The thread for space cadets!

The new private driven space-race just ramped up a bit. This will apparently have less thrust than the falcon heavy though, curious about the differences in performance and payload size, this looks so much bigger, but I guess it has to be when it does not use strapped boosters. Also I don't like their naming scheme. Paying tribute to the space-pioneers is cool and all but "New Glenn" doesn't sound very rocket-y... And no "New Gagarin"? Damn space-nationalists. :p

https://www.wired.com/2016/09/blue-orgins-new-glenn-rocket/
xPNcVO3.jpg
 
Their old "New Shepard" couldn't, but this newly announced "New Glenn" is supposed to do exactly what the SpaceX Falcon 9 does, returning to land from orbit, and is much larger and more powerful. The 3-stage New Glenn could be Mars-capable stuff, a huge leap from what they did before, granted they haven't really demonstrated this yet.

Edit: And just to not give the impression that SpaceX is falling behind, at the end of this month there is a very high chance that they will announce something on an order of magnitude bigger than even this, currently going by the simple call-name of the Big F'in Rocket ... :popcorn:
 
Dont know about the rockets (which look like giant vibrators btw) but they need to rethink the name system. It is grotesque.
 
Their old "New Shepard" couldn't, but this newly announced "New Glenn" is supposed to do exactly what the SpaceX Falcon 9 does, returning to land from orbit, and is much larger and more powerful. The 3-stage New Glenn could be Mars-capable stuff, a huge leap from what they did before, granted they haven't really demonstrated this yet.

Edit: And just to not give the impression that SpaceX is falling behind, at the end of this month there is a very high chance that they will announce something on an order of magnitude bigger than even this, currently going by the simple call-name of the Big F'in Rocket ... :popcorn:

What would be the purpose of such a large rocket? What kind of missions could it service?
 
Putting stuff into orbit. Given that Bezos is involved my guess would be stuff that goes to Mars. I've seen estimates that put the lifting capabilities of the new booster in the range of the Falcon Heavy. Which is about the range you'd want for hauling bigger pieces into space rather than putting them together piecemeal after lifting them by smaller ones
 
It's bigger, but as I also mentioned it actually has less thrust than the Falcon Heavy, but still a lot more than a Falcon 9, though anyone who has played KSP can tell you raw thrust at ground level isn't everything, so I think we have to wait for more details really.

I think the only thing this can lift that a Falcon Heavy can't would be the Bigelow Space habitats that cannot fit into the FH fairing. So maybe they are aiming more for launching big stuff for a possible orbital station market, while SpaceX are aiming more for mars, just guessing.
 
Yeah this is a super exciting development!

So let me explain some of the questions brought up here -

Why's it so big?

Two main reasons-
1) Methalox propellant. Liquid Methane is about as dense as liquid oxygen, which is to say not very dense. So to get the same amount of performance as an equivalent Kerosene rocket, you need much bigger tanks.
2) It's sized for RTLS (or possibly drone ship but more likely RTLS) landings for every mission in its payload class.

This second point is the main driver because if the answer was only 1), the rocket would be much smaller (see Delta IV which is smaller and uses even less-dense Hydrogen propellant). Blue Origin is a big proponent of re-use and especially RTLS landings which take ~30% extra propellant to pull off for a given payload size.

Now because of 1) and 2), you wind up with a very large rocket that launches payloads in the F9FT (not F9H) class. Based on the thrust numbers (which allows for a decent, but not perfect, first order approximation of payload size) and the above facts, this rocket will likely be capable of placing payloads into LEO/GTO that are in the upper range of the F9FT's capabilities, not the FH. The FH will be capable of a larger payload than the New Glenn 2 stage variant.

The New Glenn 3 stage variant will likely beat the FH in payload size to GTO or TLI/TMI/beyond-Earth trajectories. That is because the proposed 3rd stage of the New Glenn will be a Hyrdolox system based on their sub-orbital work on New Shephard (it will use a vacuum variant of NS's rocket engine). On the scale of specific impulse (rocket efficiency), Kerolox<Metholox<Hydrolox.

Now for first stages, the specific impulse is not as important as thrust. This is how the Falcon family manages to place such huge payloads into orbit despite the relative inefficiency of their engines. However, for upper stages, specific impulse dominates and the higher your specific impulse, the bigger your payloads can be. So the New Glenn 3 stage variant will likely beat FH for payload mass but likely not by as large of a margin as you would expect given the rockets size (remember 1) and 2) from above still applies to stage 1 and 2 of New Glenn).

