The University of Immortals

[BurN]

1240AD-End

Spoiler :

1250AD - Attack and capture Carthage. I think you can see that Hannibal had no chance, this war will be easy. Carthage has an academy which is nice since there's a lot of cottaged land.
Also captured Sabratha and keep it since it's the Islam holy city.




1260AD - Got another GG, construct military academy in Teotihuacan. Hannibal completes the conf holy shrine .. thanks in advance.


1300AD - Willem demands replaceable parts, I refuse since no AI has it yet. Captured Utica, which is a great commerce city.




1370AD - Capture Hurian.




1390AD - Capture Kerkouane.




1410AD - Capture & raze Sicca. WW is getting troublesome, -10 happiness but the war will be over soon.


1440AD - Capture Hadrumetum. The GL and UoS is in it. Also capture Tacape. Researched communism so I switch to SP.


1480AD - Capture Thaenae and that's the last of Hannibal.




1490AD - Switch to pacifism to get a GP out of the capital. I'll construct a shrine in Orleans with it.


1505AD - GP pops and constructs shrine it gains me 36 gpt at 70% science. I'm behind in techs but it won't take long for cities to regrow and get infrastructure.


1515AD - Oxford up in capital.


1555AD - GM pops, I settle him in my future WS city Orleans.


1565AD - Gilgamesh demands Assembly line. Only Justinian has that but I don't want any negative diplo with him so I give in. I also settle a city north of Teno. I wanted to do this for a very long time but never found the time.


1655AD - GP pops, I make another shrine.


1665AD - Switch to Bureaucracy (I was in free speech), I want to get the radio wonders up. I'm beelining computers.


1695AD - Rock n Roll made in Paris.


1700AD - I sign DP with Justinian.


1715AD - Eiffel Tower made in Teoti.


1725AD - Cristo Redentor made in Paris.


1740AD - Reached computers, internet will take 10 turns. Tech overview:




1760AD - UN selection, it's me VS Frederick, I end up losing.


1785AD - Internet build in Paris and I get a bunch of techs.


1800AD - GS pops, I keep him for a GA later.


1806AD - View of the capital while it still has towns, I will replace them with workshops soon for hammers.




1820AD - UN proposition for FR, it gets accepted so no more Buddhists. Frederick is an idiot because I have way more diplo then him now.


1828AD - I get GE from Fusion and a GP pops. This means I have enoughh specialists for 2x GA, I start one this turn. Just a random screeny:




1834AD - FFS I won a diplo victory. I thought I was voting for UN secretary so I voted for myself. Apparently Frederick was so stupid to propose a diplomatic victory resulting in everyone voting for me. Anyways this was not what I wanted so I reload to 1818, my last save.




1818AD -


1828AD - GE from fusion and GM pops, same thing as before. I start a GA. Also Frederick was so stupid to propose FR again trough UN.


1856AD - Launched.




1874AD - One turn till space victory.

Capital:



Orleans: WS city.



Utica: Strongest commerce city of the empire and also good prod.


Carthage: A good follow-up commerce city.



1876AD - Victory (once again )

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I tried this, and got absolutely, utterly killed. I guess monarch ----> Immortal isn't a cakewalk, huh?

Spoiler :

No pictures needed here, had a similar idea as all of you guys in the BC to AD era, axe rush! I was way too slow though, and got my copper taken . The difficulty level intimidated me somewhat. Good for micro of cities, bad for strategic decision making. I didn't attack until I had catapults, and this was a mistake because I was boxed in and far behind in tech. France had elephants and maces to my axes/jags/spears!

Rather than bang my head against the wall, I read some of the other openings. Some got cities out slightly faster than me but nothing too big of a deal...maybe a turn or two. I should have settled my first city 1N to be guaranteed the bronze, and that mistake pretty much did me in . Rookie errors! I had no axes to axe rush with until iron actually, and this screwed me. Badly.

