The Welfare State

[SS-18 ICBM]

The thing I don't understand is that a modern worker creates more wealth and it is more productive then a worker decades ago. Therefore more tax revenue is made and so the welfare benefits for elderly people is met. To economists where am I going wrong?

People consume more too. Geriatric healthcare in particular is not cheap.

 

[Arakhor]

Europe generally gets these new treatments a few years later than America but they usually don't have to fund them. They draw our benefits without paying the bulk of the cost.

No one else does any medical research and just steals it wholesale from the plucky US scientists, clearly.

 

[Mathilda]

No one else does any medical research and just steals it wholesale from the plucky US scientists, clearly.

He must have missed this link El Mach posted earlier: http://www.scimagojr.com/compare.php?c1=US&c2=Western+Europe&c3=&c4=&area=2700&category=0&in=it

 

[Traitorfish]

Stuff like Robot arms and legs(which America is digger deeper into now) costs 1000x what regular treatments cost so it will drive costs up. But here's the thing, the rich in America are willing to pay for such cures. Europe generally gets these new treatments a few years later than America but they usually don't have to fund them. They draw our benefits without paying the bulk of the cost.

Actually, a lot of research and development in bionics ("robot arms and legs", jeez... ) is done outside of the US, as is true of most things. The first commercially available bionic hand, for example, was released several years ago by a Scottish company named Touch Bionics. The US does a lot, true, but you are a first world nation with a population of three hundred million, so it'd to be expected. If you appear to be pulling more than your weight, it's either because you overestimate everyone else's weight, or because you overestimate how much pulling your doing, if not both at once.

 

[Berzerker]

The free market isn't good or evil but is totally amoral.

The free market = lets work together, state control = do as I say or die... The free market is about as moral as any system could be, its based on cooperation while the state makes threats of violence, even death.

 

[Ajidica]

I would just like to point out that the UK's state control gives you an option to get private insurance. Not do as I say or die. Just pointing that out.

 

[Berzerker]

so they gave you an option. What if you dont want either state or private insurance? Do they give you the option to be left alone? If they do, the state aint controlling you.

 

[Ajidica]

As long as you live under a government they will always exercise some control over you. Accept it or go join an anarchist society.

 

[Quackers]

liberty or death

 

[Sveon]

The free market = lets work together, state control = do as I say or die... The free market is about as moral as any system could be, its based on cooperation while the state makes threats of violence, even death.

Except it isn't. The free market is based on competition because competition is superior in driving efficiency. At least to the point where some people for whatever reason is unable to compete.

The welfare systems primary task is to cushion the fall for those who fall through and funnel them back into a meaningful existence instead of letting them fall to poverty, crime or whatever they else would turn to. This curbs competition but the net effect on society is just as likely to be positive. However that is beside the point. The point is to show solidarity with your fellow man, or as you put it "work together", creepy huh? Can't put a price tag on that I'm afraid.

 

[storealex]

state control = do as I say or die...

Well if you must use those words, let me just point out that execution is illegal in EU, while not in US

 

[Traitorfish]

The free market = lets work together, state control = do as I say or die... The free market is about as moral as any system could be, its based on cooperation while the state makes threats of violence, even death.

The free market rewards back-stabbing, throat-slitting and face-stomping; in what sense is that "let's work together"? Granted, it encourages temporary alliances between overlords, but that doesn't exactly paint a rosy picture. Saruman and Sauron teamed up, to make an unnecessarily nerdy reference, and that never did anyone any good. Unless, of course, you're so naive as to expect corporate magnates to respect the little guy?
The imposed state, after all, is nothing more than whatever warlords happen to have drafted some laws in your local area. What is, on a fundamental level, the difference between a warlord in a uniform and a warlord in a business suit?

As long as you live under a government they will always exercise some control over you. Accept it or go join an anarchist society.

Only if you assume that government is necessarily imposed, which is to say, if you reject democracy. In a democratic society, the people control the government, and it is under them.

 

[Berzerker]

As long as you live under a government they will always exercise some control over you. Accept it or go join an anarchist society.

That dont change the fact govt is force and the free market aint. You said nothing of relevance there, and I'd object to the notion that its anarchy when the govt hasn't forced you into some health care system like Obama's trying here.

liberty or death

death is what it comes down to if you dont do as told

Except it isn't. The free market is based on competition because competition is superior in driving efficiency. At least to the point where some people for whatever reason is unable to compete.

The welfare systems primary task is to cushion the fall for those who fall through and funnel them back into a meaningful existence instead of letting them fall to poverty, crime or whatever they else would turn to. This curbs competition but the net effect on society is just as likely to be positive. However that is beside the point. The point is to show solidarity with your fellow man, or as you put it "work together", creepy huh? Can't put a price tag on that I'm afraid.

