shirleyrocks
Prince
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2001
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I'd probably be sleeping now.
The What If? Thread
- Thread starter King of England
- Start date
I'd probably be sleeping now.
what if no one wants to help me and I can't finish my essay on time, which will drop me mark from 92 to 62 percent? 
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9165
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9165
Hamlet
Manic Depressive
Then we could presume that events would still play themselves out: The February revolution would still take place, and the provisional government would take power. However, without any prominent opposition like the bolsheviks, the October revolution wouldn't happen. Note that the bolsheviks don't overthrow the Tsar, which is the result of a popular uprising, they overthrow the provisional government which replaced the Tsar.
There would, subsequently have probably been no peace with Germany, and Russia would have been beaten way further back, with the germans probably caputring St. Petersburg / and or Moscow. However, the fact that the Eastern front would still be operative would mean that The allies in the west may have been able to win the war faster, and Russia would have been given control back of the captured areas, as happens in our timeline.
After that, who knows? The provisional government may have gone on, and established a democracy in Russia, or the provisional government may have been overthrown by whites and the Tsar replaced. The provisional government may invite the Tsar or one ofhis relatives back to take palce in a constitutional monarchy, we don't know.
However, in WW2, Russia would have most likely have gotten much more support from The Allies, heck it would have been formally part of the alliance, which would have meant it would have gotten much more support, most likely. Also, all those military commanders that Stalin executed would have most likely still been there, and the fact that Russia had it's army practically wiped out in WW1 would mean that it would msot likely have had a well structured, modern army built from scratch after WW1. it would, in my opinion have done better than it would have under Stalin.
However, all of the above is merely supposing that Some fascist leader doesn't emerge during the WW1 - WW2 to take over a politically unstable Russia, which considering the fact that the whites were often very right wing little dictators, is a distinct possiblity.
In which case we would have all been fecked in WW2. A Russian/Japanese/German/Italian Axis alliance would have gone through us all like a hot knife through butter.
In which case, be thankful for Mr Lenin.
The Balrog
***Not Perm Banned***
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- 713
What if.... YOu(King of England) hadnt been born?? Then we wouldnt have this thread YIPIIIIII
PinkyGen
Paper copying intern
Ahh, but what's interesting about Russia in WWI vs WWII is that under the communist system, the Russians were far more prepared to fight the Germans in WWII!
Explanation: During WWI, Russian industry was small, but very concentrated in areas such as Lenningrad in the Ukraine. However, the cities were vary small compared to the countryside.
Stalin's 5 year plans in the 1930's were rapid industrialization. There are two important things about this.
1. The growth of the new heavy industry was truly incredible. It was more than doubled. At the end of the 1930's, the Soviet Union was matching the US in production of heavy metals such as Pig Iron.
2. The location of the new industries: Magnitorsk (a Soviet Gary Indiana) and new towns were built East of the Urals, far away from the border. It was these industries that outproduced the Germans and saved the Soviet Union in WWII.
Had the Tsar's or the successor to the Provincional government been in charge, this industrialization would have been very much slowed down. (Stalin used some very immoral methods to create this industry)
I think the Provisional Government would have still fallen without Lenin. The PG continued the war and told the workers not to strike. This upset people and created a gulf in power that the Bolsheviks were only too happy to fill.
Explanation: During WWI, Russian industry was small, but very concentrated in areas such as Lenningrad in the Ukraine. However, the cities were vary small compared to the countryside.
Stalin's 5 year plans in the 1930's were rapid industrialization. There are two important things about this.
1. The growth of the new heavy industry was truly incredible. It was more than doubled. At the end of the 1930's, the Soviet Union was matching the US in production of heavy metals such as Pig Iron.
2. The location of the new industries: Magnitorsk (a Soviet Gary Indiana) and new towns were built East of the Urals, far away from the border. It was these industries that outproduced the Germans and saved the Soviet Union in WWII.
Had the Tsar's or the successor to the Provincional government been in charge, this industrialization would have been very much slowed down. (Stalin used some very immoral methods to create this industry)
I think the Provisional Government would have still fallen without Lenin. The PG continued the war and told the workers not to strike. This upset people and created a gulf in power that the Bolsheviks were only too happy to fill.
Last I heard, Leningrad (now known as St Petersburg) is on the Baltic coast.