Now, something about this game troubled me moreso than that. The AI's tech wildly on this difficulty. I'm very used to hitting after building up econ a bit, but in this case it seems impractical (maybe bulb something and trade for code of laws as I go, since they're teching so damned fast that's probably viable, which I'm not used to). Back on monarch, I wouldn't exactly out-tech the AI heavily, but usually I had some things and they had some things, generally I had a slight advantage or was at parity. In this case I was so far back I was gifted monarchy because I had nothing!

It looks like I need a stronger/sooner GP farm, and strategic bulbing. Cottages and commerce tiles won't be keeping up at this level unless I have a #cities advantage.

Tactically, I'm pretty good at warring, easily wiping out higher powered civs at tech parity. The AI doesn't need much strategy running combat 1 maces and elephants into classical units though . Actually, I don't think I was too far back from beating france. I had taken paris, when the AI's production of new units overwhelmed me and pushed me back (functionally ending the game, as he wouldn't take peace). If I'd dug a little deeper into him a little sooner, I'd have had the production edge instead. Need those axes sooner, and with the AI teching like this cats take an ETERNITY.

I think for a player like me, who likes bloodletting early and often, I need to adjust to tech speed via trades, potential backstabs, and when possible hitting soft targets. Also with the AI's production bonus, it looks like I need to build up more prior to wars (though the timeframe for doing this is very tight, since they tech fast too!). I've had success on lower levels by slamming through AI cities quickly before they can react, and it looks like that's absolutely necessary when your civ is smaller on immortal...otherwise they just pump too much.

OK, maybe I'll do emperor first . Each immortals U will see me making an attempt though, because getting murdered at a high difficulty only to see other players beat it somewhat easy is both humbling and quite educational. Thanks all!

 

[silverbullet]

@TheMeInTeam

Spoiler :

I tried this, and got absolutely, utterly killed.
Rather than bang my head against the wall, I read some of the other openings. Some got cities out slightly faster than me but nothing too big of a deal...maybe a turn or two. I should have settled my first city 1N to be guaranteed the bronze, and that mistake pretty much did me in . Rookie errors! I had no axes to axe rush with until iron actually, and this screwed me. Badly.

Now, something about this game troubled me moreso than that. The AI's tech wildly on this difficulty. I'm very used to hitting after building up econ a bit, but in this case it seems impractical (maybe bulb something and trade for code of laws as I go, since they're teching so damned fast that's probably viable, which I'm not used to). Back on monarch, I wouldn't exactly out-tech the AI heavily, but usually I had some things and they had some things, generally I had a slight advantage or was at parity. In this case I was so far back I was gifted monarchy because I had nothing!

It's very courageous that you tried such a jump. I had a very difficult time trying Monarch->Emperor. Some feedback:
You mention settling 1 tile away from the bronze for a quick rush, which is what I did in my game and I successfully rushed the French. However, Rusten, BurN and some other players demonstrated an even better move - with a fast settler you can settle 2N 1W of the copper, getting copper corn and sheep. Louis beat me to that position because I was too slow!!


Iron working is an expensive tech, and on this level I see most players recommending not teching it and trade it instead. One big difference between Monarch and higher levels is that you have to start thinking - how do I tech something that no one else has, instead of "how do I tech what I want now".
Just accept the fact that you will be slower than them for most of the game and start thinking like an underdog.

It looks like I need a stronger/sooner GP farm, and strategic bulbing. Cottages and commerce tiles won't be keeping up at this level unless I have a #cities advantage.

Riverside cottages are great for a financial leader, but not practical for this game. This game has so many food resources, and the spiritual trait just means that you can easily switch caste->slavery. Even without a GP "farm", you should run some specialists from the begining. Most players run 2 scientists as soon as library is built, sacrificing production for an early GS.
Even in a cottage economy game with a financial leader, it's important to get enough GS to win the liberalism race (philosophy bulb, paper, education).

I strongly recommend Snaaty's guide and BurN's Code of Hammurabi. Both these games show very different high level plays from which I learnt a lot.
I also tried downloading their saves and following their steps, just to make sure I understand their game.

