My dear Deneir. I go to bed for a few hours, and find this. There is enough material here to write a book on, probably a tragi-comedy given what some believe.
I'll try and start from the beginning. This could take a while.
"Saddam Hussiens weapon testing has not been going on for quite a while. Considering America and other powers of the UN have weapons of mass desctruction as well I think it stupid to be barking orders at Iraq. Nukes can hurt too. As for who does what in Iraq and all these atrocities, things can easily be manipulated (including the media, as it may suprise you) to further the backing of the nations people for a war on Iraq."
Well, Apeboy, the reasons that Hussein hasn't been testing weapons are not of his choosing. It is because we caused serious problems to his WMD development program last time around. But, without inspectors, it cannot be determined what is going on covertly.
The United States has a nuclear arsenal. True. But, if you cannot tell the difference between the US system and government and that of Iraq, then its time to get the transplant. It is not "stupid"; it is a fact of the world, of the realist political climate in which we live.
The United States is not employing chemical weapons against its own people. In terms of moral and political credibility, it wins hands down.
To oppose efforts to prevent a megalomaniac dictator acquiring WMD is plain stupid.
The atrocities committed by the regime of Saddam are documented, recorded and confirmed by all variety of sources. Only the lunatic fringe of extremist Arabism doubt them. These things happened. They were not media manipulations. They were uncovered, discussed and reviled long before any hostilities between the two states were contemplated.
"If America is so determined to root out terrorism then why don't they do anything against the IRA. The whole world has to be up in arms because America got attacked by terrorists but no-one came to Britians aid fighting against the IRA. The fact is American industrialist where even funding the IRA. How can you really believe the American government was and still is always looking after the intrests of the "free-world" and not just America."
America has taken action against the IRA, in shutting down arms smuggling rings through FBI and police investigations. If, however, you define 'action' by the Marines storming the beach outside Belfast, then you are deluded and lack understanding of international relations.
If Britain sought help from its ally, it would be provided.
As it is, the military campaign against the IRA by the British army, police and intelligence services was successful, in forcing them to abandon the armed struggle in favour of negotiation, a process that has gradually worked. Britain handled it by itself, and called for outside help in situations that required it. The IRA were also not bent on world domination, and the destruction of world civilization.
The fact that some Irish-Americans contributed to Noraid does not indict the American government and the whole society.
In the situation at the moment, the interests of America and the rest of the world are the same: destroy these monstrous beasts who declared war on the civilized world.
"Just how many innocent Iraqis will have to die to the almost random damage of the American air strikes? There are other ways to attack rather than inaccurate air attacks."
Are you sitting in on high level American military briefings? No.
So presuming that the only action will be punitive, 'random' airstrikes is illogical and plain wrong. If you had any knowledge of modern war, you would know that carpet bombing of urban areas in the manner of WWII is no longer the case. With precision munitions, civilian casualties can be kept to a minimum, whilst the ability of the enemy to wage war is destroyed by the manifestation of the ultimate airpower theory. This is the capability Douhet, Trenchard and Mitchell dreamed of.
But the operation will not be limited to air attacks, as was the predilection of the Clinton years, but ground troops will go in. Thus, they will be using "other ways to attack".
"I hardly consider a dodgy video tape which can barely be translated as hard proof."
It is more than one video tape, it is all the video tapes, all the documents, all the intelligence wrung out of the miserable captives at Gitmo, and all the previous indications (ie, the 1998 fatwa declaring war on America, and stating that it is the sacred duty of all Muslims to kill Americans and Jews). To badly quote a remark of Harry Callaghan, "when I see a man chasing a naked girl with a steak knife and an erection, I don't presume rape, I know it is."
UBL is as guilty as sin, and denying it is a mark of true stupidity. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not an area where opinions can be held. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. He was responsible.
And, as mentioned previously, they are not going to reveal all the evidence until due time, when operational security, and the protection of agents, is secure.
"On a side note. To Simon Darkshade:
I did not make a personal remark against you however you made several unneccesary remarks at me. Normally when I argue politics with many other people they keep it on the subject not on slandering me. You strike me as a very emmotional person. It is important when arguing about such subjects to leave your emmotions out. Your remarks where uncalled for but something we must come to expect when speaking to people on the internet."
Of course you did not make personal remarks about me. You made the first post, and had not yet responded. The remarks were not solely about you, but about all who are guilty of holding such irrational, bizarre and foolish opinions, and giving creedence to malversational conspiracy theories.
If you call my remarks slander or flaming, then you obviously have never really ARGUED politics in a real arena
, nor seen some of the less civil debate forums about the place. What you are saying is tripe, though.
As someone educated in this area, and knowing a fair bit about it, I know conclusively that it is incorrect. As a teacher and academic, I encounter the most bizarre opinions and statements on a daily basis, and can tell the wood from the cemetery trees.
And it is not the first time that some self righteous individual has rolled in here, and thought that he was unveiling these undeniable truths to everyone.
As to one being emotional, that is most amusing. As most of the other long term inmates here can testify, I am renowned for lacking emotions, and most other human characteristics. If you call my responses emotional and heated, then you have not seen what those really are.
And leaving emotion out of political debate is also a silly idea, as it removes us from what we are really talking about -real, human issues.
If you want to read some of my icy academic dissertations on the matters, go buy them from any local bad bookstore. They are under the counter with the porn.
My remarks were most called for, as you put forth a case that was truly ridiculous, and indicative of spurning the truth for conspiracy.
"The question has to be asked would America be considering attacking Iraq if the september 11 incodent had not happened?
And nothing has been hapening in Iraq recently. Where are all these murdered Iraqi's? It seems that Saddam has not been mass butchering recently."
