The Very Many Questions-Not-Worth-Their-Own-Thread Thread XXXII

[Traitorfish]

I don't understand how you can think tiresome clichés and falsehoods make for jokes

Nobody has suggested that you should.

Yes, but you could also listen to the Norwegian.
If you had just used some other eldritcht thing instead of Cthulu, everything would be fine.
Lovecraft really gets away too often with describing something as indescribable.

It should really be pretty clear at this point that I've never actually read a Lovecraft story.

 

[Takhisis]

Anybody good with Latin? I'm working my way through Einhard's Vita Karoli Magni, and I'm struggling with the bolded clause below:

Suberat et alia non inrationabilis, ut opinor, causa, quae uel sola sufficere posset ad haec scribenda conpelleret, nutrimentum uidelicet in me inpensum et perpetua, postquam in aula eius conuersari coepi, cum ipso ac liberis eius amicitia; qua me ita sibi deuinxit debitoremque tam uiuo quam mortuo constituit, ut merito ingratus uideri et iudicari possem, si ego tot beneficiorum in me conlatorum inmemor clarissima et inlustrissima hominis optime de me meriti gesta silentio praeterirem patererque uitam eius, quasi qui numquam uixerit, sine litteris ac debita laude manere; cui scribendae atque explicandae non meum ingeniolum, quod exile et paruum, immo poene nullum est, sed Tullianam par erat desudare facundiam.

I get the gist of what the clause is saying; that composing [this biography] is so difficult that it would stretch not only his own (Einhard's) capacities for eloquence (which are indeed slim and scarcely existent) but would even cause someone on the level of Tullius (Cicero) to sweat.

What I'm struggling to understand is why the subjects of the relative clause (introduced by cui), namely "meum ingeniolum" and "Tullianam facundiam" are in the accusative. As far as I can tell it's not indirect speech. Although the forms being subject accusatives would explain it, and indeed would also point to why desudo is in its infinitive form, I don't see a clause or verb introducing the indirect speech.

Beyond that, They aren't objects of the gerundives (scribendae/explicandae). They aren't future passive conjugations; for that est and erat would have to be sunt and erant, respectively. Dative of possession constructions don't take the accusative. There is no accusative agent (I think?). I don't see what it could be.

From wiki:

In Latin, nouns, adjectives, or pronouns in the accusative case (accusativus) can be used

• as direct object.
• to indicate duration of time. E.g., multos annos, "for many years"; ducentos annos, "for 200 years." This is known as the accusative of time. Compare the ablative of time, which was used for most points in time except—in classical Latin—for dates of the form ante diem N. Kal./Non./Id., which followed Greek in taking the accusative.
• to indicate direction towards which. E.g. domum, "homewards"; Romam, "to Rome" with no preposition needed. This is known as the accusative of place to which, and is equivalent to the lative case found in some other languages.
• as the subject of an indirect statement (e.g. Dixit me fuisse saevum, "He said that I had been cruel;" in later Latin works, such as the Vulgate, such a construction is replaced by quod and a regularly structured sentence, having the subject in the nominative: e.g., Dixit quod ego fueram saevus).
• with case-specific prepositions such as "per" (through), "ad" (to/toward), and "trans" (across).
• in exclamations, such as me miseram, "wretched me" (spoken by Circe to Ulysses in Ovid's Remedium Amoris; note that this is feminine: the masculine form would be me miserum).

It should really be pretty clear at this point that I've never actually read a Lovecraft story.

Hence why my reference to Scottish weather flew over your head.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Hence why my reference to Scottish weather flew over your head.

Scottish weather is always over TF's head.

 

[Traitorfish]

Over my head, round my ears, and up my kilt.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Over my head, round my ears, and up my kilt.

Sounds like the itinerary of a particularly bold gnat.

 

[Takhisis]

Not that bold. The gnat is staying out of TF's beard.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not that bold. The gnat is staying out of TF's beard.

I was thinking that might be where it came from.

 

[Takhisis]

Yes… today we have a temperature of under 20 degrees, it's cloudy, wet, rainy, grey, and altogether depressing. It feels as if Scottish weather had been brought here.

 

[Birdjaguar]

cui scribendae atque explicandae non meum ingeniolum, quod exile et paruum, immo poene nullum est, sed Tullianam par erat desudare facundiam.

"Cute female scribes were exiled to England even though they had done nothing, but it was because they did nothing that they were sent there." Latin is pretty intuitive.

 

[Takhisis]

"Cute female scribes were exiled to England even though they had done nothing, but it was because they did nothing that they were sent there." Latin is pretty intuitive.

No. I'll dispute that. To be a scribe you have to have done something. It can't be that they did nothing, because scribes are supposed to do something. Your Latin is decidedly dodgy (or posssibly doggy). QNED

 

[Birdjaguar]

No. I'll dispute that. To be a scribe you have to have done something. It can't be that they did nothing, because scribes are supposed to do something. Your Latin is decidedly dodgy (or posssibly doggy). QNED

Well "scribendae" in actual use could also mean prostitute depending upon the context. That would fit better here. "scribendae" were the women kept in monasteries for the pleasure of the bishops, but often referred to as scribes because they manipulated pens [short for penis].