 

[Olodune]

1740-End

Spoiler :

I briefly considered going for domination and even started building an invasion force:

But was scared off by Justinians power rating, not a very good Monty impression, I know So we switch gears and head for a (somewhat slow) space race.

The tech screen when all SS techs are known:

The Aztecs are the first to launch a few turns later:

Justinian's military build-up is a little too slow, so a DoW with about 6 turns to win doesn't really concern us. Then we get a little surprise:

Ouch Not only does Justy double nuke our capital, but the defending garrison is completely destroyed ... if he had captured the city, this could have been a very contentious end game

No such luck:

Justy's power went vertical towards the end (he'd finish with over 7 million soldiers -- domination would have been tough):

This was a very fun game. I played a little loose, but never was really threatened for the win. The AI mix was a very strong one! Thanks for organizing, silverbullet

 

[Dirk1302]

500AD-1876AD (the End)

Spoiler :

Not much to say really with the sucessful early rush and the good land the game was imo won already 500 AD, concentrated on teching building the future globe city near the crab fish site. I made a mistake here really, even when i was recovering from the war this city should have been build earlier, as it is it was the late globe theater that prevented an earlier attack on Han. Since the land is very good and i build quite alot of cottages relatively early science is good around 1100 AD (getting a GM from Paris also helped).Usually i don't have time to get to rifles so i attack with Muskets and Cannons with a few anti knight pikes attached. Not neccessary this time i make it easily to rifling before globe is done.

According to plan i bulbed 1/2 of education , printing press, chemistry so i take steel of liberalism 1150 ad.1320 AD i'm ready.War against Hannibal was easy but my earlier mistake of getting globe rather late means that at one moment i kill of 5 units with 10 cannons, 5 rifles for some 6 turns in a row in Utica. On the other hand i had so much cannons that i had split my stack immediately so the other cities fell relatively easy. Done 1525 AD, Hannibal has one city remaining on an island, this one will have to go as well but i need time to build some Galleons.

Since the land is so good there'll be health issues so i take the Refrigeration Medicine Superconductors Genetics route to deal with this problem. Representation would have given me more science throughout but the production + rush buy from US seemed to be more important. At last i really have nothing useful to build in alot of cities so i set all these cities to wealth (better than science because raising the slider lets the extra science go through science multipliers while gold goes through the production multipliers instead of vice versa). I get techs like Industrialism and Radio in 2-3 turns now. At the end of the game i transformed cottages to workshops. 1876 Monty reaches Alpha (same date as BurN ).

As so often in Civ games the early game was deciding, all depended on the success/failure of the early rush and the subsequent recovery process. After 500 AD i feel i could have made quite alot of mistakes and still win the game.

 

[Gliese 581]

Part 6 (1070AD - 1390AD):

Spoiler :

Wow this was a tough round. I started of by switching to mercantilism to make something of the dark age of trade that was about to be visited upon the Aztec people. Unfortunately I had been unable to secure astronomy in trades beforehand. The attack on Hannibal started of well, army group north started taking down the defenses of Jute while army group south conquered and razed Sicca.



Then I ran into some problems, army group center was repelled and destroyed as Hannibal focused most of his troops in the defense of Thapsus. This is of course always a danger when you split your army but I guess I miscalculated the strength of my enemy once again, this time I had underestimated him.
There were more bad news..



Also notice how Freddy got 2 GPs on the same turn, take a guess on what his free tech choice were.
The attack on Jute continued and after wearing down the defenses, the city was captured.



Since army group center had been destroyed I had to revise my plans. I decided to split up army group north and send some troops down to Orleans for defense while the rest bunkered up in Jute.
Meanwhile army group south continued according to the original plan and was moving on Leptis when I received more news from foreign lands.



