Proposal to End the Russia-Ukraine War

[Verbose]

Yes, and it would quickly win, most likely.

And ruin itself, like it is already ruining itself. While calling it all good. Russia chose perversity.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Question: why is it anyone's business beside Ukraine and NATO whether Ukraine joins NATO?

What gives Russia the right to have a say in the matter?

 

[r16]

answer: It is against the 1980s agreement you will reject to your dying breath .

am very willing to state the war happens because the good side was expected to fight to the last .

as for stuff , it is clear the roadmap to revitalize the Western Capitalism is not shared at all . The feeling about throwing some table scraps proven to be false , as in two years of rejecting being the design lead on something , hence it is what ı feel about the fight nearby . If people were not getting so agitated , they would have seen it has remained steady ... Much as the world has noticed in a fashion . Can live without live TV footage of people apologising . That's so ... North Korean .

 

[amadeus]

What gives Russia the right to have a say in the matter?

I guess the “right” hinges on whether the old balance of power politics that has been since … Westphalia? … is still relevant today. The right of any country to enforce its will on another isn’t exactly a moral one, it’s one of capacity.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I guess the “right” hinges on whether the old balance of power politics that has been since … Westphalia? … is still relevant today. The right of any country to enforce its will on another isn’t exactly a moral one, it’s one of capacity.

Then it's not a right is it? Unless one subscribes to the sentiment: it's my right because I can.

If that's the case, Russia has the right to steal as much of Ukraine and kill as many of it's civilians as is needed.

 

[Verbose]

Then it's not a right is it? Unless one subscribes to the sentiment: it's my right because I can.

If that's the case, Russia has the right to steal as much of Ukraine and kill as many of it's civilians as is needed.

War is a breech of international law. Such a thing exists because people created precisely because the non-regulated, might-is-right situation was not a good one. Still isn't.

There is the concept of justified war, which is mostly defensive war. Russia of course currently being what it is, throws up a lot of discourse about how everything it does is defensive. That is part of the act.

 

[amadeus]

If that's the case, Russia has the right to steal as much of Ukraine and kill as many of it's civilians as is needed.

In a sense.

But what if Russia had its own more powerful neighbor that can feign some historical grievance about land that hasn’t been part of their country for decades?

There’s a moral reason they shouldn’t, of course, but there’s a more practical one out there.

 

[Tee Kay]

What gives Russia the right to have a say in the matter?

What gives anyone the right to have anything at all

 

[Comrade Ceasefire]

Question: why is it anyone's business beside Ukraine and NATO whether Ukraine joins NATO?

What gives Russia the right to have a say in the matter?

Because you and others have chosen a date which somehow fixes in place borders that support your position.
Of course, if an earlier date was chosen, there would be no such entity as Ukraine, but that would be inconvenient for your position.
If an even earlier date was chosen it would be convenient for Turkey, inconvenient for Russia, etc. etc.
Go back even further, and Mongolia claims the territory.

Because the US has a dominant role in NATO decisions.

Because the US and several other nations have been at war (of one kind or another) with a break for WW2 since at least 1914.

Because Russia has more of an interest in the region, than for example, Spain, Italy, Belgium and others distant from the region.

Because Ukraine borders Russia, and there are many in the Donbas and adjoining regions who identify more with Russia than Ukraine.

Because Britain, France (and probably Sardinia!) think they have an actual influence over what happens in the region since their success in one of the Crimean Wars.

Because the West (especially the US, UK and France) think they have the right to draw lines on maps in permanent ink and still believe that they have the actual power to enforce them.

Because Ukrainian politicians were stupid to believe that they could could force a de-Russification of the Donbas, and that they would not face repercussions that end up with Ukraine as a land-locked, economic basket case.

Because Ukraine no longer has a reliable supply of electricity.

Because it's a moot question.

 

[Sarin]

Because you and others have chosen a date which somehow fixes in place borders that support your position.
Of course, if an earlier date was chosen, there would be no such entity as Ukraine, but that would be inconvenient for your position.
If an even earlier date was chosen it would be convenient for Turkey, inconvenient for Russia, etc. etc.
Go back even further, and Mongolia claims the territory.

Because the US has a dominant role in NATO decisions.

Because the US and several other nations have been at war (of one kind or another) with a break for WW2 since at least 1914.

Because Russia has more of an interest in the region, than for example, Spain, Italy, Belgium and others distant from the region.

Because Ukraine borders Russia, and there are many in the Donbas and adjoining regions who identify more with Russia than Ukraine.

Because Britain, France (and probably Sardinia!) think they have an actual influence over what happens in the region since their success in one of the Crimean Wars.

Because the West (especially the US, UK and France) think they have the right to draw lines on maps in permanent ink and still believe that they have the actual power to enforce them.

Because Ukrainian politicians were stupid to believe that they could could force a de-Russification of the Donbas, and that they would not face repercussions that end up with Ukraine as a land-locked, economic basket case.

Because Ukraine no longer has a reliable supply of electricity.

Because it's a moot question.

Ah, the tune of Russian propaganda.
The 1991 borders aren't something chosen arbitrarily. They've been agreed upon and enshrined in treaties between Ukraine, Russia and other countries. Those treaties have been signed amiably and in good will and haven't been dissolved by mutual agreement, but unilaterally violated by Russia. But that's inconvenient for you, isn't it....

The rest is even worse. Just strawmen pulled out or Rossia-1

 

[Gorbles]

Yeah, well, the story is several degrees of truth-or-we-make-it-truth away from the, you know, truth, if you can make a good enough case for it. In a lot of cases it's did you make off with a good payday or did you win and the big boy has to try to save face.

