The Very Many Questions-Not-Worth-Their-Own-Thread Thread XXXII

[Mouthwash]

As far as I know, my friend from Kuwait could undersand another friend from Egypt, and as well one from Iraq.
So it's maybe not that different?
(not that I know, just a guess).

Iraqi, I don't know. But certainly Gulf Arabic wouldn't be mutually intelligible with Egyptian.

I doubt your friend spoke Gulf Arabic to his friends. Maybe he spoke MSA, but there are also a lot of foreign Arabs in the Gulf states (Kuwaiti Palestinians before the Gulf War numbered almost half a million). Plus, Egyptian is the most popular language in the Arab world aside from MSA itself.

 

[Takhisis]

I suppose those courses teach Modern Standard Arabic:

Modern Standard Arabic (MSA; Arabic: اللغة العربية الفصحى‎ al-lughat ul-ʻArabīyat ul-fuṣḥá 'the most eloquent Arabic language'), Standard Arabic, or Literary Arabic is the standardized and literary variety of Arabic used in writing and in most formal speech throughout the Arab world to facilitate communication. It is considered a pluricentric language.

Most Western scholars distinguish two standard (al-)fuṣḥá (الفصحى) varieties of Arabic: the Classical Arabic (CA) (اللغة العربية التراثية al-lughah al-ʻArabīyah al-turāthīyah) of the Quran and early Islamic (7th to 9th centuries) literature, and Modern Standard Arabic (MSA) (اللغة العربية المعيارية الحديثة al-lughah al-ʻArabīyah al-miʻyārīyah al-ḥadīthah), the standard language in use today. MSA is based on classical Arabic, and differences between the two varieties of the language are directly related to modernizing and simplification, both in speaking and writing styles. Most Arabic speakers consider the two varieties to be two registers of one language, although the two registers can be referred to in Arabic as فصحى العصر fuṣḥá l-ʻaṣr (MSA) and فصحى التراث fuṣḥá t-turāth (CA).​

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: I have split the cave calendar discussion off into this thread, but in future, please try to remember that this is not the thread for questions that will take tens of posts to answer or discuss.

 

[Mouthwash]

I suppose those courses teach Modern Standard Arabic:

Modern Standard Arabic (MSA; Arabic: اللغة العربية الفصحى‎ al-lughat ul-ʻArabīyat ul-fuṣḥá 'the most eloquent Arabic language'), Standard Arabic, or Literary Arabic is the standardized and literary variety of Arabic used in writing and in most formal speech throughout the Arab world to facilitate communication. It is considered a pluricentric language.

Most Western scholars distinguish two standard (al-)fuṣḥá (الفصحى) varieties of Arabic: the Classical Arabic (CA) (اللغة العربية التراثية al-lughah al-ʻArabīyah al-turāthīyah) of the Quran and early Islamic (7th to 9th centuries) literature, and Modern Standard Arabic (MSA) (اللغة العربية المعيارية الحديثة al-lughah al-ʻArabīyah al-miʻyārīyah al-ḥadīthah), the standard language in use today. MSA is based on classical Arabic, and differences between the two varieties of the language are directly related to modernizing and simplification, both in speaking and writing styles. Most Arabic speakers consider the two varieties to be two registers of one language, although the two registers can be referred to in Arabic as فصحى العصر fuṣḥá l-ʻaṣr (MSA) and فصحى التراث fuṣḥá t-turāth (CA).​

I'm aware of what MSA is. Do you know that it's what they're referring to, or is it an assumption? What do you know that I don't?

 

[Borachio]

Strange though that Egyptian isn't the official language of Egypt, while MSA is.

Presumably Egyptians don't have much trouble understanding MSA.

So if someone wanted to learn a language that was useful in Egypt, and elsewhere, MSA would be the one to go for.

As far as I know, Egyptian is a mainly spoken dialect of MSA anyway.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I believe Egyptian survived as Coptic but it's a minority language compared to Arabic.

 

[Mouthwash]

As far as I know, Egyptian is a mainly spoken dialect of MSA anyway.

No, it isn't (any more than Spanish is a dialect of Latin).

Presumably Egyptians don't have much trouble understanding MSA.

Apparently it is more of a 'high class' thing.

I believe Egyptian survived as Coptic but it's a minority language compared to Arabic.

We're talking about Egyptian Arabic, not ancient Egyptian.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I am seeing many language-learning programs offering "Arabic." It's unclear what this means and I haven't found an answer on Google (hell, even Google Translate has an "Arabic" option with no explanation provided). Arabic is actually divided into many separate languages, often called 'dialects' by Arabists and gullible Westerners, and they are not mutually intelligible. So perhaps these are all referring to Modern Standard Arabic, but that would mean they are simply dismissing the languages of half a billion people.