Some other key info -
Blue Origin is building a factory to build New Glenn near the launch site in Florida. This allows them to make their rockets as big as they want. SpaceX makes their rockets in California and they decided that their shipping method to the launch site would be by truck. This limits how wide the stage can be, which is why Falcon ended up so tall and skinny. The rocket is about as long as it can get too or it will turn into a spaghetti noodle in flight.

On Mars-

There is currently no public plans for a 3rd stage for Falcon vehicles. The amount of mass that F9FT/FH can throw at Mars is based solely on what the rocket can currently do. The 3 stage New Glenn rocket will likely exceed this mass to Mars based on the efficiency of it's 3rd stage. There's a good chance that the 2 stage variant would exceed F9FT's throw-weight to Mars as well. But the 2 stage variant will likely not exceed FH's throw-weight to Mars.

Also, Blue Origin is not fixated on Mars the way SpaceX is, so their architecture is not developed toward that bent. Bezos wants to make humans a space-fairing species but is not wedded to the idea of starting a Mars colony. So don't look at his rockets and think 'oh man that can get so much mass to Mars', instead think, 'oh man that rocket can put so much infrastructure into LEO'.

On fairing size -

Falcon already flies one of the largest fairings on the market. There are not too many payloads that are too large for it and if you factor in the payloads that exist in fact and not just on a drawing board, then pretty much none exist that are too large for the fairing. Bigelow's modules are an example of one payload that would be too big but I would not count on them producing hardware. From everything I've read, Bigelow Aerospace is one of the worst-run of the 'new' space companies.

They once hired people who moved out to Las Vegas on their own dime and laid them off on their first day. It's a cluster over there. So while it's fun to speculate about their modules, they are vaporware until they exist. Having said that, Bigelow himself has deep pockets to continue bankrolling the company. Also, keep in mind that the 'agreement' between ULA and Bigelow is unfunded (Bigelow is not buying rockets yet, they're essentially just studying the problem together) and would require ULA to develop a 2-engine Centaur (2nd stage) variant of the Atlas V. So even though it would fit in their fairing (just barely), it would actually take a lot more engineering work to pull off in the form of a new 2nd stage rather than a re-design of a fairing.

Random stuff -

New Glenn has more thrust than F9FT but less than FH. Payloads will likely be something like-
F9FT =~ NG2S < FH < NG3S but that also depends on the specific orbits and whether or not F9FT/FH are doing ASDS or RTLS landings. Both variants of NG will likely RTLS.

Blue Origin has not mentioned 2nd/3rd stage re-usability. That's also a much harder task than 1st stage re-use and would warrant it's own post to talk about.

On naming scheme -

I agree that New Glenn doesn't have a nice ring to it. That said, I don't hate it and I do like the overall scheme. As to nationalism - uhhhh not so much. People read too much into that. Blue Origin and SpaceX both want to see humanity become space-fairing in different capacities. They do not want to make just America a space-fairing nation. If they want to name their rockets after American heroes or chant 'USA!' after a landing, who really freaking cares? They will both launch or already do launch international customers and will eventually fly international astronauts/colonists. The nationalism angle is such a dumb thing to get hung up on. And to restate an interaction that made me chuckle on reddit -

RedditGuy1 - When they start chanting 'USA' after a landing, it makes me feel excluded as a non-American.
RedditGuy2 - Oh I'm sorry, did you contribute?


Acronyms -

F9FT - Falcon 9 Full Thrust
FH - Falcon Heavy
TLI - Trans Lunar Injection
TMI - Trans Martian Injection
NG - New Glenn
NG2S - New Glenn 2 stage
NG3S - New Glenn 3 stage
BO - Blue Origin
SX - SpaceX
BA - Bigelow Aerospace
Isp - Specific impulse
ULA - United Launch Alliance
GTO - Geostationary Transfer Orbit
NS - New Shephard
 
Awesome and very informative writeup!