 

[sophie]

From wiki:

In Latin, nouns, adjectives, or pronouns in the accusative case (accusativus) can be used

• as direct object.
• to indicate duration of time. E.g., multos annos, "for many years"; ducentos annos, "for 200 years." This is known as the accusative of time. Compare the ablative of time, which was used for most points in time except—in classical Latin—for dates of the form ante diem N. Kal./Non./Id., which followed Greek in taking the accusative.
• to indicate direction towards which. E.g. domum, "homewards"; Romam, "to Rome" with no preposition needed. This is known as the accusative of place to which, and is equivalent to the lative case found in some other languages.
• as the subject of an indirect statement (e.g. Dixit me fuisse saevum, "He said that I had been cruel;" in later Latin works, such as the Vulgate, such a construction is replaced by quod and a regularly structured sentence, having the subject in the nominative: e.g., Dixit quod ego fueram saevus).
• with case-specific prepositions such as "per" (through), "ad" (to/toward), and "trans" (across).
• in exclamations, such as me miseram, "wretched me" (spoken by Circe to Ulysses in Ovid's Remedium Amoris; note that this is feminine: the masculine form would be me miserum).

Hence why my reference to Scottish weather flew over your head.

And such is the problem as, best as I can tell, none of those uses apply here, unless it was a clause of indirect speech, but, again, I see no verb or phrase introducing indirect speech.

That being said, it may be an adverbial accusative:

§126 Adverbial Accusative
"When a noun, pronoun, or adjective in the accusative case is used adverbially to express the extent to which the action of a verb is performed, it is called an Adverbial Accusative. For example:

Nihil has litteras intellegimus.
To the extent (of) nothing this letter (d.o.) we understand
Not at all do we understand this letter.

Tantum me non amas quantum te amo
For so great an extent me (d.o.) you do not love as great an extent you (d.o.) I love.
You do not love me as much as I love you.

Friggin' Latin

 

[Birdjaguar]

Tantum me non amas quantum te amo
For so great an extent me (d.o.) you do not love as great an extent you (d.o.) I love.
You do not love me as much as I love you.

That's why they were exiled to England!!!

 

[Takhisis]

And such is the problem as, best as I can tell, none of those uses apply here, unless it was a clause of indirect speech, but, again, I see no verb or phrase introducing indirect speech.

It seems to fit…?

This is why Finno-ugric languages with their essive, terminative, distributive, instrumental, etc. cases are better.

That's why they were exiled to England!!!

QNED

/thread

 

[sophie]

It seems to fit…?

Except there's no "iudicio" or "arbitror" "dixi", etc., particularly as the clause is introduced by a relative pronoun, which obviates the need for indirect speech.

 

[Takhisis]

<gestures helplessly>

 

[Mouthwash]

Except there's no "iudicio" or "arbitror" "dixi", etc., particularly as the clause is introduced by a relative pronoun, which obviates the need for indirect speech.

Even pretentious writers of antique languages can make spelling and grammar errors.

 

[sophie]

Mmm not for a book, and more particularly not for the Prologue of a book written by one of the better Latin speakers/writers of the 9th century. There is, moreover, nothing in my set of companion notes to the text identifying a copyist or other kind of error.

It's something I'm missing, I just don't know what.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Tullianum is Cicero, Marcus Tullius Cicero; earlier ages tended to call him Tully, where we call him Cicero. That's probably not what's troubling you with the passage.

Also, Latin scholarship was crap during the Middle Ages. People serious about the language have to learn Medieval Latin as its own whole thing. So don't assume this:

written by one of the better Latin speakers/writers of the 9th century

means anything.

If I get some time, I'll see if I can puzzle my way through the clause that troubles you. My Latin's rusty, and I was slow with it back when it was at its most well-oiled.

Flying Pig has struck me as an able Latinist. He hasn't seemed to be too active lately, but you might PM him.

Say, my own question. I hope it doesn't get lost in the shuffle of this Latin stuff:

Can one use iTunes to just play a CD, without uploading the tracks off the CD onto one's iTunes library? And if so, how?

Edit: Never mind. The second time I tried firing it up, it did display the contents of my CD. But here's a new question. Is there a trick for getting it to play just, say, three selected tracks and then stop?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I hate peanut butter and honey, but there are foods that incorporate them that I enjoy. I wouldn't know that if I didn't try them.

Okay, now I'm curious. What about peanut butter cups? I developed my own recipe for the filling, which includes peanut butter, honey, and maraschino cherry syrup (sounds disgustingly sweet but it really isn't, and the syrup is there for texture; there's just the faintest hint of cherry).