Working together is voluntary, state mandates aint. Hence the "moral" difference between the free market and state control. I personally dont mind safety nets, I do mind the social engineering and corporate welfare. But none of that changes the true nature of government. And I'm suspicious as to the efficacy of certain safety nets, I think generational welfare can be linked to the large increases in out of wedlock birth rates.

Well if you must use those words, let me just point out that execution is illegal in EU, while not in US

Hehe, thats if you survive the arrest But continued resistance will see a significantly reduced lifespan.

 

[Ajidica]

Even if it is a peoples government, government by nescesity exerts some influence or control over the people.
Its a nescesity due to reality. Even if you had just one person ruling a country and all they did was tax you one penny so the ruler could eat; the government is still excercising some level of control over you. Taxation is always a form of control.

EDIT: I have to ask, where did you get your definition of free market? The free market works, according to Adam Smith, by the force of the 'invisible hand' where those who work the hardest get the benefits of their labor. WHere did 'lets all work together' come in to it? The free market works quite similarly to Nietzsches principle of the Will to Power. I want something so I will work to get it so I can reap the benefits. Free market would work due to our inborn greed or desire for self-betterment. The only times a society is 'lets all work together' is under Communism, or more accuratly, Utopian Socialism.

 

[Sveon]

Working together is voluntary, state mandates aint. Hence the "moral" difference between the free market and state control. I personally dont mind safety nets, I do mind the social engineering and corporate welfare. But none of that changes the true nature of government. And I'm suspicious as to the efficacy of certain safety nets, I think generational welfare can be linked to the large increases in out of wedlock birth rates.

I have some problems following your reasoning here especially at the end. Is the "moral" difference that you can pick and choose who is worthy of your help? By that reasoning would you be "morally" free from any obligations if you do not know anyone on welfare? How is that safety net you don't mind going to function without social engineering?

 

[otago]

As long as you live under a government they will always exercise some control over you. Accept it or go join an anarchist society.

I have no problem in giving Libertarians freedom from any government control, no tax etc etc etc.
But you use Nothing paid for by the taxpayers, no roads, no hosptals, no schools,no police.
You can sit on your property having all the freedom you want, because you will not leave it.
Oh, and no telephone or internet because the phone lines run down taxpayer paid road.

 

[Ajidica]

I agree.
What exactly separates extreme Libertarianism from anarchism anyhow? Once you already have next to no government doing anything it becomes an easy step to have no government. All forms of government exist by being able to impose their will on the people. Once the people are no longer being imposed upon by the government, the role of government becomes meaningless.

 

[Integral]

I agree.
What exactly separates extreme Libertarianism from anarchism anyhow?

Property rights.

 

[Berzerker]

Even if it is a peoples government, government by nescesity exerts some influence or control over the people.
Its a nescesity due to reality. Even if you had just one person ruling a country and all they did was tax you one penny so the ruler could eat; the government is still excercising some level of control over you. Taxation is always a form of control.

And its still force... The threat of violence, or even death. What is your point!?!?!

EDIT: I have to ask, where did you get your definition of free market?

I didn't offer one, I just said its based on cooperation and not force.

The free market works, according to Adam Smith, by the force of the 'invisible hand' where those who work the hardest get the benefits of their labor.

The invisible hand is not force, its the interaction between producers and consumers. People "vote" with their dollars and producers try to win those votes by satisfying consumers with better products.

WHere did 'lets all work together' come in to it?

See above... Or wiki supply and demand.

The free market works quite similarly to Nietzsches principle of the Will to Power. I want something so I will work to get it so I can reap the benefits. Free market would work due to our inborn greed or desire for self-betterment. The only times a society is 'lets all work together' is under Communism, or more accuratly, Utopian Socialism.

Communism doesn't ask people to help... Private business owners do, they even offer money for the help.

I have some problems following your reasoning here especially at the end. Is the "moral" difference that you can pick and choose who is worthy of your help? By that reasoning would you be "morally" free from any obligations if you do not know anyone on welfare? How is that safety net you don't mind going to function without social engineering?

Rephrase your ???, and the social engineering I'm talking about are, eg, progressive tax rates, sin taxes, subsidies to promote home ownership (housing bubble anyone?), various schemes politicians come up with to buy votes with other people's money.

 

[Arwon]

Libertarians are people who obsess over abstract, theoretical hypothetical repression (gunned down in the streets for tax resistance) whilst conspicuously ignoring or not obsessing over actual repressions that exist now.