My "Damn space nationalists" remark was just meant as a lighthearted quip BTW. I think a lot of the international audience has been told so much that they should be interested in these space things because of its value as achievements important to all humanity. But I can guarantee you if one of these companies had been Norwegian, I would have been shamelessly even more excited and wanting them to flaunt their Norwegianness (Just think of all the cool viking and norse names we could use!). It's the sort of sentiment that leads to names like the ISS "CanadArm".

I do think it would be cool if one of these companies styled itself as being an international effort though, trancending earlier government-dominated space-travel sort of thing. Would be cool if Europe, Russia and Japan could all get in on supporting what seems to be the future of space-travel, but I suppose this comes more down to the respective governments policies than anything else.
 
Thanks for the compliment! I've actually been thinking about writing articles on various rockets but I'm not sure where I would publish them. I've been thinking of joining facebook and posting them there because I'd be assure a decent audience with little effort. I'm just not sure it's a good medium for that. Also, I know I'd struggle to produce decent infographics to accompany the write ups. But I need a hobby and an outlet for my rocket-love and I think writing articles would be a fun hobby for me.

Write ups like the one above are a joy for me to write (seriously, I have fun writing that stuff) and I think if I spent a few weeks on an article, I could produce something fun that a lot of people would read. I wrote that in an hour before I went to work and it's really disjointed and not easy to follow. I could do much better but even then I'm not sure there is much of audience for serious articles on facebook.

What do you guys think?

And if I were to do this, what would you guys want to read about first? Some subjects I'd like to tackle -
N-1/Soviet Moonshot
Buran
Falcon and New Glenn comparison (better written than above with infographics)
Bromarc (made out of radioactive metals because nuclear warheads aren't enough)
SLS/ARM mission
Anything else?

(not saying I expect any of you to read anything I would publish, just asking for what interests you most)


On the nationalism thing - sorry if that came off as an attack at anyone here. It really wasn't, it was more about my frustration with the way people talk about 'nationalism' angle wrt SpaceX on the internet in general. It's just such an odd thing for them (meaning non-American reddit users) to get hung up on for the reasons listed above.
 
Thanks for the compliment! I've actually been thinking about writing articles on various rockets but I'm not sure where I would publish them. I've been thinking of joining facebook and posting them there because I'd be assure a decent audience with little effort. I'm just not sure it's a good medium for that. Also, I know I'd struggle to produce decent infographics to accompany the write ups. But I need a hobby and an outlet for my rocket-love and I think writing articles would be a fun hobby for me.

Write ups like the one above are a joy for me to write (seriously, I have fun writing that stuff) and I think if I spent a few weeks on an article, I could produce something fun that a lot of people would read. I wrote that in an hour before I went to work and it's really disjointed and not easy to follow. I could do much better but even then I'm not sure there is much of audience for serious articles on facebook.

What do you guys think?

And if I were to do this, what would you guys want to read about first? Some subjects I'd like to tackle -
N-1/Soviet Moonshot
Buran
Falcon and New Glenn comparison (better written than above with infographics)
Bromarc (made out of radioactive metals because nuclear warheads aren't enough)
SLS/ARM mission
Anything else?

(not saying I expect any of you to read anything I would publish, just asking for what interests you most)


On the nationalism thing - sorry if that came off as an attack at anyone here. It really wasn't, it was more about my frustration with the way people talk about 'nationalism' angle wrt SpaceX on the internet in general. It's just such an odd thing for them (meaning non-American reddit users) to get hung up on for the reasons listed above.
Facebook can give you a wide audience, but sadly I'd never read it. I really don't like FB.

Some people end up with very decent followings on blogs, though. It's a shame the blog feature isn't enabled here on CFC, as there are likely a fair number of folks on the forum who have things to say that are too long for thread posts and aren't quite as suitable for back and forth discussion (though they are very interesting topics).
 
Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it. I have thought about blogs and that would definitely be a more appropriate place for articles to go. The problem is that I would have to actively seek out an audience which is something I don't want to do. Facebook would at least guarantee me a few reads from coworkers at the very least. It can either die or grow from there based on the quality of the articles. To even get a blog off the ground I'd likely have to join facebook anyways in order to link to it and get my coworkers to look at it.

I'm thinking that if I start a facebook and get an actual following, I might move over to a blog. That's a big if on the part of getting a following though.
 
Well, if/when you do decide on a blog, let me know. I'll not only read it - I will add the link to my sig at TrekBBS, where there are plenty of people interested in real-world space program information.
 
