The Wheel of Time - C3C FULL mod

[CamJH]

I remembered a discussion I had earlier with Alerum about uniting the Borderland nations into a single civlization, so I've altered the unit list to reflect that change.

Some of the reasons that I recall:
- provides a strong defense along the blight (so they don't get wiped out one by one at the start of the game)
- the city borders are already right up against each other in the map
- another way of preventing the borderland nations from fighting with one another (other than locked alliances) since they are always too busy defending against the blight to ever war with one another
- the terrain is a bit more harsh in the borderlands, so this will help them to survive/prosper
- reflects the alliance that has now taken place in the novels
- and other reasons that I can't remember right now

 

[Saturn6]

Do any of you think that we could have it so that there are locked alliances, but that the civs in the alliances fight against each other?

Might need programming.

 

[alerum68]

In a Conquest scenerio, I think it was the 1800's one, I was in a locked alliance with a civ, and they declared war on me... I tried to attack them, and it said we couldn't because of the lock allience.

There is no way to get around this as it's hard coded. The best I can do is set up flavor and attitudes between civs... I don't see any locked alliences anywhere in the game... the books change so much in that regard I don't think it'll matter.

 

[CamJH]

we could use the locked alliance screen to set up always-at-war scenarios between individual civs (i.e.: regular aiel -vs- shaido aiel), but it's tough to imagine permanently linking multiple civs this way, because like alerum said it changes all the time.

the only possibilities i could imagine with multiple civs locked together would maybe be: (1) andor and the regular aiel since most of them have sworn oaths to rand or perrin [and since the two rivers is part of andor... on the map]; or (2) linking all the nations that are currently under the banner of the dragon reborn up to this point in the novels. but to be honest, i'm not sure that i'd want these pre-established before the game began. rand didn't start out with alliances, but had to earn them and maintain them... which i think argues for no locked alliances.

any thoughts?

 

[alerum68]

Nope, I aggree with your thinking on that. Let the player determine that factor.

 

[tjedge1]

Locked Alliances would be too much hassle. I think without them it will create more variety for gameplay. Also uniteing the borderlands it not such a bad idea. Or at least combining Shienar and Arafel into one and have Kandor and Saldaea another, to have 2 borderland civs. If it is set that they favor the government type that the other borderland has then they will be much less likely to go to war with eachother. The flavor thing doesn't help to control the attitudes of civs with eachother. It only really works with the tech costs.

 

[Saturn6]

Yeah well, I hoped that maybe we could have the Light at a locked war with the Blight and stuff, but they would be able to fight each other like in the books, but since we can't do that....Yep, I would agree with you. No locked alliances.

 

[CamJH]

Question:
What type of units do you envision for the Sea Folk?

Obviously I think they should have special ships for their UU's, but they'll also have to have some kind of foot units. Amazon type units? I was going over the list, and that blank just started gnawing on me a bit. So let me know what you guys think.

 

[alerum68]

hummm... that's a good question... wonder if there is anyway we can play the mode of dress off between sea based, and near-land units. One problem though... the only time Seafolk would step foot on land, unless the Carmoor (Is that spelled right?) commands it... I can't see them being much of a land based army... maybe we should limit the units they have... 1 defender unit, and only 1 attacking unit, something like the 'zerks amphious assult. Also, a question about units... The more we talk, the more I want to snag some vanilla civ3 units from the game.... Pikeman in the Wetlands is the one major unit...

Also, we should maybe talk about if we're going to have just a few units per a civ, and upgrade them like in the Japan Conquest... if we do that, we will need to have some "filler" units... each culuture group will carry several units of their own... no point in having Aiel with swordman. :boggle: Either that, or else we're going to have to create alot more units per a civ.

Tech is going to be difficult... think we should borrow from the DyP and doing techs based on "being" something?

 

[tjedge1]

We could do like they did in Lord of the Mods to determine what Techs they would need. As they listed the units for the game and concepts, improvements, wonders, resources, and so on, they attached it to a tech that they made to go with it or to another exsisting tech. One person kept up with the list of techs and kept it organized and would post updates to the list. Worked really well so when it came time to actually put the tree together they know what they have. The DyP idea is good enough for me, I'm sort of using it for my mod.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I think Amazon units might be a good idea for the Sea Folk since their women seem to be in charge. Now we just need a female mage.

 

[CamJH]

Rank among the women of the Atha'an Miere:
Wavemistress
Sailmistress
Windfiner

Rank among the men of the Atha'an Miere:
Swordmaster
Cargomaster

This is to help decide on what to name the foot units used for the Sea Folk. The Wavemistress and Swordmaster function basically as queen/king, so I don't know if we'd want to use their titles (excellent as they are) for the units. And as far as defense goes aboard each ship, the cargomaster calls the shots.

