The ultimate challenge, deity part1

[mirthadir]

Two failures:

Spoiler :

Okay first shot was a REX towards Zara (looking to nab the cows/ivory and stone/seafood blocking line at a minimum). I had the warrior on a hill fog busting and two settler/warchariots out. My first settler/warchariot dies to two barb archers in transit. The second founds a city at the ivory/barbs location which becomes Mecca for all the barbs in the east (Zara took GW). I have no less than 9 barbs close in on said city and bring down the combat II/medic WC (the warrior died to barbs before the city was founded).

My second shot was a big gamble running the theo -> paper -> education bulb/oracle/double bulb shot (I've managed to get this to work a few times on immortal, never on deity). I tech mining -> myst (hut) -> BW -> meditation -> priesthood -> fill out to monotheism if possible. I'm running two priests off the obelisk with their gold keeping me at 100% research. Someone else completes the Oracle in 2400ish BC. I might be able to pull off a RE game by bulbing out Theo, paper, and DR but I figured my odds were just too low; also I have close borders and a fun -1 random event making a persian war quite likely (all three early religions are far away). Zara, of course, is now headed for becoming a monster size.

 

[silverbullet]

silverbullet:

Spoiler :

Good tips. Yes, I am familiar with WFYABTA, but being a Monarch-Emp player, I find it rarely comes into play. In fact, I cannot remember the last time I was in WFYABTA when I actually wanted a tech, even on Emperor.

Do gifts and "can you spare this for a friend" requests count toward WFYA? I know that selling techs for straight cash do not count, how about buying them? I fear I may have really messed up my ability to trade later in this game, because I popped a Scientist, bulbed Compass (all my cities are coastal except 1, so I figured I would want the TR from a Harbor) and I traded it around a bit. I got Currency, Monarchy, and Construction for it from 3 different AIs, so that was worth it, I think, but the previous trades like Med and Priest for Aesthetics was not good.

I am also annoyed about my timing. I had 3 forests pre-chopped, and the Marble hooked up when I hit Lit, and the very next turn the GL was BIADL. ARGHHHH!! This might not have happened if I hadnt been so stupid about trading Aesth around, right? Man, Diety is brutally hard. I am not really sure I like it, to be perfectly frank. I am at .3 power with Zara, and .4 with Darius, thank GOODNESS we share a religion! I am about to culture flip one of Darius' cities, but I cant get any culture on Zara, for the reasons that I love to play Zara myself, that stupid Steele, I personally think its a MONSTER UB.

Back to the grind, LOL, I am not sure I am having fun. I dont see myself being able to equalize, despite a very strong start. Most of the AIs already have LBs, and I am nowhere near Trebs or Maces. I doubt I can win the Lib race now that I lost the GL. I am slipping farther and farther back, shame too, because I had a very nice start.

Any tech you receive from an AI, whether a gift or a price for peace or part of a capitulation deal counts towards WFYABTA.

Spoiler :

Losing the GL is not a big deal on this map. You are spiritual and have a high food capital. Running many scientists under Caste+pacifism should not be a problem. Build the NE in Thebes.

 

[Sleepless]

- 1505AD

Spoiler :

First the good news. Managed to be the first to Lib (which makes a change for me ) and took Nat. Started building the Taj but forgot to cancel my marble deal with Zara till to late and missed out by 2 turns.

My long term plan had been to attack Darius (Montes master) with drafted rifles. First to rifling, drafted army then attacked Darius. Managed to take most of his cities eventually but not before Monte (bit of luck there had AP vote to stop the war with Monte pass) had broken away and Darius capitulated to Zara.

Not very good bearing in mind my army on Zara's borders consisted of 1 WC and 1 Axe . Luckily with the use of the draft/whip I haven't lost any cities yet!!! The real negative side is I'm so far behind in tech now there is now real way for me to catch up even if I could get peace with Zara. My war weariness is sky high. My poor cities have been drafted/whipped senseless and I think I'm making about 13 bulb points per round at a minus figure.

I will finish this game with the aim of not being wiped out. So still looking for my first win on deity.

Quick thought about the people who rushed Darius. Not only did you get his land you cut down the AI tech rate considerably. I managed to keep up until 1000AD then because of WFYBTA and being unable to trade the AI zoomed past me. After I lose this game I might try it again and rush Darius and see if that helps.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

since we're at trading and such

how do you trade on normal speed? What I mean - I usually consider a tech to be normally researched(non tanked econ.) in 15 turns; that means 5 turns on normal.

when I give edu I'm used to do something like 1 turn in music, 1 in guilds, 1 in eng. and let's say 1 in... dunno theo or optics.(let's say immortal, as probably on deity I'd research music and theo by hand). And then do somethin' like edu for guilds and music with a and edu for eng and optics with b. I get max. since it's a tech in which I invested something and etc. Obviously, not necessarily edu. - any backfill.