Sweetness. Thanks! I'm definitely going to do it, just working on the logistics end of it now.

Any subjects you would be interested in reading about in particular?
 
Yeah this is a super exciting development!

So let me explain some of the questions brought up here -

Why's it so big?

Two main reasons-
1) Methalox propellant. Liquid Methane is about as dense as liquid oxygen, which is to say not very dense. So to get the same amount of performance as an equivalent Kerosene rocket, you need much bigger tanks.
2) It's sized for RTLS (or possibly drone ship but more likely RTLS) landings for every mission in its payload class.

This second point is the main driver because if the answer was only 1), the rocket would be much smaller (see Delta IV which is smaller and uses even less-dense Hydrogen propellant). Blue Origin is a big proponent of re-use and especially RTLS landings which take ~30% extra propellant to pull off for a given payload size.

Now because of 1) and 2), you wind up with a very large rocket that launches payloads in the F9FT (not F9H) class. Based on the thrust numbers (which allows for a decent, but not perfect, first order approximation of payload size) and the above facts, this rocket will likely be capable of placing payloads into LEO/GTO that are in the upper range of the F9FT's capabilities, not the FH. The FH will be capable of a larger payload than the New Glenn 2 stage variant.

The New Glenn 3 stage variant will likely beat the FH in payload size to GTO or TLI/TMI/beyond-Earth trajectories. That is because the proposed 3rd stage of the New Glenn will be a Hyrdolox system based on their sub-orbital work on New Shephard (it will use a vacuum variant of NS's rocket engine). On the scale of specific impulse (rocket efficiency), Kerolox<Metholox<Hydrolox.

Now for first stages, the specific impulse is not as important as thrust. This is how the Falcon family manages to place such huge payloads into orbit despite the relative inefficiency of their engines. However, for upper stages, specific impulse dominates and the higher your specific impulse, the bigger your payloads can be. So the New Glenn 3 stage variant will likely beat FH for payload mass but likely not by as large of a margin as you would expect given the rockets size (remember 1) and 2) from above still applies to stage 1 and 2 of New Glenn).

Some other key info -
Blue Origin is building a factory to build New Glenn near the launch site in Florida. This allows them to make their rockets as big as they want. SpaceX makes their rockets in California and they decided that their shipping method to the launch site would be by truck. This limits how wide the stage can be, which is why Falcon ended up so tall and skinny. The rocket is about as long as it can get too or it will turn into a spaghetti noodle in flight.

On Mars-

There is currently no public plans for a 3rd stage for Falcon vehicles. The amount of mass that F9FT/FH can throw at Mars is based solely on what the rocket can currently do. The 3 stage New Glenn rocket will likely exceed this mass to Mars based on the efficiency of it's 3rd stage. There's a good chance that the 2 stage variant would exceed F9FT's throw-weight to Mars as well. But the 2 stage variant will likely not exceed FH's throw-weight to Mars.

Also, Blue Origin is not fixated on Mars the way SpaceX is, so their architecture is not developed toward that bent. Bezos wants to make humans a space-fairing species but is not wedded to the idea of starting a Mars colony. So don't look at his rockets and think 'oh man that can get so much mass to Mars', instead think, 'oh man that rocket can put so much infrastructure into LEO'.

On fairing size -

Falcon already flies one of the largest fairings on the market. There are not too many payloads that are too large for it and if you factor in the payloads that exist in fact and not just on a drawing board, then pretty much none exist that are too large for the fairing. Bigelow's modules are an example of one payload that would be too big but I would not count on them producing hardware. From everything I've read, Bigelow Aerospace is one of the worst-run of the 'new' space companies.

They once hired people who moved out to Las Vegas on their own dime and laid them off on their first day. It's a cluster over there. So while it's fun to speculate about their modules, they are vaporware until they exist. Having said that, Bigelow himself has deep pockets to continue bankrolling the company. Also, keep in mind that the 'agreement' between ULA and Bigelow is unfunded (Bigelow is not buying rockets yet, they're essentially just studying the problem together) and would require ULA to develop a 2-engine Centaur (2nd stage) variant of the Atlas V. So even though it would fit in their fairing (just barely), it would actually take a lot more engineering work to pull off in the form of a new 2nd stage rather than a re-design of a fairing.

