The thread on racism

[Senethro]

I think that Buddha had it right, when he said that once you realise how perfect everything is, you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky. I take that to mean that everything is pointless and that phony concerns like racism don't trouble people who realise it.

In what time and place did you come to this realization? Is it an eternal truth that would have been true in southern US states in the early 20th century?

 

[Yeekim]

But like the Omaha police association depiction of the black infant as a future "thug" due to growing up in a "thug culture", I think isn't too difficult to realize it for what it is.

Again, I'm not sure what you're not agreeing with.
- Descriptor "thug culture"?
- Assumption that if one is subjected to thug culture from birth, he is likely to grow up as thug himself?
- That they made the case public?

 

[Domen]

Check this video - fragment which starts at 09:20 - he explains how people inherit traits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o25ANiRAMvM#t=9m20s

Here is one of many interesting things he says:

"(...) If one is to trace one's ancestry back in time, there is in fact a different ancestry at every place in the genome. Every place in your genome traces back a different path through your ancestors. (...)"

And also:

"(...) In you, the current generation, is the physically melted manifestation not of your parents, but of your grandparents. (...)"

 

[Terxpahseyton]

@attackfighter
Why are people cartoon characters? I'd argue because it feels good to belong and to believe and being a cartoon character is the easiest and safest road to achieve that.
Those are desires you are not beyond I am afraid. Neither am I for that matter.
Now:
In the one second, you say everything is pointless and in the next second you seem to say that this somehow justifies you to not care and that this is somehow right or "perfect". You are your own cartoon character I am afraid.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

@Farmboy
Hm it depends I suppose. This topic is frustratingly nuanced I have to say. If the black or white person refereed to his or her community, I would say mere bigotry. If this person referred to all blacks or whites in America - racism.

To me, the key requirement for racism instead of mere bigotry is that there must be an element of feeling superior to the other group while actually hating them.

In German we call this "Fremdenhass" which means "hatred of strangers". Why do we need to call this racism? Why can we not just say "group-spirit of hate" or whatever?

Just because its not biology based does not mean it isn't coded racism. Derogatory discussion of culture or people on low income is often racism in a nice suit.

I'll have to paraphrase my response to Forma:
Why should we call this racism, even if it is full of hate and derogatory opinions of an ethnicity? I really don't think that it is useful to call something racist simply because it is really mean-spirited or vile. And we don't need it to socially stigmatize such vileness, now do we? Are we as societies so primitive that we can only stigmatize hatred of ethnic groups when we assume that such hatred is based on pure BS-assertions. Doesn't the hatred as such suffice? The group-thinking? I would very much like it to.

Given that American history is pretty much already White History its not very generous of you to say that a month for other people is a bad policy. Its like the thing about Who Discovered America?: Columbus. What was the name of the nation/people he met there? uhhh... let me check Wikipedia.

American history as taught and generally known is not race-neutral.

What black American figures merit attention for nothing but their accomplishments / meaning for the nation in history lessons?
I don't find it unlikely that black people simply didn't have that much of a food-print. Which isn't surprising given their historic marginalization.
My personal issue with a Black History Month is that this fights fire with fire. The core issue of racial bigotry in America is group-thinking along the lines of races. The practical issue of this is animosity or even hostility along those lines. The Black History Month is a measure which does not fight this group thinking but fights the group fight itself, thereby legitimizing the racial group-thinking.

 

[Senethro]

I'll have to paraphrase my response to Forma:
Why should we call this racism, even if it is full of hate and derogatory opinions of an ethnicity? I really don't think that it is useful to call something racist simply because it is really mean-spirited or vile. And we don't need it to socially stigmatize such vileness, now do we? Are we as societies so primitive that we can only stigmatize hatred of ethnic groups when we assume that such hatred is based on pure BS-assertions. Doesn't the hatred as such suffice? The group-thinking? I would very much like it to.

Because it quacks like a duck and I don't see any utility to a new word.

What black American figures merit attention for nothing but their accomplishments / meaning for the nation in history lessons?
I don't find it unlikely that black people simply didn't have that much of a food-print. Which isn't surprising given their historic marginalization.
My personal issue with a Black History Month is that this fights fire with fire. The core issue of racial bigotry in America is group-thinking along the lines of races. The practical issue of this is animosity or even hostility along those lines. The Black History Month is a measure which does not fight this group thinking but fights the group fight itself, thereby legitimizing the racial group-thinking.

