The Wonder Thread.

[chaosprophet]

I mean Ed Beach said "airport district" in the German stream/interview, so I'm inclined to think that the entire tile has airport buildings. That doesn't necessarily mean that those buildings can't provide bonuses to tourism though. I expect the airport district will make you choose between a tourism focus or a military focus (much like how the encampment makes you choose between Barracks and Stables).

International Terminal vs Aircraft Shelters, kind of a thing.

You may be right. But the name doesn't says much. After all there is an Aqueduct district, but it's unlikely to just be an Aqueduct and related buildings (?) but as some are guessing a food related district that later gets buildings like the hospital.

 

[bookman_]

Just realized that since Wonders are not pillageable until you can nuke them, they will make a grest way to create artificial chokepoints on the map to defend your cities.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Just realized that since Wonders are not pillageable until you can nuke them, they will make a grest way to create artificial chokepoints on the map to defend your cities.

I you sure they aren't pillageable? Also, they are still passable, so I don't see how you're going to make chokepoints from them.

 

[Plus Ultra]

They're pushing city specialization, and that's one way to do it.

Agreed, but I wonder if they are pushing too far.

I suddenly feel like I need to make a plan for my empire on a excel sheet and print it before playing the game, rather than adapt to what the map gives us, which is their goal.

For example, if I want to build a strong navy, the Venetian arsenal seems like a must. To create the venetian arsenal, I need a free tile near the coast, which needs to be attached to an industrial district. Now, the industrial district has a bonus for being attached to (for example) woodlands, so I need that too. Since I'm already using a tile for the industrial district, I might as well consider that my production-focused city, and build there all the building that increase production. Those buildings have bonuses for certain strategic resources, so I need to make sure at least some of them are near too... etc.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the new system, not sure what I think about it yet.

 

[qwerty25]

Doesn't the Venetian Arsenal seem a bit OP? I mean seriously a second naval unit for every naval unit trained? unless I'm reading it wrong.

 

[Felis Renidens]

Plus Ultra - I think you both adapt to what you find and search for good spots for specialized cities. If you start in the middle of a landmass you won't plan for a strong navy. You'll use what you have. You'll also want to spread to different kinds of terrain.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Agreed, but I wonder if they are pushing too far.

I suddenly feel like I need to make a plan for my empire on a excel sheet and print it before playing the game, rather than adapt to what the map gives us, which is their goal.

For example, if I want to build a strong navy, the Venetian arsenal seems like a must. To create the venetian arsenal, I need a free tile near the coast, which needs to be attached to an industrial district. Now, the industrial district has a bonus for being attached to (for example) woodlands, so I need that too. Since I'm already using a tile for the industrial district, I might as well consider that my production-focused city, and build there all the building that increase production. Those buildings have bonuses for certain strategic resources, so I need to make sure at least some of them are near too... etc.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the new system, not sure what I think about it yet.

The only hard requirement for Venetial Arsenal is an industrial district near shore. You're going to have a shore city with industrial district anyway if you plan to have strong navy. So, this one don't look like an issue.

Overall looking at the requirements, I have a feeling what on standard+ map sizes, nearly always there will be at least 2-3 civs racing for each wonder, so it's interesting. Less race, but still race.

For religious gameplay, Stonehendge is very desirable, but its requirements look to be quite common and in the worst case you could still target Oracle.

 

[bookman_]

I you sure they aren't pillageable? Also, they are still passable, so I don't see how you're going to make chokepoints from them.

Sure that you can pass them ? I just supposed there was no was to go on their tiles since they take so much place, unit would just disappear into the building.

And yeah, Ed said that there was no was to pillage -or was it destroy ? I have a doubt now- in one of the E3 streams until you a nuke to do the job.
Edit : yep two other guys heard the same thing about pillaging.

 

[Ikael]

Woooo, dettails, dettails everywhere! Let's see what these wonders means for gameplay and strategies...

Colossus: It worries me how it doesn't increase sea tile yields. The game could really use some sea boosting wonders / policies, me thinks

Colosseum: I don't think that it should be considered a wonder, more like a Roman UB, but whatever, its effects are OK, albeit a bit unoriginal

Eiffel Tower: We know too little about the appeal mechanic in orderto make any kind of judgement, but this is either going to be massively underpowered (due to the limited appeal scale) or vastly overpowered (due to its civilization-wide effects). I am not convinced of it, the Eiffel tower must give a massive tourism bonus towards... its city itself. Still, let's wait and see for more info

Great Library: Really liked this one. A wonder whose effects are more powerful the earlier is built. Beelinning for wonders rather than tech, quite a reversal!

