The votes are in: Jesus wins

[Bozo Erectus]

Dont worry, Christianity Month is almost over here in Bozoville. I just have one more thought to share on the topic. The other night they showed Jesus Christ Superstar, and about halfway through it I was blown away by a revelation. This person lived a short life and died long ago, but here we are over 2000 years later, and people are still writing tacky musicals about him. Youd have to be parachuted into the deepest darkest parts of the Amazon rain forest to find people who have never heard of him. Two thousand years after he died, at any given moment, all over the world there are people in the process of dying, who's final words are prayers to him. Ive realised that it doesnt matter if Jesus was the son of God or not (well, we're all children of God, but you know what I mean), if he performed all of those miracles, or said half of the things that have been attributed to him. All of those things may not have occurred back then, but it no longer matters, and hasnt mattered for a very long time, because its true now. We all collectively, the human race itself, have made it true. How many people knew Jesus back when he was alive, a hundred maybe? How many people know Jesus today, 6 billion? Not even counting all of those who in the past lived and died believing in him, but who are now gone. How many more billions will know of him in the future? If reality is a democracy, and increasingly, it appears to be, then the hundred or so people who knew him in life and knew that he was just a man with a vision would be outvoted. We cant take credit for creating God, but I think we can for creating his Son.

My two shekels.

 

[Sidhe]

In your face Jesus I outlived you

Sorry I got that off an Onion article.

Big up the J-dog inda house fo shizzle, aright. Respect.

I'm sorry I appear to have been possessed by an African American. :/

 

[Phlegmak]

If this was 500 years ago, you'd be burned for stating those things, heretic.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

If this was 500 years ago, you'd be burned for stating those things, heretic.

I think I might have been able to get away with it if I merely whispered it to St Augustine as he passed me the wine.

 

[El_Machinae]

If reality is a democracy, and increasingly, it appears to be,

Er, what?
Only some groups of people believe this (and, I'd think (amusingly) they're in a minority).

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Er, what?
Only some groups of people believe this (and, I'd think (amusingly) they're in a minority).

The human reality. The human universe of ideas, which is only tenuously connected with that other Reality. Maybe if we were shrunk to the quantum level, we could also invent 'objective' reality up as we went along, like we do with our human reality. Hmmmm....

 

[De Lorimier]

Just like the Santa symbol is real now even though good ol' St-Nich died a long time ago. We're good at creating and entertaining myths and folkloric tales as a group, that we can agree on. And I will give humans credit for creating gods too.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Just like the Santa symbol is real now even though good ol' St-Nich died a long time ago. We're good at creating and entertaining myths and folkloric tales as a group, that we can agree on. And I will give humans credit for creating gods too.

Its like how every now and then a historian informs us sagely that George Washington never really chopped down a cherry tree and said he couldnt tell a lie. Jesus is the Son of God and when he was among us, performed many miracles, simply because billions of people have decided that its so. When everyone has forgotten him, if thats possible at this point, he'll rejoin us in the ranks of the mortals. Look at poor little Pluto. Pluto hasnt change one iota in the past billion years or so. The only thing thats changed is the opinion of a handful of graybeards at a conference somewhere.

 

[punkbass2000]

The human universe of ideas, which is only tenuously connected with that other Reality.

Not true. They are closely linked.

 

[Perfection]

I'm sorry to say that popular belief that something is true doesn't make it true.

 

[Bill3000]

I'm sorry to say that popular belief that something is true doesn't make it true.

I'd say that he was more talking about [wiki]truthiness[/wiki] than truth, myself.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Not true. They are closely linked.

Wheres the link between the objective reality around us, and the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' in our human reality? Or something more mundane than that: the amazing value we put on certain types of rocks because theyre shiny. Or the link between politics and reality? Gold is only valuable because humans happen to like shiny things. The only place where Democracy and Communism exist is in our minds, but humans think all of these things are important enough to kill one another for, in huge numbers.

Unless youre saying that theres a very firm link between the two realities in our brains (if not our minds).

edit: just realized, not only the ideas that we value are complete human fabrications, so is the very concept of value itself.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I'm sorry to say that popular belief that something is true doesn't make it true.

'True' is whatever a majority of people believe. Science is no different. Scientific facts are whatever a majority of scientists agree on at any given moment.

I'd say that he was more talking about [wiki]truthiness[/wiki] than truth, myself.

Sort of I guess, but I dont think that word quite covers it though. Its much much bigger than mere 'truthiness'

 

[Sidhe]

Bozo are you comparing science to religion? That's a bit of a non starter is it not as an argument? They aren't really remotely similar.

 

[TheBladeRoden]

I want Jesus to have my baby, and thus spring a cult spanning thousands of years dedicated to keeping it secret. But then a whistle blower comes forth and they make a movie about it. And the whistle blower will actually be Jesus' decendent, because he knew he'd make a butt load of money off of it. His unlimited greed was from my genes, I bet.

Oh yeah, Wikiality FTW

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Bozo are you comparing science to religion? That's a bit of a non starter is it not as an argument? They aren't really remotely similar.

They are in one key and very important way: both are human inventions, and only exist in the human universe of ideas.

 

[Sidhe]

They are in one key and very important way: both are human inventions, and only exist in the human universe of ideas.

Well if that's the only key similarity between the two it's still a bad comparison as they differ completely on the way they are founded and how they are applied. You might as well say philosophy is analagous to science is analagous to religion, I'm sure practitioners of any would have reason to dispute that.

 

[Perfection]

'True' is whatever a majority of people believe.

No it isn't. Truth is dependant on the nature of physical reality, it's not just all in our heads.

 

[Hygro]

No it isn't. Truth is dependant on the nature of physical reality, it's not just all in our heads.

Right but its the perception of reality that actually matters.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No it isn't. Truth is dependant on the nature of physical reality, it's not just all in our heads.

Our conclusions about the nature of physical reality are restricted to whatever information our senses are able to process and deliver to the brain. Its like trying to follow a baseball game by observing it through a hole you made in the fence thats the width of a pin.

BTW, if you believe in objective truth thats part of the fabric of the universe itself, and has nothing to do with our heads, why not just go ahead and change the label 'Truth' to 'God',