But on normal, music already takes... 2 turns; if I invest 1, I researched half... so why increase wfybta pointlessly? If I don't invest anything, the deals are quite crappy. What's the optimal approach(being the greedy me, I noticed I ended up self researching too many things and dropping behind despite obviously having better gnp - there are that many turns apparently... )?

Or something like - dunno, constitution; I want rp, chemistry and dunno... astro. With 0 part research I'd have to add cash to each deal even if those are known by all ais and I hold monopoly on mine. But if you invest 1 turn in each, maybe 2 of them just researched half of your tech in the those 3-4 turns. You adding cash to the deal is obviously subpar due to multipliers on beakers, not on gold.

so - most of the cases - part research 1 turn or suck up a crappier deal?(again, in general, obviously there's no fixed rule)

 

[Dirk1302]

I take pretty crappy deals between lib and the first renaissance war. I've noticed too often that most techs are more or less traded even in the end until scientific method, after that some ais run away fast to assembly line, combustion or electricity-radio leaving others in the dust. Since speed reaching a military advantage tech is essential and research rate often falters due to building/upgrading units priority, i take anything i need this period also in crappy deals without researching one or 2 turns into things. I do tend to trade economic techs like liberalism or even better economics away keeping techs like gunpowder, printing press, replaceable parts and rifling to myself. If i don't do the crappy deal they will get these sort of techs anyway in a not so crappy deal from another ai eventually.

If i'm going peaceful i'm usually well ahead in tech at least on immortal and i'm very careful with trading, not giving them more than needed so i research some turns into techs to avoid helping the others by giving them huge deals. Also i beeline for really expensive techs in this case, backfilling the others. I'm more careful about the WFYABTA in this sort of game too.

 

[Rusten]

50 AD -> 700 AD

Spoiler :

Nobody has paper yet so I decide to go for a big liberalism tech and research nationalism by myself for the Taj Mahal. I also decided to go for Judaism and it works like a charm--I keep my pleased status with Pacal and Bismarck, gain pleased with Zara but go to annoyed with Montezuma (fortunately Montezuma is too backwards to pose any threat at this point).

Get a vote to stop the war against Montezuma 200 AD. I decide to vote yes as I don’t want him becoming a vassal of Bismarck (he already has Darius as one). I put a swordsman on duty looking for Aztec SoDs coming my way. I also reinforce my western border cities with some maces/pikes later on.

Quick look at my empire and demographics.

Pacal asked me for paper 375 AD. While I normally love giving into demands this was a solid no on my part. I don’t want him getting any ideas of liberalism into his head (at least not yet). I’m going to hold on to paper this game. I still did some trades, but with other techs (for instance philosophy and CS for engineering with AC).

I decided to go for the Taj Mahal in Persepolis because it has some extra forests (chopped 2 grassland ones) and to get some more culture against Pacal. Being my capital each forest chop gave 45 hammers speeding up the wonder a great deal. Pacal finished the Sistine Chapel (and founded Islam) so I might have to do something about him sooner or later--he’s definitely pursuing culture. Espionage reveals Pacal started researching nationalism so I make a trade with AC before it’s too late.

Patch 3.17 does its thing a little before this. I got a barbarian galley approaching my seafood so I was forced to go into slavery and whip a trireme. It’s really great to be spiritual for this kind of thing, but not being able to run a lot of scientists in Thebes somewhat slows down my liberalism plans. I’m back at it 475 AD though. Having a city like this and a safe environment for pacifism feels so good.

Pacal gets friendly with me 500 AD even without the religious bonus--he really loves HR. I flip a barbarian city next to the silver city 520 AD. It costs much more than I get at the point of flipping but it should go into profit later on as it has cows and several grassland (+fur).

I end up 1 GS short to 2x bulb chemistry and sci. method due to the interference but 1x chemistry and 2x sci. method works like a charm as well. I get Zara to friendly 600 AD.

Speaking of 600 AD--I get a nasty Aztec surprise. I had been a little sloppy scouting for stacks and Montezuma decides to attack me. It was of no use though--horse archers and chariots don’t do too well vs. fortified macemen and pikemen with 60% cultural defence--I lose no units.

I successfully repel the Aztec stacks and claim my prize (biology) 680 AD after using 2 GSs on sci. method.

I set research to communism for the Gspy and SP, I can do fine without slavery with SP and CS powered workshops. I’ll probably research constitution next for representation and attack Pacal, Montezuma and Bismarck.