A peaceful aquisition for Willem. This is one of the reasons I almost always play with no vassals nowadays. The smart move from William would have been to attack and capture Justinian's cities, this can only help me in the long run compared to that scenario. (of course, no vassals wouldn't have made Willem suddenly attack his brother in faith, but at least he would be more able to exploit a war-situation).
The tech-situation was beginning to look horrible once more. The war was going badly indeed and sucking up all of my resources. Still winning, I was unable to make the rapid progress I had hoped for.



Army group center was reformed with fresh reinforcements and a new superhealer (the first one died at the battle of Thapsus) and joined army group south in the attack on Leptis. After heavy losses on both sides, the city was captured. While I was busy warring, Gilgamesh managed to sneak in a settler and steal away a spot from me. I had planned to build a city 1W of the corn but was to late.



The economy.



The unhappiness was mounting to new heights but I kept cracking the whip as I raised culture to keep the citizens in line. My production advantage coupled with the superior prowess and tactics of my troops compared to the Carthaginians was slowly but inexorably pushing them back. The new army group center captured Thapsus and soon thereafter Thaenae was razed by the northern troops. I obtained the Sistine Chapel with the capture of Thapsus.



The fall of Thapsus had broken the back of the Carthaginian army and the resistance was getting lighter. Scythian soon fell.



I stopped trading with Frederick at this point since Gilgamesh was annoyed with him and was WHEOOHRN, indicating he was preparing to attack the Germans. Choosing the buddhist block of Gilga, Willem and Justinian over Frederick was a no-brainer, especially since Frederick is the closest neighbour and likely the next target if I go for a domination win. Unfortunately the war between Gilgamesh and Frederick was short and didn't result in anything.

The next city to fall was Utica which I kept of course.



My technology level was laughable at this point but my empire was getting large.



I was easing up on the troop production and starting another round of infrastructure. I also switched from Theology to OR.



A new army had been gathered in Leptis and it marched on Tacape.



Kerkouane was captured and razed.



I had a settler ready this time and immediately founded Calixtlahuaca on the plains hill 1SW of the iron. Then the hated city of Carthage was captured. Unfortunately, Hannibal managed to escape to Hadrumentum. Many officers heads rolled on account of this screwup.



After this I decided to sue for peace to get some extra technology and to gain a short respit from the war weariness that had reached the 1800s.
I gained Astronomy, 80 gold and a world map for my trouble.



With this I entered the renaissance age! To bad most of the others had reached the modern age already.
The tech situation.



Looks almost like the last shot which means it's alot worse than it might appear. I better play really nice with my diplomacy now, my opponents are almost up to rifling! It's amazing what 320 years of uninterrupted warfare can do for your economy.
My GNP is worse than Hannibal's which is saying alot given that I have 16 cities to his remaining 2.

Is this salvageable? I will try at least..

I don't think I'm going to finish this game in a week so if all of the rest of you are done and are waiting to get a new game up go ahead.
Anyone else still playing?

 

[Gliese 581]

@Gliese 581

Spoiler :

Your power looks good. I noticed you have as many as 5 unhappy faces from whipping in several cities (Monty approves ). The tricky part is that Hannibal is 2 techs from cuirassiers (painful but manageable) and 3 techs from rifling ( ... ). Hopefully he doesn't tech very quickly.

Looking forwards to the next update.

Spoiler :

Thanks! I had a bit of luck considered I had underestimated Hannibal's strength, he didn't tech gunpowder until after democracy and physics. Looking forward to being able to read the rest of your game, and the other who finished!

 

[Sleepless]

@Olodune

Spoiler :

on your win as well. Shame about the nuking though .

 

[Dirk1302]

@Gliese 581

Spoiler :

Your game is surely salvable, you've got 16 cities most of them very good. Concentrate on growing the cities, building the neccessary infra. There comes a moment you can beeline something they haven't got yet you'll be close to tech parity after. Han has a lot of annoying culture left so he must be taken out but do it at a moment that you don't get into a war lasting for 2 centuries.

Why is Louis still alive btw?