Hamlet
Manic Depressive
Originally posted by PinkyGen
Ahh, but what's interesting about Russia in WWI vs WWII is that under the communist system, the Russians were far more prepared to fight the Germans in WWII!
Well, yes, but if there wasn't any sort of communist system, then Russia would have most likely have been a formal part of the alliance, which would have meant that it wouldn't have had to rely on it's own army and industry to help it fight the war. You could have even had Americans on the Eastern front, who knows.
Well, that depends. If a genuinely stable government had been created, outside investment would have come in, and would have been going into Russia for around 15, perhaps even 20 years or so before WW2. Hence, there would have been no real need for forced industrialisation, outside investment would have created the same effect. Probably a better end result, too.
I must make one thing clear here: The bolsheviks, before Lenin returned to Petrograd, had no intetntion of overthrowing the provisional government. Indeed, this is one of the reasons why Lenin felt so desperate to return, and "correct" the situation. Quite on the contrary of being opposed to the PG, the bolsheviks were recognising the PG as the soverign bod in Russia, and being conicliatory towards it. The bolsheviks had joined in with The Mensheviks and SR's in the petrograd soviet, which basically, although it had essenitally set up a "dual power" system, had no intention of overthrowing the PG, which it recognised and was essentially working with. The bolsheviks had a pathetic minority on The Soviet, and until lenin turned things around were in no position, and had no desire to overthrow the PG.
Most likely, the Soviet and The PG would have at some point merged to create a parliament.
joespaniel
Unescorted Settler
What if Guderian ignored Hitler's orders to wheel south at Smolensk toward Kiev, and instead attacked Moscow all-out and captured the capitol?
Guderian ignored Hitler and the Army Staff in France, May 1940, by conducting a "recon by force" to the French coast, after being ordered to halt. Thus completing the encirclement of the Allied Armies, and forcing the retreat to Dunkirk. Hitler ignored the fact that he had been ignored, and took credit instead!
FYI - Manstein planned "yellow", not Hitler, as it was executed.
Guderian flew to Berlin in September 1941 to urge Hitler to reconsider the delay in attacking Moscow, only to be shot down. He then returned to his units, begrudgingly attacking south.
But what if Guderian cut his communications lines with Berlin and drove head-on to Moscow? Even the Soviets admit if they had at that time it would have been all over.
By the time the General Staff could have gotten someone to Russia to arrest Guderian, he could have been standing in the Kremlin. Then Hitler would have had to "praise the German Army for carrying out his plan", and the whole thing would have been swept under the rug. Again.
And Russia would be no more. At least not like it is/was.
I love what if threads!
Guderian ignored Hitler and the Army Staff in France, May 1940, by conducting a "recon by force" to the French coast, after being ordered to halt. Thus completing the encirclement of the Allied Armies, and forcing the retreat to Dunkirk. Hitler ignored the fact that he had been ignored, and took credit instead!
FYI - Manstein planned "yellow", not Hitler, as it was executed.
Guderian flew to Berlin in September 1941 to urge Hitler to reconsider the delay in attacking Moscow, only to be shot down. He then returned to his units, begrudgingly attacking south.
But what if Guderian cut his communications lines with Berlin and drove head-on to Moscow? Even the Soviets admit if they had at that time it would have been all over.
By the time the General Staff could have gotten someone to Russia to arrest Guderian, he could have been standing in the Kremlin. Then Hitler would have had to "praise the German Army for carrying out his plan", and the whole thing would have been swept under the rug. Again.
And Russia would be no more. At least not like it is/was.
I love what if threads!
"Guderian ignored Hitler and the Army Staff in France, May 1940, by conducting a "recon by force" to the French coast, after being ordered to halt. Thus completing the encirclement of the Allied Armies, and forcing the retreat to Dunkirk. Hitler ignored the fact that he had been ignored, and took credit instead!"
Guderian ignored the orders fr OKW to halt, not direct orders fr Hitler I think. In fact, I think his immediate CO gave him permission to 'recon in force', ignoring the spirit of the orders fr OKW.
"FYI - Manstein planned "yellow", not Hitler, as it was executed."
Yeah and it was ignored by OKW. It was thru chance (thru his adjutant I think) that Hitler came to hear of it, liked it and pushed it to execution. Otherwise, that would just be all it was - a plan.
"But what if Guderian cut his communications lines with Berlin and drove head-on to Moscow? Even the Soviets admit if they had at that time it would have been all over.