I’ll probably go ahead with this trade (below) once I play some more turns (Pacal is currently researching guilds). If I’m lucky I’ll be able to trade for MT with Zara by giving him education and optics.

Going to whip some workers the next turn (foolishly lost 1 or 2 to Aztec troops) and then revolt back to CS/pacifism.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Rusten,

Spoiler :

Looks good, must be fun to play this game in your position.I'd take out Bismarck first since you can have Pacal and Monty anytime you want since they're weak and pathetic.You can take them on at military tech parity but Bismarck could become strong in the future.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

I take pretty crappy deals between lib and the first renaissance war.

no, what I meant is: if the game lasts ~900 turns, makes perfect sense to invest 1 turn into a tech and get a better deal because it's marked at part research/avoid 2 techs for 1 trades/racking the ai cash.

but, if the game lasts 300 turns? I mean, in my constitution example - if I research 1 turn in the techs I want to shop maybe I don't have to add... dunno, economics to deal; or I get some more cash which allows for higher research. But in those 3 turns of part research I could've done... 30-40% of demo. Simply because you can't split the beakers - "this turn invest a little in chemistry, but put some in demo too".

up until now I would've sworn on "always invest at least 1 turn, except emergency cases, never give cash, always try to take"; however, with the # of available turns decreasing this "always invest 1 turn" suddenly turns into research 20-30% of it yourself/I'm out of turns regardless of having the better gnp.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Bleys,

Spoiler :

Indeed the trade for med and priesthood wasn't that great but getting currency, cal and construction for compass is perfectly in order in my book. At least you'll be able to trade with Augustus for some time to come. This bulb cost you a GS for lib though. I agree with silverbullet that losing GL isn't a disaster, i mentioned in my own post that i thought getting currency early was more important and i was ready to lose GL getting some cash at least.

To have a chance at lib you need to build NE fast now, should be done in a few turns with marble/chopping. Go pacificm asap and assign like 8-10 scientists, you'll have 3 GS in ~15 turns. Once you've got CS research paper yourself, try to trade for philo but bulb the rest. The lib race'll probably be close (at least in my game it will be).

Deity is hard but that's part of the fun for me, trying to plan and execute strats that work on this level.

 

[Rusten]

@Rusten,

Spoiler :

Looks good, must be fun to play this game in your position.I'd take out Bismarck first since you can have Pacal and Monty anytime you want since they're weak and pathetic.You can take them on at military tech parity but Bismarck could become strong in the future.

Spoiler :

Sure it's fun, but it would've been more enjoyable if it wasn't due to a really strong UU. I stopped and did some calculating before attacking the cities and like killercane I found that it was superior to peaceful expansion. Spiritual and creative is one of my favourite trait combinations for deity play but I still rarely play as Hatty because these War Chariots are (if a little lucky with the map like here) way too good. My battle odds were outstanding as long as I had ~3 chariots per archer making defeat almost impossible, I didn't even take any real risk. With such a boosted start, great land and the spiritual trait for flexible diplomacy the game is so much easier. Games like this is why I usually play without early UUs.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

@rusten

Spoiler :

praised be the wc, the immortal and the vulture

 

[Dirk1302]

^snowlywhite,

Does having part research on a tech give you more discount than just the amount of beakers involved.That's how it works with production of course but not in research as far as i know. So i should think that one tiny part research turn on marathon won't sweeten the deal that muchs. For example:

You want to trade edu for guilds and music, the ai refuses or wants gold in addition, i don't think it matters much now if at all if you research 2 turns into guilds now or one turn into guilds, one into music. If i'm wrong here then it's very important and i should rethink some of my trading strats.

i think i understood what you meant (but maybe i didn't), researching one turn into a tech on normal is 3 times as costly as on marathon, that's why i tend not to do it if i urgently need to research other things too. That's the reason to take crappy deals between lib and renaissance.

But if you only want to research a marathon like turn into a tech you can adjust the slider of course, it'll cost you a bit since the gold multipliers aren't as good as the science multipliers but you're probably not researching at 100% anyway at that time.

Another reason to just take the crappy deals has to do with uncertainty of how much of a tech needs to be researched to get the deal and the constant fear especially on normal/deity that the deal's not available anymore next turn. A turn wasted is just very costly at normal, i played epic in the warlords past and i really needed to adjust to this.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Rusten

Spoiler :

Yes some of these uu's are pretty strong, you can always ignore them of course as i tend to do if i'm not boxed in but then you'd play the game sub optimal which can be unsatisfactory either. I'd even feel this way myself if i recognized this situation in time next time.