In one sentence you talk about marginalization as a bad thing. In the next you advocate ignoring racial issues, a form of marginalization.

Its exceptionally difficult to be race-neutral in America because lots of people mistake familiar whiteness for neutrality.

 

[Farm Boy]

@Farmboy
Hm it depends I suppose. This topic is frustratingly nuanced I have to say. If the black or white person refereed to his or her community, I would say mere bigotry. If this person referred to all blacks or whites in America - racism.

In German we call this "Fremdenhass" which means "hatred of strangers". Why do we need to call this racism? Why can we not just say "group-spirit of hate" or whatever?

Hatred of strangers can be race or ethnic based hate though. If a group of subcontractors shows up in your nice white American or German or whatever town, and they're the same ethnicity, talk the same way, share the same sort of dress, are those "strangers" going to receive the same level of distrust as a group of subcontractors that look and speak and dress "black" or "Pakistani" or whatever? If the "stranger" in "strangers" there is translating correctly, it doesn't seem to grasp the issue broadly enough. "Racism" grabs it more firmly by the tail even if the "hatred" aspect of it is more targeted at the culture rather than double-helix differences.

 

[Domen]

" I think American Africans are dumber than white people" - is - and that may surprise you - IMO borderline. After all, it is a statistical fact that on average they are. But it is not clear weather this mere tendency was supposed to be conveyed or if it was supposed to be a general statement about the different races and which exists independent of time and place - which would be textbook racism.

I don't know why you have such problems with Black people in the USA.

Majority of Black people from Poland I know - or Afro-Poles I should say - are really cool people.

For example deputy John Godson (who is a Centre-Right politician and thus I like him more than even the Whitest one of all Polish Leftists):

And our Black Polish ladies are for the most part smart, and often also very beautiful - like Ola Szwed:

Or Rogers Cole-Wilson, who works for Polish regional TV:

"I think American Africans are dumber than white people" - is - and that may surprise you - IMO borderline. After all, it is a statistical fact that on average they are. But it is not clear weather this mere tendency was supposed to be conveyed or if it was supposed to be a general statement about the different races and which exists independent of time and place - which would be textbook racism.

So I suppose the problem with your Black people is, that they came to the USA as slaves.

When a group of people escape from slave hunters, the smarter ones will do it, while the dumber ones will get caught.

You caught the statistically dumber ones and transported them to the US.

Afro-Poles came to Poland of their own free will - so we got mostly the smartest and the most ambitious ones.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Because it quacks like a duck and I don't see any utility to a new word.

No it doesn't IMO. And we also don't need a new word. we have all the worst we need, just need to use them.
Racism only described the hatred of ethnicities adequately because this used to be an in and fashionable justification to hate ethnicities. It is no more, most people had to realize that we lack sufficient grounds to view various race-theories as likely. So racism returned to good old group-hatred.
It is only a duck if people forget what a duck is.
However, as already said to Farmboy, I concede that some bigotry is in effect so indistinguishable from racism, that I am fine with calling it also just that. The effect I mean is not hate - that is hardly novelty of racism however you understand racism - it is the assessment of qualities. Which can be a "mere" better or worse prejudiced. Or at least in effect racism when it -as already said - by common sense requires a racist notion to make any sense.

Here are 4 kinds of utility I see in this:
(1) Fairer and more productive judgment. Bigots will rightfully feel misjudged by being called racists and will have a harder time to argue against being called stupid hate-ful bigots.
(2) Better understanding of the history of bigotry. As in: Awareness of historic developments in group-hatred and the specificness of the historic phenomena of racism.
(3) Better understanding / greater awareness of bigotry itself instead of one-dimensional label-orgasms.
(4) I will be very grateful.

 

[Farm Boy]

Good lord Domen, those nails look atrocious. Granted, the rest of her looks pretty nice.

And I'm not certain most of "America's problem with black people" is actually a problem with black people so much as it's a cultural and socioeconomic issue. At least it seems to be morphing that way, with some of the Jim Crow South relics holding out for the harder line. I mean I could post pictures of Haley Barry(spelling?) and the Mr. President as pretty accurate counterpoints to the examples provided.