 

[Gliese 581]

@Gliese 581

Spoiler :

Your game is surely salvable, you've got 16 cities most of them very good. Concentrate on growing the cities, building the neccessary infra. There comes a moment you can beeline something they haven't got yet you'll be close to tech parity after. Han has a lot of annoying culture left so he must be taken out but do it at a moment that you don't get into a war lasting for 2 centuries.

Why is Louis still alive btw?

Spoiler :

Yeah, Hannibal was teching chemistry last I saw before I used up spy points and should have 2-3 turns left at least, then I'm counting on him not getting rifles in another 8 so I'll probably break the treaty as soon as possible to take him out.

Louis still alive? That's strange, I killed him of in the BCs. Are you looking at my last save? I don't know if it could be a mod issue, I use Bhruic's 3.13 patches.

 

[Olodune]

@Dirk1302 and Gliese 581

Spoiler :

Gilgamesh stole a spot on Gliese's continent, could this be your phantom Louis? Too bad you're not running an espionage game against the Sumerian

 

[BurN]

@TheMeInTeam: I think it's a good idea to try difficulties that are quite a bit above your usual level. You'll learn faster what works and what doesn't. Back in the days when I was still playing monarch, I went for immortal right away too. I can tell you I lost quite a lot of games before getting my first win.

@Olodune: Grats on your win.

@Dirk: Grats on your win as well. All cool kids go to space at 1876!

@Gliese: There's still you, rolo and silver playing I think. But take it easy, no need to rush.

 

[silverbullet]

@Gliese: There's still you, rolo and silver playing I think. But take it easy, no need to rush.

I am still playing. I think I am winning, but it has not been a walk in the park as it seems to have been to the better players. I think I made a few critical mistakes in the early game that made it much more difficult to recover later. More on that when I write the report.

 

[Gliese 581]

@TheMeInTeam: I think it's a good idea to try difficulties that are quite a bit above your usual level. You'll learn faster what works and what doesn't. Back in the days when I was still playing monarch, I went for immortal right away too. I can tell you I lost quite a lot of games before getting my first win.

@Olodune: Grats on your win.

@Dirk: Grats on your win as well. All cool kids go to space at 1876!

@Gliese: There's still you, rolo and silver playing I think. But take it easy, no need to rush.

In so many words,

 

[Rusten]

@Gliese 581

Spoiler :

Think you're being a tad too pessimistic about your game; it's looking quite decent. You may not have tech superiority, but land superiority is just as good, and once you get those cities running you'll burst. If you focus you can come out on top. Carthage and Utica both having an academy and a settled GS helps as well once they mature. Looking forward to your next rounds, your game is very interesting to follow.

 

[Gliese 581]

@Gliese 581

Spoiler :

Think you're being a tad too pessimistic about your game; it's looking quite decent. You may not have tech superiority, but land superiority is just as good, and once you get those cities running you'll burst. If you focus you can come out on top. Carthage and Utica both having an academy and a settled GS helps as well once they mature. Looking forward to your next rounds, your game is very interesting to follow.

Spoiler :

Thanks, I've put more hours than is healthy into this one but it's been a ton of fun, also reading about the games of the rest of you. I'm especially impressed with your game and Burn's though I haven't finished reading them yet since they could still contain spoilers about resources and such.
I wonder how my game would have looked if I had gone for Liberalism instead and done a musketman/cuirassier or rifleman rush. I think it might have been a little better but probably not an easy war anyhow since Hannibal was in a clear first position at the time.
I also wish I had finished him of, but more on that later.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Gliese 582 and Olodune

Spoiler :

Indeed it's Gilgamesh, well he can't do much harm there

 

[Dirk1302]

(missed this post earlier)

Agree with everything you said considering rushing alternatives for the exact same reason; the faster you can start recovering your economy the better. I've tried both approaches several times and the early rush is far more effective in my experience.

I also find Pangea challenging and a lot of fun. I played that map a lot before, but people kept saying it was much easier than other maps so I abandoned it and haven't played it for a while. However, after playing through all there is of standard maps I can't say I agree with that statement at all so i will probably go back to that and fractal mostly.