 

[tycoonist]

i was going to try this one tonight, but then i realised the CD wasn't in the drive. i guess it will have to wait until tomorrow. (yes, i am too lazy to open the drive and insert the correct disc, i know...)

plus its now about 1am and i had a two hour plane journey today as well. probably not the best time to start on deity...

 

[Dirk1302]

, good luck.

 

[Bleys]

Rusten:

Spoiler :

You amaze me. Its inconceivable to me that you dont have Archery at this point in the game. Is there any other reason than you dont want to waste WFYABTA on a tech you dont need? I think the concept of this game mechanic is not emphasized enough when moving up in levels. I actually went back and played (well, played out) an Emp game I had mostly finished, was winning easily, but I wanted to test the WFYABTA thing, and I discovered I would have been in it with most AIs after just a couple more trades. Had I NOT been dominating the game, I may have been in trouble there. So I think its a pretty important concept that I am trying to get a grasp of. Are the beakers a factor? Or are the techs counted as equal, despite their cost?

And Biology from Lib? I am not sure I follow that one either, I think I would have grabbed Communism in a heartbeat, myself. Are you taking Bio so you can convert some farms to Cottages?

Also, not meaning to pick nits, but you said this:

Being my capital each forest chop gave 45 hammers

Taj is a Marble Wonder, so Marble + Forge + Capitol (Bureaucracy) makes each 30 hammer forest worth 80some hammers, right? I think Maths even jacks that up a bit as well, although I am not sure the actual math on that.

I am just going to add that I truly enjoy your write ups. You seem to grasp the concept of whats important enough to explain and whats not worth explaining because if you dont get it, you wont get it, if you follow. So if my questions fall into that "if you dont get it, you wont get it" realm, no worries. Keep writing though, you are pretty much responsible for my working toward getting to at least Immortal, heh, I stayed at Monarch for a long time because . . . well, its a blast blowing the AI away sometime, LOL.

 

[silverbullet]

It seems better this time
Spoiler to 225BC

Spoiler :

After being rushed by Zara at 1000BC last time, I restarted the game from 4000 BC
So I repeated the same game (same tech path, settling and scouting I did last time) trying not to get any unfair advantage due to map knowledge. Zara was nice this time, but my power rating was also better. After settling Memphis 1W of the horses, I took some time to build many chariots for fogbusting and eventually captured Uzbek.

I have settled 6 cities and managed to get the great library, and my tech situation is not so bad due to very successful trading of Aesthetics.

I had better luck with the Wheat this time - Darius did found confucianism but not in Susa. He also founded Taoism already. I have not adopted a state religion yet, but I think I can adopt hinduism soon because Darius is busy in a war

Picture of my land (have you noticed that when I think I am winning it's my land but when I lose it's Dirk's loss? )

Spoiler :

I am thinking of settling Silvertown soon, probably taking over barbarian shangian with culture.
I am also thinking of settling a cottage satelite city to the capital, it has no food resouce, but I don't see anything better to do with this empty land. Is it worth the effort?


Details of my cities

Spoiler :

I am not quite sure how to improve my tiles next. I don't see much more options than cottages at this point. I could build farms where available for some whipping.
Some specific questions/concerns:

1) I am thinking of building cottages on the plain tiles in Heiliopolis, so it can generate some commerce now and use plain farms later, when chain irrigation is available.
2) I am focusing on short term in memphis, working the gold mine and delaying the growth of the city and its cottages. Is it a good approach?

Tech plans: After COL is done, I plan to trade it for currency with Augustus and then self research sailing and meditation before starting civil service.
I also think I will bulb philosophy since no one has it except Darius and it's good to trade.

I think I also need at least 2~3 more workers. I didn't notice it until I was looking for my workers to chop the GL and noticed I only had 6 workers for 6 cities.

I am sorry if this report seems a bit too detailed. I think it is necessary for optimized play at this level. If someone feels really generous and wants to examine my game is more details, a save is attached.

 

[Rusten]

Rusten:

Spoiler :

You amaze me. Its inconceivable to me that you dont have Archery at this point in the game. Is there any other reason than you dont want to waste WFYABTA on a tech you dont need? I think the concept of this game mechanic is not emphasized enough when moving up in levels. I actually went back and played (well, played out) an Emp game I had mostly finished, was winning easily, but I wanted to test the WFYABTA thing, and I discovered I would have been in it with most AIs after just a couple more trades. Had I NOT been dominating the game, I may have been in trouble there. So I think its a pretty important concept that I am trying to get a grasp of. Are the beakers a factor? Or are the techs counted as equal, despite their cost?