"Defense, as well as all trade, is managed by the Cargomaster. Often married to the Sailmistress, his is the first and final word in all trade negotiations and matters of defense. He cannot tell the Sailmistress where to sail, and she cannot tell him what goods to trade for. Needless to say, however, the ship's ultimate profitability, indeed its survival, depends upon the Sailmistress and the Cargomaster working smoothly together."

So what are you votes for the foot unit title for the Atha'an Miere? Just one... all of them?

 

[CamJH]

Now for the ships:

"The Atha'an Miere ships fall into four general classes. From smallest to largest they are the darter, soarer, skimmer, and raker. Anything smaller than a darter is considered a boat, not a ship. The fastest class of ship is the raker. Lean, long, and incredibly swift over the water, rakers always carry three masts and are square-rigged. The skimmer is also three-masted and is as long as a raker, but it is broader in the beam and of a greater displacement, which makes it slower than a raker, though still usually much faster than any mainland ship of comparable displacement. The soarer, a two-masted vessel, while smaller than a skimmer, is faster and usually quite agile. The smallest of the Sea Folk vessels, the darter, can have one or two masts."

Use all of them? One? Two? Three?

Also, are there ships already in existance that could match up? I know there are tons of ships in the Units forum, so have you come across any that you would like to nominate. For a while aaglo was cranking them out daily it seemed (many of them fantasy based), or maybe you know of something else. Let me know, I open to suggestions.

 

[CamJH]

Also, I did come across a Amazon Avatar that Blue O created. Possible start for a windfinder, since the unit has a magical attack, but... she's basically naked except for futuristic body armor from the looks of it. Thoughts?

EDIT: and yes, the preview is a little messed up

 

[CamJH]

something like the 'zerks amphious assult

I thought you'd say that. You love them 'zerks.
I agree by the way.

 

[alerum68]

The question about boats and ships... we should probably have 2 in 1 age, and 2 in another. Maybe have Darters and Soarers as the Galleys and Frigates first, then upgrade them to skimmer and raker.... I'm guessing the Book didn't have any photos of it in there, but from the descriptions we're looking at sleek back ships like Galleons.

The unit needs a long skirt that's very sheer and "bead-like" (in my mind at least). The top should be exposed I guess... or should we assume if they're units moving around they'll met others and have to be clothed? How are we going to handle this one?

And Yes, I love the zerks. Most powerful UU in the game, based on it's time. NOthing compares. Try playing a Sid game, with Viks on an 'plego map and you'll win. No question about it.

 

[CamJH]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Tarabon the nation where its people sport the cylindrical caps? If so, that should give us some idea of what to look for for their units. I know I've seen dozens of Asian flavor units wearing that style of hat. Guess this means I'm off to hunt through the library again. Unless of course anyone can save me the trip.

 

[tjedge1]

I forgot about Bue O's avatar. That is a good unit. In fact I forgot it was in my Mystara mod. That could be the Windfinder unit. Using zons is fine with me for the Sea Folk since they didn't where tops usually anyway. I would use all the ships and have them upgrade to each other. I would not know what to use for the unit names. Those are titles for those in charge so it doesn't really apply to the type of unit. Maybe just call them sailors and give them a basic unit that is defensive and offensive. More focus on thier navy then and less on the army. I don't see why they couldn't have some male units to do the fighting.

 

[CamJH]

Should the ships upgrade to each other though? It's not as if once they learned how to make rakers they all of a sudden quit making darters. It's definitely a possibility, and one that I've considered too. But another one that I was contemplating was making the smaller ships faster (each one gains another move per turn the smaller the ship), and then the opposite as far as transport ability (as the ships get larger they can carry one or two more than the previous ship size). Then lowering the cost for the smaller ships in the fleet. Defense/Attack can be adjusted as well. I think they should all be incorporated into different techs all the same, but not necessarily making the others obsolete. Worth considering, or am I just losing it?

 

[CamJH]

BTW, did you have an luck TJ in your search for exotics?

 

[Noldodan]

"The Atha'an Miere ships fall into four general classes. From smallest to largest they are the darter, soarer, skimmer, and raker. Anything smaller than a darter is considered a boat, not a ship. The fastest class of ship is the raker. Lean, long, and incredibly swift over the water, rakers always carry three masts and are square-rigged. The skimmer is also three-masted and is as long as a raker, but it is broader in the beam and of a greater displacement, which makes it slower than a raker, though still usually much faster than any mainland ship of comparable displacement. The soarer, a two-masted vessel, while smaller than a skimmer, is faster and usually quite agile. The smallest of the Sea Folk vessels, the darter, can have one or two masts."

By this quote, the rakers (biggest ships) are the fastest, while the darters are teh most maneuverable. So while size goes up, speed also goes up, and maneuverability goes down.