 

[Domen]

Good lord Domen, those nails look atrocious.

They are good for repulsing attacks of potential racists, I guess.

In German we call this "Fremdenhass" which means "hatred of strangers". Why do we need to call this racism?

I think the extent to which there is hatred of "strangers", is proportional to the number of "strangers".

In Poland we don't have many black people, so there is no widespread anti-black sentiment.

And these few Black people who are in Poland, are actually creating a positive impression of themselves - IMO.

There of course do exist groups of racists and White supremacists. For example Ola Szwed described how she was once harrassed by such a group at the bus stop. But they stopped harrassing her and even apologized for their action (sic!) as soon as they realized, that she was "that actress from TV".

But these are marginal groups just like in other countries, where there are not many "black strangers".

 

[warpus]

It's not a fair comparison. A lot of blacks in the U.S. live in parts of the country where the schools don't get nearly as much funding as schools where white students attend.

So it's not that black Americans are dumber than their white counterparts - it's that on average they are probably not educated as well.

Blacks in Poland don't have this problem... the real problem being that poor neighbourhoods in the U.S. get crappy schools - the exact opposite of what they need.

 

[Farm Boy]

And the funding to those school districts isn't always effective even when it's there. It's not like Chicago Public School teachers are exactly starving on their median salaries. But the districts still have a lot of suck in them.

 

[Domen]

As much as my personal experiences with black people are only positive, then it is not the case with the Romani people (also known as Gypsies).

Here are some examples of my personal experiences with the Romani people:

1) they are talking very loudly (in their own language) in the shopping centre, which is rude

2) they are begging on street corners and near churches, or sending their children to do this

3) their clothes either ridiculously shine like Christmas trees, or are shabby and untidy (nothing in between)

4) some are driving very expensive cars (but this is only a tiny % of them all - others are poor)

5) some are living in very large houses or "palaces" (but this is only a tiny % of them all - others are poor)

And secon-hand experiences with the Romani people

1) they are establishing shanty towns in various places (but I only saw them in TV, not in RL)

2) stereotypes about the Romani people being thiefs can be heard - especially from older people

3) "Listen to your mom and dad, or a Gypsy is going to kidnap you" - old people used to tell such things to their grandchildren in the past

====================================

These are all social and cultural problems, I think. The result of the encounter of two different ways of life.

I know that France and Germany also consider the Romani people as a "problematic group".

So it's not that black Americans are dumber than their white counterparts - it's that on average they are probably not educated as well.

Blacks in Poland don't have this problem...

I agree here. But Gypsies have the same problem in Poland (and in most of Europe in general), as Blacks in the USA.

On the other hand, it seems that American Gypsies do not have this problem. They are relatively well-off in the USA.

 

[Farm Boy]

So basically almost identical to the stereotype of American blacks? Only perhaps replace "shopping center" with "theatre" if you want to flog the horse all the way. And I guess you would have to build in the assumption that many of the ones with nice huge cars are drug dealers.

 

[Senethro]

Seriously, quacks like a duck.

 

[Domen]

So basically almost identical to the stereotype of American blacks?

Exactly. And the biggest problem of Gypsies in Poland (as well as in Germany, Britain and France) is also education, as far as I know.

They simply avoid attending school. Their parents send them to beg on the street corner, instead of sending them to school...

 

[Lillefix]

I've just ordered "A Practical guide to Racism" from Amazon, so I'll give you some tips when I've finished it.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I've just ordered "A Practical guide to Racism" from Amazon, so I'll give you some tips when I've finished it.

Don't know why but the title made me love in this context.
But sounds great, pleaz do so!

 

[Domen]

And I guess you would have to build in the assumption that many of the ones with nice huge cars are drug dealers.

Indeed. "The Gypsy Mafia" is the stereotype about these rich ones.

==================================

And the funniest thing about racism against the Romani people / Gypsies, is that they are one of sub-groups of Aryans:

http://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/romani

And as we know, the Nazis - and in general many racists - claimed that Aryans are "the master race".

I suppose Hitler did not realize, that he was sending the REAL Aryans into gas chambers.