The votes are in: Jesus wins

[GenMarshall]

Sorry, I'm just confused as to how a post,

1. Insulting religious people twice.

2. Damning the human race as intellectually lazy and sheep-like. A race you are indeed a member of yet of course not subject to the mental failings of no doubt.

Thats Curt for yah. Whenever a religious thread pops in, he comes in and attacks what he calls the "Crusaders".

On the hole, it is getting very tireing to hear from posters like him that religious people are "stupid" and "too lazy to think for themselves". But, moving on.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Not since day 1 Bozo, more like day 3.

Ok, Ive gone back to check the records and youre correct, but it looks like God was already doing it on day one

Not really. The earth has never been at the center of the universe.

Thats what a 21st century person believes, yes.

We may never be right in everything we know, but our being right or not does not affect physical nature.

That may or may not be the case, but the fact is that our perceptions and opinions of physical, 'objective' reality change just as frequently as those we have for our 'subjective' human reality. Sometimes the Earth is the center of the universe, sometimes it isnt. Sometimes slavery is a good thing, sometimes it isnt. Everything depends on who you ask, and when.

A rock doesn't change over the years simply because our perception of it always changes.

Maybe not, but since the only thing we've got are our perceptions, ultimately, arent they all that matters?

 

[punkbass2000]

Thats what a 21st century person believes, yes.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

That may or may not be the case, but the fact is that our perceptions and opinions of physical, 'objective' reality change just as frequently as those we have for our 'subjective' human reality. Sometimes the Earth is the center of the universe, sometimes it isnt. Sometimes slavery is a good thing, sometimes it isnt. Everything depends on who you ask, and when.

I think we have gotten to the point where neither of us will budge.

I still believe it doesn't change physical reality. Hell, we could always be wrong, and never know where the earth really is, but that doesn't change where it is. Our perception can't affect physical location.

If we can be 99.9% sure that we are right, can't we accept that.

Maybe not, but since the only thing we've got are our perceptions, ultimately, arent they all that matters?

Now this is where it gets interesting. Ultimately, human perception and what we believe usually has a lot of significance, even if we are all wrong.

Thanks for making me think.

 

[Birdjaguar]

If we can be 99.9% sure that we are right, can't we accept that.

I would suggest that for many many years people believed that all things were made up of earth air fire and water to a confidence level of around 99%. I guess it was good enough then.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Maybe not, but since the only thing we've got are our perceptions, ultimately, arent they all that matters?

Or they might be the biggest obstacle we have to understanding Truth.

 

[punkbass2000]

Yes, but they're designed to do that.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yes, but they're designed to do that.

Yes they are.

I guess Sidhe, cartesianfart and PA are not going to answer my question about music. Too bad, that had some potential for discussion.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

If we can be 99.9% sure that we are right, can't we accept that.

Hundred percent certainty is just as impossible as going at 100% the speed of light. We should definitely be willing to accept 99%, but I think we'll get to 99% the speed of light before that ever happens.

Now this is where it gets interesting. Ultimately, human perception and what we believe usually has a lot of significance, even if we are all wrong.

Yep, especially when nobody knows theyre wrong.

Thanks for making me think.

The world can sure use another thinking person

Or they might be the biggest obstacle we have to understanding Truth.

If we're talking the Big T Truth, they certainly dont help much but I dont think they can be singled out as being an obstacle. Just being what we are is the biggest obstacle. Its like how you couldnt say an ants antennas are its biggest obstacle to figuring out it lives in somebodies kitchen.

Yes, but they're designed to do that.

Nah, theyre designed to helps us find crumbs on the countertops

 

[punkbass2000]

No, that is literally what they are for. To create the illusions of separation and opposites.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No, that is literally what they are for. To create the illusions of separation and opposites.

They definitely contribute to our illusions and play their role, but I just dont think thats what theyre for. We're human beings, animals. We've got to eat, find shelter, resources, mates etc. We also need to be able to avoid that low hanging branch, and that rock straight ahead. Within the illusion of the physical universe, we are in fact seperate. Our sensory organs do play a part in our delusion, but theyre no more responsible for the illusion than our ankles. We're human thats the biggest obstacle.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

Oh yeah, I didnt really answer that. Truth is a moving target. We have an imaginary dart board where we order our truths. The bullseye represents certain core beliefs like that things fall 'down', and North America exists. As you get farther out from the bullseye, the truths become less and less concrete, and more fuzzy until we run out of dartboard. Then everything beyond that is 'crazy'. Or 'beyond this point there be dragons'. Things get added to and taken out of the bullseye zone, all the time. Isnt that how things have been since day one?

"Thats what a 21st century person believes, yes." Ta da! Take that rational thought! I just destroyed your whole point with my awesome powers of relativism.

Edit: screw the other stuff, address that for me.

 

[punkbass2000]

They definitely contribute to our illusions and play their role, but I just dont think thats what theyre for.

OK. You don't have to.

We're human beings, animals. We've got to eat, find shelter, resources, mates etc. We also need to be able to avoid that low hanging branch, and that rock straight ahead. Within the illusion of the physical universe, we are in fact seperate.