Can anyone shed light on this?

So one of my best friends studies arabic, and I've gathered up a little bit

In his courses, the main focus has been on standard arabic (from my conversations with him I haven't heard about differences between modern and classical, but I assume it's modern), but also a bit on "dialects"

Apparantly most fit into to branches, labeled as egyptian and syrian (or masr and sham lol). As far as I've understood, Iraqian and peninsular arabic are considered part of syrian (despite some of those places being closer to Egypt). So I my impression is that you might as well call it asian and african arabic. I believe most "dialects" within each of the two major branches are mutually intelligble, while it can get a bit harder between differences in the two major branches.
Of course, there's a huge difference between how well mutual intelligibility is for native speakers and those who have learned it at adult age.

Also, maroccan is apparantly very distinct from other kinds of arabic, so it's not considered egyptian, and is outside the main two branches. The same for maltese, which has heavy italian influence for example (and I believe that one isn't even written with arabic script, but I might be wrong on that)

 

[Arwon]

I am seeing many language-learning programs offering "Arabic." It's unclear what this means and I haven't found an answer on Google (hell, even Google Translate has an "Arabic" option with no explanation provided). Arabic is actually divided into many separate languages, often called 'dialects' by Arabists and gullible Westerners, and they are not mutually intelligible. So perhaps these are all referring to Modern Standard Arabic, but that would mean they are simply dismissing the languages of half a billion people.

Can anyone shed light on this?

It'll be MSA as a written standard. That's the official language and the generally used written and printed form. It's probably Formal Spoken Arabic or something conceptually similar as a spoken variety. Ie it'll be the MSA-related kind of Arabic which is spoken in cross-dialect conversions. That'll be what general purpose teaching material is designed around. Stuff on specific vernacular Arabics would be supplemental, and tailored to specific needs.

MSA really exists in diglossia (a stable coexistence of two languages or dialects separated by usage contexts) with the various spoken varieties. Generally one assumes that most people speak both the standard school-taught variety, which is usually used in publication, and their own local Arabic which is on some TV.

You're right that the colloquial varieties aren't really all one language but this is a case where the delineation is political and probably not worth the argument. Similarly to the case of all the "varieties of Chinese", a standard written form, near-universal bilingualism and diglossia, and a shared sense of identity can cover a lot of mutual unintelligibility. It's the opposite of the idea that Hindu and Urdu or Serbian and Croatian are different.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

We're talking about Egyptian Arabic, not ancient Egyptian.

Strange though that Egyptian isn't the official language of Egypt, while MSA is.

Another gotcha! moment spoiled by what people actually posted.

 

[Mouthwash]

Another gotcha! moment spoiled by what people actually posted.

I'm not sure why you've felt the need to hound me lately (or what the two sentences you quoted have to do with each other), but I would like a bit more elaboration in your posts. Doable?

 

[Takhisis]

I suppose those courses teach Modern Standard Arabic:

I'm aware of what MSA is. Do you know that it's what they're referring to, or is it an assumption? What do you know that I don't?

If I use the word ‘suppose’, what do you suppose that my post reflects? Knowledge or assumption?

 

[Mouthwash]

If I use the word ‘suppose’, what do you suppose that my post reflects? Knowledge or assumption?

Well, some people have told me that I'm arrogant, and disagreeable, so I was hesitant to disparage your post without giving you an opportunity to save face. But if you dislike that, I'll gladly redouble my pedantry.

 

[Takhisis]

Are you really willing to fight pedantry with pedantry, my good sir?

 

[Mouthwash]

You betcha.

 

[Commodore]

How much sawdust can I put in my rice crispy treats before people notice?

 

[Birdjaguar]

20%, but you'll probably have to add more sugar.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

How much sawdust can I put in my rice crispy treats before people notice?

Depends on what kind of sawdust you are using. Some woods have a very strong taste, whereas a good kiln dried pine will be a lot less noticeable.

 

[Mouthwash]

Personal question: I am invited to see a well-known DJ (with VIP tickets) in Tel Aviv. Now I'm not into his music, or partying or dancing in general, but I already have far too little of a social life. Even so, it does feel a little dishonest to have my friend use her ticket on someone who doesn't even appreciate the music. And I'm horrible at dancing (don't think I have ever done it, in fact).

Any advice from someone more familiar with parties?

 

[Arakhor]

Have you explained any of this to your friend in a tactful manner?