolith to make a colony. But to make, say, basic, radiation-resistant shelters/buildings, all you really need is regolith and then something to line it with to make it air-tight. Those buildings are going to be the bulk of the colony and consequently require the bulk of materials to make. Being able to process regolith in a way that makes it a construction material saves a ton of weight from the stuff you don't have to bring from Earth.

Sure, but my question remains - what makes the 3D printer so revolutionary here? If I could make industrial-grade mechanical parts, then it's awesome - but I doubt it can do it without supply of suitable raw materials (metals, plastics, etc.). 3D printer doesn't make this stuff, it just shapes it into the final product.

That's why I don't understand what the fuss is about, because as far as I know, if you "melt" regolith, the end product is some form of glass. Furthermore, you don't need 3D printing to make bricks or mooncrete structures, so it's not essential for early development of the settlements.

(Bah, I am just rambling incoherently now. My point in short: it's a nice thing, let's continue developing it, but don't present it as a miraculous Star Trek replicator that makes stuff out of dirt).

I know! How the hell did all of the excitement and enthusiasm for space travel/exploration go away?

And what about common sense? I mean, what's our long term plan? Stay on Earth forever, or until we frak it up? All it takes is literally one guy pushing a button and we're screwed as a civilization, probably forever. It should be obvious to everybody that the sooner we establish colonies on other bodies in space, the odds of our long-term survival will go up quite a bit. And who knows, perhaps we will profit some in the process.

Instead, we're wasting our resources and creative energies on trifles.

Have you ever watched sunrises or sunsets on circumbinaries (not necessarily the keplaer ones )? I've always found those rather pretty.

Planets around binary stars in general have interesting sunrises/sets. It must be interesting to have a "mini-sun" in the sky in night for most of the year...

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Well yeah, but what is this stuff the printer produces then? Glass? I am not sure that's the kind of building material I'd like to make mechanical parts like wheels or trusses from.

I wouldn't rule this out as the machine is refined - we already print mechanical parts on 3D printers on Earth. For one, we don't know the properties of true regolith glass, for another reduced gravity will mean reduced stress on at least some parts. There is also a strong case to be made in using this printed glass for construction materials.

Sure, but my question remains - what makes the 3D printer so revolutionary here?

It's great because you don't have to bring pre-fabbed molds and equipment to make a given shape or object. It also lets you adjust the composition on the fly. It's not so much revolutionary as an evolutionary development on the efforts to make stuff in space.

That's why I don't understand what the fuss is about, because as far as I know, if you "melt" regolith, the end product is some form of glass. Furthermore, you don't need 3D printing to make bricks or mooncrete structures, so it's not essential for early development of the settlements.

In any case, glass is useful as a construction material in it's own right, especially when you have unlimited amounts of it and less gravity to contend with. Quantity has a quality all it's own or something.

And you don't need 3D printing to make really anything. This just saves on weight by cutting out the need for things like molds and machines to make molds or lathes and machines to make lathes (and so on) to create objects the 'traditional way'. In fact, this machine might be able to make the molds (and many other things unrelated to moon bricks) to make the moon bricks with.

(Bah, I am just rambling incoherently now. My point in short: it's a nice thing, let's continue developing it, but don't present it as a miraculous Star Trek replicator that makes stuff out of dirt).

Fair enough. I'll redact the word 'significantly' from the link I used earlier in post #447.

And what about common sense? I mean, what's our long term plan? Stay on Earth forever, or until we frak it up? All it takes is literally one guy pushing a button and we're screwed as a civilization, probably forever. It should be obvious to everybody that the sooner we establish colonies on other bodies in space, the odds of our long-term survival will go up quite a bit. And who knows, perhaps we will profit some in the process.

Instead, we're wasting our resources and creative energies on trifles.

Preaching to the choir here. You would think these things are self-evident and worthwhile to the average person. Guess not though.

Edit: Reread article, had to rewrite a lot of this post.

 

[bugwar]

Preaching to the choir here. You would think these things are self-evident and worthwhile to the average person. Guess not though.

Yep.
The bulk of humanity doesn't share your view.
Looks like either your group did a poor job of explaining, or they evaluated your arguments and found them wanting.