What creates this illusion?

Our sensory organs do play a part in our delusion, but theyre no more responsible for the illusion than our ankles.

It is the mind which is responsible.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You seem to be pushing relativism and subjectivism and they are both the destruction of rational thought when used where they don't belong.

I agree completely with that. Do relativism and subjectivism belong in a scenario where Ive robbed your house, or you backed over my poodle with your Hummer? Of course not. Does it belong in a philosophical discussion about the nature of reality? Sure, if not there, then where?

Judgements on objective reality are one such place. That is why I said questioning our judgement is nonsense. It means you are being literally nonsensical. If you say we can't make judgements about reality then the next words out of your mouth might as well be "gohlabud DtkfKw!"

I havent said "gohlabud DtkfKw!" in ages, Im passed that phase. Making these types of judgements about objective reality would be nonsensical if they were taken to the extreme of "Oh dont worry. In the grand scheme of things, we arent really speeding towards a brick wall at a 120 miles an hour."

Well hey then Bozo, you have fun there, simultaneously believing that we are making up reality as we go along and yet can still have rational discussions.

How can we have a rational discussion until we've figured out what rationality is?

I'll be over here, isolated as that crazy 21st century man, unable to think beyond his culture and time (in some indefinite way) and always crazily insisting on the fact that there has to be truth for there to be a discussion.

Or we can compartmentalize these things instead. We can agree that their are human truths which can change and do, constantly, and then theres Truth, which casts a shadow over the world we live in but doesnt play much of a role in the supermarket when we're trying to decide what brand of pasta to buy.

What creates this illusion?

God. For God knows what reasons.

It is the mind which is responsible.

The mind is limited by the brain. The brain is just a bunch of meat, like our sensory organs. Meat has certain definite limits.

 

[punkbass2000]

God. For God knows what reasons.

You already know that God is everything, including yourself. You know the reasons too.

The mind is limited by the brain. The brain is just a bunch of meat, like our sensory organs. Meat has certain definite limits.

There are three parts of a human: mind, body and soul. The soul is limitless; zero-dimensional. The mind limits its knowing and the body its feeling.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

"Thats what a 21st century person believes, yes." Ta da! Take that rational thought! I just destroyed your whole point with my awesome powers of relativism.

Edit: screw the other stuff, address that for me.

You know that if you lived at a different time, its very likely that youd have completely different ideas about the nature of reality, right? At a different time, PrincepsAmerica might have seen it as logical, obvious and completely rational to go down deep into caves and paint pictures of animals he likes to hunt, because they come out of the earth like plants, and putting a picture there is like planting a seed.

You already know that God is everything, including yourself.

Knowing is different from experiencing. And I dont really know that I know anything, if that makes any sense.

You know the reasons too.

If I do, Im not aware of it. Maybe its like a fossil in drawer for fifty years that goes unrecognized as the 'missing link'.

There are three parts of a human: mind, body and soul. The soul is limitless; zero-dimensional. The mind limits its knowing and the body its feeling.

I know Mind, I know Body, but not Soul. If we're going to say that Mind and Soul are seperate things, doesnt that make Soul ultimately unknowable? I think of mind and soul as being the same thing, just that what we experience as mind is all the soul we can handle while in these bodies. Unless of course if youre the Godfather of Soul

 

[punkbass2000]

Knowing is different from experiencing.

Very, very true. It is this principle on which the universe was created.

And I dont really know that I know anything, if that makes any sense.

It certainly does.

If I do, Im not aware of it. Maybe its like a fossil in drawer for fifty years that goes unrecognized as the 'missing link'.

You don't "know" it because your mind does not know it. Your soul need only remember.

I know Mind, I know Body, but not Soul.

Then this is what you seek.

If we're going to say that Mind and Soul are seperate things, doesnt that make Soul ultimately unknowable?

This is the process of life.

I think of mind and soul as being the same thing, just that what we experience as mind is all the soul we can handle while in these bodies.

Something like that. They're not the same thing. You use your mind and body to experience your soul.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You don't "know" it because your mind does not know it. Your soul need only remember.



Then this is what you seek.

Thats quite a quest youve given me, Obi Wan. Find the soul. Hmm.. Couldnt I just turn to the Dark Side and transform into Ray Milland instead?

Something like that. They're not the same thing. You use your mind and body to experience your soul.

You mean our more pleasant Hallmarky feelings?

 

[punkbass2000]

Thats quite a quest youve given me, Obi Wan. Find the soul. Hmm.. Couldnt I just turn to the Dark Side and transform into Ray Milland instead?

Certainly. But there are only Light Sides.

You mean our more pleasant Hallmarky feelings?

I'm unsure of your question.

To further clarify, the soul, as God, is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, whatever. To experience anything, it must no longer be everything. The mind and body limit appropriately.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

To further clarify, the soul, as God, is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, whatever. To experience anything, it must no longer be everything. The mind and body limit appropriately.

Ohhh ok, I see where youre coming from: Filters, sunglasses God isnt satisfied with just being ALL, he likes watching himself being ALL. We're God looking at himself in the mirror and saying "Man!You are awesome, dude!"