By the time the General Staff could have gotten someone to Russia to arrest Guderian, he could have been standing in the Kremlin. Then Hitler would have had to "praise the German Army for carrying out his plan", and the whole thing would have been swept under the rug. Again.
And Russia would be no more. At least not like it is/was."
Highly subjective. The fall of Moscow might have finished the Soviets. Or it might not, cos they still had the other fronts, resources, war materiel etc. Esp east of the Urals. The Germans didn't have these luxuries; that's why Hitler wanted to drive for the Caucasus, purportedly for the oil. I think so long as Stalin's around, the Soviets would hold on.
Anyway, as the final point, the entire Wehrmacht as it was in WW2, would not have been possible w/o Hitler; it would have remained limited to infantry and 100000 strong with only 2000 officers or so.
Guderian ignored the orders fr OKW to halt, not direct orders fr Hitler I think. In fact, I think his immediate CO gave him permission to 'recon in force', ignoring the spirit of the orders fr OKW.
"FYI - Manstein planned "yellow", not Hitler, as it was executed."
Yeah and it was ignored by OKW. It was thru chance (thru his adjutant I think) that Hitler came to hear of it, liked it and pushed it to execution. Otherwise, that would just be all it was - a plan.
"But what if Guderian cut his communications lines with Berlin and drove head-on to Moscow? Even the Soviets admit if they had at that time it would have been all over.
By the time the General Staff could have gotten someone to Russia to arrest Guderian, he could have been standing in the Kremlin. Then Hitler would have had to "praise the German Army for carrying out his plan", and the whole thing would have been swept under the rug. Again.
And Russia would be no more. At least not like it is/was."
Highly subjective. The fall of Moscow might have finished the Soviets. Or it might not, cos they still had the other fronts, resources, war materiel etc. Esp east of the Urals. The Germans didn't have these luxuries; that's why Hitler wanted to drive for the Caucasus, purportedly for the oil. I think so long as Stalin's around, the Soviets would hold on.
Anyway, as the final point, the entire Wehrmacht as it was in WW2, would not have been possible w/o Hitler; it would have remained limited to infantry and 100000 strong with only 2000 officers or so.
Crazy Eddie
Genial drunkard
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2001
- Messages
- 880
Don't forget von Seeckt's role in the organisaton if the Wehrmacht - it was his decisions that led to the army being capable of massive growth without serious loss of efficiancy, and of a highly mobile nature.
Also interesting is the agreement between Germany and the SSSR in the 20's of shared military research.
Also interesting is the agreement between Germany and the SSSR in the 20's of shared military research.
That's true. The Germans experimented with tank and aircraft designs secretly within the vastness of the Red Empire. I wonder if Hitler knew it was Germans who taught the Soviets how to build great tanks?
The whole exercise of building up the Wehrmacht fr nothing to a powerful military force also enabled an officer corps that's much younger and took much more initiative in the field. A lot of the prowess of the German military was due to the on-the-spot action taken by these junior officers.
Kahran Ramsus
Warlord
What if the Spanish Armada hadn't run into bad weather on the way to England?
What if Harold Godwineson decided to wait a few days before sending his exhausted men to Pevensey to fight William the Bastard?
What if John Cabot wasn't lost at sea and England colonized Canada instead of the French?
What if Thomas Jackson's troops recognized him and didn't fire at Chancellorsville?
What if Gordon Meade never replaced Joe Hooker and the Union lost Gettysburg?
What if Constantine never converted to Christianity?
What if Napoleon decided it was not a good idea to invade Russia?
What if King Hardicanute of England didn't die at such a young age?
What if the Pope allowed King Stephen to name Eustace as his heir instead of Henry Platagenat?
What if Arthur had succeeded in driving the Anglo-Saxons out of England?
What if Harold Godwineson decided to wait a few days before sending his exhausted men to Pevensey to fight William the Bastard?
What if John Cabot wasn't lost at sea and England colonized Canada instead of the French?
What if Thomas Jackson's troops recognized him and didn't fire at Chancellorsville?
What if Gordon Meade never replaced Joe Hooker and the Union lost Gettysburg?
What if Constantine never converted to Christianity?
What if Napoleon decided it was not a good idea to invade Russia?
What if King Hardicanute of England didn't die at such a young age?
What if the Pope allowed King Stephen to name Eustace as his heir instead of Henry Platagenat?
What if Arthur had succeeded in driving the Anglo-Saxons out of England?