And Biology from Lib? I am not sure I follow that one either, I think I would have grabbed Communism in a heartbeat, myself. Are you taking Bio so you can convert some farms to Cottages?

Also, not meaning to pick nits, but you said this:
Taj is a Marble Wonder, so Marble + Forge + Capitol (Bureaucracy) makes each 30 hammer forest worth 80some hammers, right? I think Maths even jacks that up a bit as well, although I am not sure the actual math on that.

I am just going to add that I truly enjoy your write ups. You seem to grasp the concept of whats important enough to explain and whats not worth explaining because if you dont get it, you wont get it, if you follow. So if my questions fall into that "if you dont get it, you wont get it" realm, no worries. Keep writing though, you are pretty much responsible for my working toward getting to at least Immortal, heh, I stayed at Monarch for a long time because . . . well, its a blast blowing the AI away sometime, LOL.

Spoiler :

Thanks for the kind words. Mentioning the things that I feel matter regarding problem-solving and gameplay is usually my goal in write-ups so it's great to see that's how people read them--'why' is more important than 'when' or 'what'.

About the 45 hammers thing, I just took the raw hammers before resources and OR bonuses as I wanted to highlight that I was in bureaucracy and mentioning all of them would be too complicated. 45 is what I would get no matter what I'd build to put it like that (actually a forge adds to everything too but I forgot about it (or didn't get one yet perhaps)).

Regarding WFYABTA:
- yes, every tech = 1. Whether you trade for archery or railroad doesn't matter--you still get the same thing added to WFYABTA. The beaker count doesn't matter, nor does what you give to the trading partner--all that matters is how many techs you receive. There's no reason for me to get archery as it's of no use to my game plan here. I cringe when I see people trading for fishing and archery in write-ups on this forum (I've seen both all the way up to immortal).

Biology is much more expensive than communism. Seeing as I want both and will easily get to communism first I don't see why you'd question this. The immediate bonus for farms is just as good as SP--you can never get enough food. I doubt I'll make any more cottages this game--the ones I have are enough (although I'll probably capture some).

 

[Dirk1302]

@silverbullet,

Spoiler :

Looks alright to me. Zara has 9 gpt available, i'd sell the wheat to him even if your capital'll be at -1 health, alternatively sell marble once NE is finished. Keep checking this screen especially after you've got currency as you'll need the gold from these deals.

regarding your questions , there might be more answers/views than i give here, this is as i see it,

1. how to develop your plain squares(and also the grass) depends on your plan from here on:

- if planning for war, 2 possibilities imo:

a) fast war with cuirassiers/spies or trebs, i'd farm the grasslands,leave the plains empty at first, workshop them after.farms on plains really do nothing really pre bio, as soon as i work them i feel it's time to whip the city. This option'll probably be my choice this game.

b) slower war with for instance cannons/rifles, maybe build/work cottages as you'll need some research to get there, alternatively go farms ,research constitution and assign specialists for research, this might be better with all the food here as cottages need to grow, constitution is an extra tech though. Workshops on the plains, you'll certainly need them for production in this case i think, you don't really want to whip heavy on cottages.

If going peaceful cottage everything from here, imo this'll lead to a loss ultimately with the lands you've got and the personality of the others unless you can come up with something smart.

2. In Memphis I'd work these squares until lib then grow the city further. I usually don't have problems with small cities that work only a few prime squares, when to transform can be a bit tricky though, i could imagine some'd say grow earlier.

 

[silverbullet]

Dirk

Spoiler :

First of all, thanks for the quick feedback

@silverbullet,

- if planning for war, 2 possibilities imo:

a) fast war with cuirassiers/spies or trebs, i'd farm the grasslands,leave the plains empty at first, workshop them after.farms on plains really do nothing really pre bio, as soon as i work them i feel it's time to whip the city. This option'll probably be my choice this game.

I never intended to farm plains. I was thinking about cottaging the riverside plains of Heliopolis, since it will soon grow and it's citizens would be working unimproved tiles. I could run specialists instead though, but I wouldn't get the benefit of GPP, as no city in this game can compete with Thebes, so it seems to me that plain cottages would work until chain farming and workshops are available. Long term I see Heliopolis as a production city, so these cottages will probably not mature. Maybe it's not worth the worker turns for now, I will have to see.

I am not sure about curassiers and spies (maybe trebs will work better, but slow down the war) - if I focus on specialists, I will not have enough EP per turn to efficiently cause revolt. It's harder in 3.17.

As for Marble, I was planning to trade it to Zara for stone, so I can build Moai quickly. Perhaps now that I have monarchy I can cancel one of my hapiness resource trades and trade for gold instead. I am a bit reluctant to give up the wheat.