Every time I play continents (considered a tough map) I find it really easy to dominate my continent as there are only 3 or 4 Ais, whereas on Pangea you'll still have 5 of them left surrounding you if you take out 1. This means you have to be much more careful in every aspect from diplomacy to war to avoid getting dogpiled and taken out or set back too much to recover. It becomes a lot harder to gain land peacefully and you share borders with many more AIs so it all becomes a lot less predictable than a continents map. I too would like a game on pangea as that map is seldom used officially (unfortunately).

PS: This is not related to the game at hand at all and a general strategic post concerning immortal difficulty.

I hadn't played Pangae before because it was considered easy, i usually play fractal but i sometimes got boxed in so i chose pangae to examine best rushing practises. Then i found out how hard it can be. Imagine Ghenghis on your left, Shaka on your right some techers at the far edge of the world, very hard. Another feature making this map hard is the generally fast tech pace so longbows come early for the techers (saw Vicky having them 600 bc once.) So a Pangae map would be interesting to play and discuss.

Was impressed by your game attacking with Muskets and Cuirassiers. Iirc U Sun did this in his Justininan game. Did you breakdown defences with spies or just crash through the cultural defence by force. Muskets are indeed underrated i almost always use them in large quantities together with Cannons, they're as good for the job as Rifles really once the Cannons have done their job, just have to mixe in some pikes againt Knights. In this game research was just too fast so i ended up with rifles.

 

[Rusten]

I hadn't played Pangae before because it was considered easy, i usually play fractal but i sometimes got boxed in so i chose pangae to examine best rushing practises. Then i found out how hard it can be. Imagine Ghenghis on your left, Shaka on your right some techers at the far edge of the world, very hard. Another feature making this map hard is the generally fast tech pace so longbows come early for the techers (saw Vicky having them 600 bc once.) So a Pangae map would be interesting to play and discuss.

Was impressed by your game attacking with Muskets and Cuirassiers. Iirc U Sun did this in his Justininan game. Did you breakdown defences with spies or just crash through the cultural defence by force. Muskets are indeed underrated i almost always use them in large quantities together with Cannons, they're as good for the job as Rifles really once the Cannons have done their job, just have to mixe in some pikes againt Knights. In this game research was just too fast so i ended up with rifles.

I remember U Sun using cuirassiers as well, but I don't think he used that many muskets, he was doing a quick sweep with 2 movement units IIRC. However It's been a while since I read that thread so I could be wrong. Too bad the pictures are gone, that was a really great game.

I used spies in some cities and forced myself into others. It depended on the number of garrison units and whether they were on a hill. Revolted the first three at least as I didn't want to lose my army that early, but with time and Hannibal's power fading they weren't necessary anymore. Cuirassiers can take on longbowmen even without lowering the cultural defences as they're immune to first strikes. Usually would have mixed in some pikes, but in this particular game Hannibal lacked horses, so they weren't necessary. I forgot this while playing though and upgraded my muskets to anti-mounted, pretty stupid. When the war/game is won it's easy to start playing a little sloppy.

 

[Dirk1302]

You're right i think about U sun using only Cuirassiers and they can indeed be very powerful. I always thought Mil trad had been nerfed considerably in BTS but with the possibility of spies taking down defence these beasts might be at least as strong as cavs in warlords. They're roughly even against pikes so there'll generally be some losses i think.

So after one game here i 've learned 3 new concepts already

- Going for Currency instead of Col after war
- Moving capital, i've seen from other games that Paris does generate more science if cottaged properly than Tenochtitlan maybe not so relevant this game, i was in free speech asap but in a more SE/FE like game where buro stays a good civic for a long time i can easily see this making a difference
- Using Cuirassiers, i knew this was a possiblity from U Sun's game but i never seriously considered it

So for starting this thread silverbullet. I hope we get to do some more games as there is generally not enough info on playing immortal+. I recommend Pangae as a stern test.