Sure, but if we change it from "everybody wins" the thread loses all distinction from any other thread on the topic. Maybe that's your goal?

The requirement is what creates the discussion value, or at least the bulk of it.

 

[Marla_Singer]

For multiple reasons, Russia is a country that requires showing itself strong in order to maintain its own unity. The problem is that Russia has now a population lower than Bangladesh. And this will only get worse with the number of Russian births being now even lower than the one of Afghanistan.

The mechanism which held the USSR together, basically ethnic Russians dominating other populations, still holds true within the Russian Federation. And that works only if ethnic Russians are felt as powerful. Hence why seeing former SSRs turning successful after independence, with ethnic Russians being relegated as secondary citizens, is felt as an internal threat within Russia. This, together with the idea that Russian demographics can only increase in expanding to their lost territories, is what I assume convince many Russians to support annexation wars beyond their own borders.

As long as this feeling remains alive, I can't see how there could be a long-lasting peace signed with Russia. The Kremlin will continue messing up in Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Kazakhstan and anywhere else to ensure that the status of ethnic Russians as minorities within independent states will remain challenged, and that feeling will survive even after Putin's death (no matter when that will happen).

 

[Crezth]

I have not seen any evidence that Ukraine is not the main political force pushing against Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

Feb ‘24: Trust in Zelensky: 64-35
Oct ‘23: 60% say fight, 31% negotiate

Those are the most recent figures I could find while on the train here. As far as I know, they are more accurate that any blind speculating—mine or yours.

The figures are precisely what they are, yes - but to what end? What do the figures really say? Yes they explain Zelensky won some elections, but these are the same elections contested by the Russian separatists as unfair. Zelensky is a politician riding a bull and he stuck around because he’s clever. But even as far as Ukrainian political power goes he is one man in a complex environment that cancels elections as necessary and throws grenades at city council meeting as necessary. Now the buck may well stop at the western Ukraine business alliance. But how can it, really, when they aren’t even footing the bill for this war?

 

[warpus]

Russia must return any territorial gains in Ukraine made during the current conflict / special military action
Ukraine must return any territorial gains in Russia (if any) made during the current conflict / special military action

1. Russia will never willingly return any territory they have occupied since 2014. This is the minimum required for a lasting peace, IMO. This would include Crimea, of course. Not only will Russia never willingly give up Crimea though, they will also never willingly give up any territory they currently occupy. They have said so, and you can't really believe anything they say, but it's on record. Putin passed a law that large parts of Ukrainian territory now belong to Russia. Undoing this law would be good first step towards peace. However, this is not going to happen unless Russia has no other choice..

2. What Russian territory has Ukraine ever occupied? Why is this even a point? Ukraine is on the defense, they have never occupied any Russian territory and they have zero plans to do so. Their only goal is to recover their own territory and to defend it.

3. Ukraine must be allowed to be a sovereign nation, under nobody's yoke or control or influence, able to join whatever international organizations they choose to apply to and get admitted to. Anything else is a non-starter.

4. Russia can't be trusted to hold up their end of any bargain or deal. This is the real main sticking point that will prevent any sort of peace from being negotiated in the near future. Ukrainian leadership isn't stupid, they are not going to trust Russia again.

Your whole peace plan is a huge non-starter. It reads like a joke, tbh.

 

[saamohod]

For multiple reasons, Russia is a country that requires showing itself strong in order to maintain its own unity.

The mechanism which held the USSR together, basically ethnic Russians dominating other populations, still holds true within the Russian Federation.

Great point. Obvious to people like myself, but many genuine foreigners (especially Westerners) are unaware this most important fact.
It all boils down to how Russians perceive themselves as masters of the neighboring nations and how they start freaking out when they feel they're no longer feared.

 

[amadeus]

The figures are precisely what they are, yes - but to what end?

To the end that I could not find more recent figures on public support for the war—I think it would be reasonable to guess that people against a war would also look unfavorably on the government that is waging it.

 

[thetrooper]

Counter proposal:

* Russia withdraws to the post-Soviet breakup borders.
* Any residents of Ukraine that consider themselves Russian, and not Ukrainian, be relocated to Russia.
* Ukrainians kidnapped into Russia repatriated.
* Russia admits sole responsibility for the conflict.
* Putin turned over to the Hague for war crime trial.
* The net worth of all Russian Oligarchs liquidated to pay reparations to Ukraine.
* Russia surrenders all of its nuclear weapons to NATO.


Seems fair and balanced.

Seems to be straight up my alley.

Oh, and refurbish the UN. And WHO for good measure.

 

[Marla_Singer]

It's quite telling that this BS is coming from French and Ukrainian.

The stability of Russian state depends on the country being multicultural federation, unlike national states who are trying to ensure stability by keeping one dominating culture and language, like Ukraine and France are trying to do.

You seriously lack of perspective on your own country. That attempt to invade Ukraine would be pathetic if it wasn't that murderous. It makes no sense at all. You should better wonder why all of the 14 SSRs were so quick to free themselves from Moscow in 1991.

 

[red_elk]

You seriously lack of perspective on your own country.

You are right, of course. CFC experts can always explain me what Russia really is and what Russian people really perceive themselves as.
That's why I'm here, constantly learning for years.

 

[Marla_Singer]

You are right, of course. CFC experts can always explain me what Russia really is and what Russian people really perceive themselves as.
That's why I'm here, constantly learning for years.

What is the good about bringing back high intensity war in Europe? Do you seriously believe Russian speakers from Eastern Ukraine are happy that you bomb them every night?