It would still be under consideration, but the heinous acts have given further impetus towards the destruction of the enemies of America and freedom everywhere.
As to nothing happening in Iraq, how can it be known that Saddam has not been mass butchering lately. He has done it throughout his miserable, tyrannical reign.
The thing that really gets me is that some people, in their knee jerk anti-Americanism, end up defending poor little Saddam Hussein.
What next? Hitler was a victim of Yankee imperialism, British machinations and Communist conspiracy?
I too believe that we should try and minimize civilian casualties, and I believe that this will be done. It is the warfighting doctrine of the US armed forces, and those of its allies. The Assyrian approach is not that popular as it was a few thousand years ago...
Davo, I am not suprised you agree with Apeboy, but would say two things to all those of similar thinking: ask Occam if you can borrow his razor, and kneejerk reactions are not necessarily correct.
"Sounds like you really don't understand the IRA issue. I think you should go do some research into some of the IRA bombings before you make go dismissing them like that. It is such an arrogant opinion to simply dismiss the deaths of so many civilians like that"
Now, I know a little bit about this issue, and as far as I can tell, no one was downgrading the horror of the deaths of the PIRA victims. But they are a smaller, less powerful terrorist group than some of the soon to be atomized Muslim fundamentalist groups. They are localized, and do not have global ambitions. This does not make them any bit less reprehensible, but it does mean they are not a threat to the whole world, and have limitations on their actions. They are also following a ceasefire at the time of this writing, and are working slowly but surely with the peace process for an equitable solution to the Northern Ireland question.
On to Hitro.
"No, and that's one reason to be against it - stupid hypocrisy. Saddam hasn't changed in the past 10 years. Why is his threat so immanent now? Why didn't "they" take him out after Iraq expelled the weapons inspectors? Maybe Saddam was quite useful in justifying American presence in the gulf region?
Well now they have a new reason, so Saddam can go...
Of course that's all complete nonsense cause everything western governments tell their peoples is pure truth
Is interesting how easy it is to convince people of the official presentation of reality. Of course I can't say everything is a huge conspiracy. But can I just say everything is not?
Also interesting is how those who tend to automatically believe their governments in foreign affairs are often the ones that are whining about "big government" and that the evil government lies all the time."
Destroying a dictatorial regime is not a bad thing. Why didn't they go in when he expelled the weapons inspectors? Because it was the style of the time to lob in a few Tomahawks and hope that did the job.
I have never said that everything that governments say is pure truth, but just because this is the case does not mean the opposite is true.
And I am not one who complains about big government. Big government is good, as long as I am in charge, and called "Most Beloved Leader", and wear a natty moustache.
"How funny it is that the CIA trained Saddam Hussien. They created their own problem."
I fail to see the humour, and so would thousands of his victims. This was a mistake of the late 50s and early 60s. It is also irrelevant as to why he should not be blasted off the face of the earth.
"I don't think that it is acceptable to just go throwing your military might around like the Americans are. There are always other ways despite how hard it may be for some people to use their brains for something other than war. Im not saying Im a pacifist but I am saying that America has left it a little late to convince me that their crusade into the middle east is worth while. If they really hated Saddam Hussien so much they should of ended it during the Gulf war period. America probably wanted the presence. So Iraq lost the war I still don't think that allows the UN to poke into the business of Iraq. Saddam rules Iraq, Iraq belongs to the Iraqi. Thats a simple fact. If Saddam wants to build WMD than I don't think the UN has solid ground to say no whilst they also posses similar weapons. At the end of the day the Americans are the aggressers pure and simple. I for one will certainly be very unhappy if the UK follows the US into Iraq."
Simplistic foolishness. Saddam rules Iraq, end of story? That is more than foolish, it is downright silly. This reinforces what I said earlier about kneejerk pro-Iraq statements. Try and remember who it is you are talking about here...
America is not throwing its military might about; it is destroying the common enemies of humanity. Yes, common enemies, because, here is a suprise for you, Osama does not love you. He wants to kill you, and your family, regardless of beliefs, and destroy the way of life that allows you to express your opinion in this manner.
The reason that they did not push onto Baghdad was that they followed the UN directive, and acted in a multilateral fashion. They waged war to liberate Kuwait, and they did so.
"America probably wanted the presence" WHY? They were there already, and it costs more money, and causes more tension to remain there.
They are there on the invitation of the Saudi and Kuwaiti governments.
It is Europe who relies upon Middle Eastern oil more than the United States.
Iraq lost the war, and broke international law. The UN was perfectly within its rights to go in and inspect for WMD. Iraq had no business to poke into Kuwait, or send Scuds to poke into Israel.
If you believe there is no problem with a man of the calibre and character of Saddam Hussain to have WMD, then you have serious problems with your moral and logical compass. By the same token, what was being done to the Jews inside Nazi Germany was no business of the outside world, and they should have been allowed to continue??
The UN does not have WMD of its own. Its member states do, and they did kept the peace between the superpowers for many a year.
"At the end of the day the Americans are the aggressers pure and simple."
This is illogical, incorrect, and so far from the truth it is laughable. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the genepool...
You have the right to differing opinions, but should expect that if you put forth something like this, it will get rebutted, and sent to the dustbin of history where it belongs. Just remember you could not hold these differing opinions in Saddam's Iraq, the sovereignty of which you hold so dear, and that Al-Qaeda sees you as something to be wiped out, regardless of what you think.
"I for one will certainly be very unhappy if the UK follows the US into Iraq."
I'm sure Tony Blair will lose sleep over this.
Edit: Will address the rest of this most amusing stuff tommorrow, as Darkshade is busy tonight. :vampire:
This one is on me