Le Petit Prince
Communist Comrade
by joespaniel
i would probably had +90% in my exam this last 3 years instead of 70%
What if the french had won the battle of abraham...all North America would have been french...
except the 12 colonies but we would have conquered them by now...
What if Napoleon decided it was not a good idea to invade Russia?
never I would have thought that cause he wanted to do a complete naval blocus on England
i would probably had +90% in my exam this last 3 years instead of 70%What if the french had won the battle of abraham...all North America would have been french...
except the 12 colonies but we would have conquered them by now...
What if Napoleon decided it was not a good idea to invade Russia?
never I would have thought that cause he wanted to do a complete naval blocus on England
Crazy Eddie
Genial drunkard
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2001
- Messages
- 880
Oops, I meant the Reichsweir of course.
Fayadi
Technocrat
What if during the 1962 Cuban Missile Incident (involving NUCLEARS) ,the two leader Kennedy and Kruschev were hostile to each other???
What if USSR still survived and never dissolve?(the world will be more exciting)
What if USSR leader at 1980's was not Gorbachev(WEAK LEADER TOO LENIENT!) and the leader was strong like Nikita Kruschev?
What if Japanese never surrender after being bombed by atomic the 2nd time?
What if Roosevelt never become US president?
What if USSR still survived and never dissolve?(the world will be more exciting)
What if USSR leader at 1980's was not Gorbachev(WEAK LEADER TOO LENIENT!) and the leader was strong like Nikita Kruschev?
What if Japanese never surrender after being bombed by atomic the 2nd time?
What if Roosevelt never become US president?
TrailblazingScot
I was kittenOFchaos
If it hadn't been for civ I might have had a chance at running the country instead of DREAMING about it.
What if Chamberlein had gone to war over the Sudentenland...
What if Chamberlein had gone to war over the Sudentenland...
King of England
Tired Young Man
Well, we all have a good estimate of what would have happened there. With the Confederate troops threatening Washington D.C itself, the U.S. might have given up. If this were to be the case, then there would be two nations, possibly three if California became independent (
or 
?). Who knows, with the U.S severely weakined, some European nations might once again have turned their eyes to Latin America. Of course, if the U. S. didn't give up, then there might have stlll been a chance to repel the invasion at another point. Doubt the Confederates could have gotten Washington, though. If anyone knows more about this, feel free to add on and clarify.Now,
Never remember nothing from the Cold War, so....
about questions 1, 2, 3, I can say: "Hmmm..."
Frankly, I don't like the idea of someone being as powerful as me and more aggressive... "Duck and cover!!"
On the other hand, the Soviets were a bit less fanatical when it came to negotiations.
Cuz we all knew: "If I go down, I'm taking you with me"
If the Japanese didn't surrender in WWII after 2nd A-bomb, there would definately have been more dying on both sides. An invasion of Japan would have been very costly for the Allies.
Don't know about #5 though.
I don't know enough about the history behind most other What If questions posted so I can't make any guesses, hell I don't know much about what I'm writing here.
I love what if threads!
It's nice to hear that. See, thinking is fun!! :grad:
Sixchan
Emperor
What if France and Britain had been allied with Germany around the time of WWII, and the Japanes hadn't attacked Pearl Harbour?
Would the US have got involved?
If they did, whose side would they be on?
Would the Fascists then win WWII?
Would the US have got involved?
If they did, whose side would they be on?
Would the Fascists then win WWII?
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
What if there had been a pro-democracy revolution in Russia at the end of World War 2? And thus, no cold war? Would nukes have proliferated? Would America have turned towards socialism? Would the third world have been developed in a more principled, ethical manner? Would we be driving on superhighways to fast food restaurants?
joespaniel
Unescorted Settler
Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
"Guderian ignored Hitler and the Army Staff in France, May 1940, by conducting a "recon by force" to the French coast, after being ordered to halt. Thus completing the encirclement of the Allied Armies, and forcing the retreat to Dunkirk. Hitler ignored the fact that he had been ignored, and took credit instead!"
Guderian ignored the orders fr OKW to halt, not direct orders fr Hitler I think. In fact, I think his immediate CO gave him permission to 'recon in force', ignoring the spirit of the orders fr OKW.
Wrong. Hitler himself ordered it. He believed the French were massing to the south of the breakthrough, about to flank him.
"FYI - Manstein planned "yellow", not Hitler, as it was executed."