Random stuff -

New Glenn has more thrust than F9FT but less than FH. Payloads will likely be something like-
F9FT =~ NG2S < FH < NG3S but that also depends on the specific orbits and whether or not F9FT/FH are doing ASDS or RTLS landings. Both variants of NG will likely RTLS.

Blue Origin has not mentioned 2nd/3rd stage re-usability. That's also a much harder task than 1st stage re-use and would warrant it's own post to talk about.

On naming scheme -

I agree that New Glenn doesn't have a nice ring to it. That said, I don't hate it and I do like the overall scheme. As to nationalism - uhhhh not so much. People read too much into that. Blue Origin and SpaceX both want to see humanity become space-fairing in different capacities. They do not want to make just America a space-fairing nation. If they want to name their rockets after American heroes or chant 'USA!' after a landing, who really freaking cares? They will both launch or already do launch international customers and will eventually fly international astronauts/colonists. The nationalism angle is such a dumb thing to get hung up on. And to restate an interaction that made me chuckle on reddit -

RedditGuy1 - When they start chanting 'USA' after a landing, it makes me feel excluded as a non-American.
RedditGuy2 - Oh I'm sorry, did you contribute?


Acronyms -

F9FT - Falcon 9 Full Thrust
FH - Falcon Heavy
TLI - Trans Lunar Injection
TMI - Trans Martian Injection
NG - New Glenn
NG2S - New Glenn 2 stage
NG3S - New Glenn 3 stage
BO - Blue Origin
SX - SpaceX
BA - Bigelow Aerospace
Isp - Specific impulse
ULA - United Launch Alliance
GTO - Geostationary Transfer Orbit
NS - New Shephard
Very interesting and well explained. :goodjob: That i find most amazing thought is that i already knew most of the technical aspects thanks to playing KSP...
 
Write ups like the one above are a joy for me to write (seriously, I have fun writing that stuff) and I think if I spent a few weeks on an article, I could produce something fun that a lot of people would read. I wrote that in an hour before I went to work and it's really disjointed and not easy to follow. I could do much better but even then I'm not sure there is much of audience for serious articles on facebook.

What do you guys think?

And if I were to do this, what would you guys want to read about first? Some subjects I'd like to tackle -
N-1/Soviet Moonshot
Buran
Falcon and New Glenn comparison (better written than above with infographics)
Bromarc (made out of radioactive metals because nuclear warheads aren't enough)
SLS/ARM mission
Anything else?

Personally I'd be very interested in your thoughts on the SLS/ARM mission, expanded Falcon and New Glenn comparison, basically anything providing insights on the future. What's Bromarc? Didn't find anything googling it, sounds awesome if it involves radioactive stuff anyway.
 
Very interesting and well explained. :goodjob: That i find most amazing thought is that i already knew most of the technical aspects thanks to playing KSP...
Thanks! I actually read some new information/informed speculation on New Glenn in the Lurio Report (my empolyer subscribes, I'm 100% sure it's behind a paywall but Lurio does encourage citations) and I'll try and summarize here later.

Personally I'd be very interested in your thoughts on the SLS/ARM mission, expanded Falcon and New Glenn comparison, basically anything providing insights on the future. What's Bromarc? Didn't find anything googling it, sounds awesome if it involves radioactive stuff anyway.

Bromarc was an interceptor missile that was made out of Thorium alloys and was thus radioactive itself in addition to carrying a nuclear warhead. It's one of those weird projects in aerospace that are interesting in their own right but not a lot of people know about.

I think that's the kind of thing I want to blog about in addition to informed articles on current/near-future projects.

I think SLS/ARM will be a challenge to do right because I don't want to turn my articles into political hit pieces. SLS/ARM is a heavily-charged subject in the aerospace world and it's nearly impossible to separate the machine from the politics behind it. Even the ARM mission itself is a political conciliation to the vague edicts of Congress. So I'm going to have to walk a fine line when I write on it - but I will write on it.



On the blog itself - I've made the decision that I'm going to create a blog because the ability to write an article on facebook itself is very limited. I'll use facebook as an advertising front but the articles will be hosted on a blog platform (that I have yet to pick). I'm currently in the process of crafting a defining document outlining (for my own benefit) what the blog will and will not be about. I want to keep it tight and focused and as such I owe it to myself to sit down and create a style guide of sorts before I launch it.
 
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