Yeah and it was ignored by OKW. It was thru chance (thru his adjutant I think) that Hitler came to hear of it, liked it and pushed it to execution. Otherwise, that would just be all it was - a plan.
Manstein had dinner with Hitler in Febuary 1940 and presented his plan. Hitler loved complicated things, and soon started tinkering with the Manstein Plan. Later claiming he thought of it.
"But what if Guderian cut his communications lines with Berlin and drove head-on to Moscow? Even the Soviets admit if they had at that time it would have been all over.
By the time the General Staff could have gotten someone to Russia to arrest Guderian, he could have been standing in the Kremlin. Then Hitler would have had to "praise the German Army for carrying out his plan", and the whole thing would have been swept under the rug. Again.
And Russia would be no more. At least not like it is/was."
Highly subjective. The fall of Moscow might have finished the Soviets. Or it might not, cos they still had the other fronts, resources, war materiel etc. Esp east of the Urals. The Germans didn't have these luxuries; that's why Hitler wanted to drive for the Caucasus, purportedly for the oil. I think so long as Stalin's around, the Soviets would hold on.
The drive into the caucasus wasnt until the next year, and was mainly due to Hitler getting his @$$ kicked at Moscow in December 1941. He wasnt up to trying again.
Taking Moscow in 1941 early enough in the season may well have collapsed the Soviet armies. ALL rail supply went through Moscow. The other fronts would have been cut off.
Losing the political head and heart of the USSR, Moscow, would have been a disaster for Russia. Even the Soviets thought so.
Anyway, as the final point, the entire Wehrmacht as it was in WW2, would not have been possible w/o Hitler; it would have remained limited to infantry and 100000 strong with only 2000 officers or so.
There was a rediculously high number of officers and NCOs in the German Army in those years. The clever Germans figured they could conscript a million men quickly and have leadership in place already. Sneaky Krauts.
"Guderian ignored Hitler and the Army Staff in France, May 1940, by conducting a "recon by force" to the French coast, after being ordered to halt. Thus completing the encirclement of the Allied Armies, and forcing the retreat to Dunkirk. Hitler ignored the fact that he had been ignored, and took credit instead!"
Guderian ignored the orders fr OKW to halt, not direct orders fr Hitler I think. In fact, I think his immediate CO gave him permission to 'recon in force', ignoring the spirit of the orders fr OKW.
Wrong. Hitler himself ordered it. He believed the French were massing to the south of the breakthrough, about to flank him.
"FYI - Manstein planned "yellow", not Hitler, as it was executed."
Yeah and it was ignored by OKW. It was thru chance (thru his adjutant I think) that Hitler came to hear of it, liked it and pushed it to execution. Otherwise, that would just be all it was - a plan.
Manstein had dinner with Hitler in Febuary 1940 and presented his plan. Hitler loved complicated things, and soon started tinkering with the Manstein Plan. Later claiming he thought of it.
"But what if Guderian cut his communications lines with Berlin and drove head-on to Moscow? Even the Soviets admit if they had at that time it would have been all over.
By the time the General Staff could have gotten someone to Russia to arrest Guderian, he could have been standing in the Kremlin. Then Hitler would have had to "praise the German Army for carrying out his plan", and the whole thing would have been swept under the rug. Again.
And Russia would be no more. At least not like it is/was."
Highly subjective. The fall of Moscow might have finished the Soviets. Or it might not, cos they still had the other fronts, resources, war materiel etc. Esp east of the Urals. The Germans didn't have these luxuries; that's why Hitler wanted to drive for the Caucasus, purportedly for the oil. I think so long as Stalin's around, the Soviets would hold on.
The drive into the caucasus wasnt until the next year, and was mainly due to Hitler getting his @$$ kicked at Moscow in December 1941. He wasnt up to trying again.
Taking Moscow in 1941 early enough in the season may well have collapsed the Soviet armies. ALL rail supply went through Moscow. The other fronts would have been cut off.
Losing the political head and heart of the USSR, Moscow, would have been a disaster for Russia. Even the Soviets thought so.
Anyway, as the final point, the entire Wehrmacht as it was in WW2, would not have been possible w/o Hitler; it would have remained limited to infantry and 100000 strong with only 2000 officers or so.
There was a rediculously high number of officers and NCOs in the German Army in those years. The clever Germans figured they could conscript a million men quickly and have leadership in place already. Sneaky Krauts.
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