Hagia Sophia: Seems like the Hagia Sophia of old. Still, no engineering bonus?

Hanging Gardens: It looks powerful on paper, but considering that the main limiting factor for city size is housing now instead of growth, this wonder might end up be rather underwhelming

Mahabodhi Temple: We don't know yet how apostles work, but all points out to this wonder seems to fit an "expanionist religion" type of strategy

Mont St. Michel: The most interesting thing is is how there are now "great works of religion" (relics) rather than works of art.

The Oracle: A fixed bonus for great people of all stripes, a la old Stonhege giving a fixed culture bonus. Love it

Pyramids: From being a series staple, to be a highly situational wonder. It is quite dissapointing really

Stonehenge: If Great Prophets are unique now, I wonder which kind of GP will it give? Or will it be a random one?

Terracotta Army: Really cool and flavourful effects, I love how it gives both a short and a long term bonus. Still not totally sold on the "archeologists without borders" type of bonus, perhaps a more powerful / unique archeological site would suit it better?

Venetian Arsenal: Yet another wasted chance of make water tiles great again (tm). Still, I quite like how you can specialize your city into becoming a naval industry behemot.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Sure that you can pass them ? I just supposed there was no was to go on their tiles since they take so much place, unit would just disappear into the building.

And yeah, Ed said that there was no was to pillage -or was it destroy ? I have a doubt now- in one of the E3 streams until you a nuke to do the job.
Edit : yep two other guys heard the same thing about pillaging.

Yes, they are passable.

 

[Plus Ultra]

Plus Ultra - I think you both adapt to what you find and search for good spots for specialized cities. If you start in the middle of a landmass you won't plan for a strong navy. You'll use what you have. You'll also want to spread to different kinds of terrain.

I get that, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the new system. I'll limit my rambling to wonders, since that is the goal of this thread. I'm perfectly aware we don't know how the new systems work, and the numbers and prequisites could be changed, please bear with me.

I see myself losing control over the techs, buildings, districts and wonders I wan't to build becouse of the new system. Again, I'm not sure that is necessarily bad.
In the case of techs and districts, we just lose bonuses for not using the terrain, which is... good I guess?. But, in the case of wonders, there are restrictions in place that make building them impossible, and they seem fairly common.

With the current information, I'm starting to wonder whether the new system could end up reducing options for the player and creating an optimal path for specializing each location we settle in.

In other words, if rather than expanding withing an area close to my capital and imposing my "empire-design" on the terrain, with the new system my only choices are:

-Accept that the terrain close to me is going to dictate the wonders I can build (and therefore, at least partially, how I focus/design my empire).
-Search for optimal terrain for my strategy/design, which could be far, far away and require forward settling and wierd city placement.

Just ignore me If all this rambling sounds like nonsense to you, it probably is.

The only hard requirement for Venetial Arsenal is an industrial district near shore. You're going to have a shore city with industrial district anyway if you plan to have strong navy. So, this one don't look like an issue.

Look at the Mahabodhi Temple:
-Must be built on wood
-Adjacent to a holy site district
-Pre-built Temple in the holy site
-You must have found a religion

Now, let's imagine you are 100% focused on faith and wan't to build 3 out of 4 religious wonders in your holy city, and imagine the prequisites for each one look something like those...

Overall looking at the requirements, I have a feeling what on standard+ map sizes, nearly always there will be at least 2-3 civs racing for each wonder, so it's interesting. Less race, but still race.

I have no idea if 2-3 civs (out of 8, right?) is reasonable or not. But, 2/8 civs racing for a wonder means that you, as a player, might be out of the race for 3/4 of the wonders, and that sounds quite wierd, right?

 

[qwerty25]

Woooo, dettails, dettails everywhere! Let's see what these wonders means for gameplay and strategies...

Colossus: It worries me how it doesn't increase sea tile yields. The game could really use some sea boosting wonders / policies, me thinks

Colosseum: I don't think that it should be considered a wonder, more like a Roman UB, but whatever, its effects are OK, albeit a bit unoriginal

Eiffel Tower: We know too little about the appeal mechanic in orderto make any kind of judgement, but this is either going to be massively underpowered (due to the limited appeal scale) or vastly overpowered (due to its civilization-wide effects). I am not convinced of it, the Eiffel tower must give a massive tourism bonus towards... its city itself. Still, let's wait and see for more info

Im wondering what this apppeal is too, thoufh plus 1 shouldnt be that large i guess or else they wouldnt apply kt across the nation.

Great Library: Really liked this one. A wonder whose effects are more powerful the earlier is built. Beelinning for wonders rather than tech, quite a reversal!

Hagia Sophia: Seems like the Hagia Sophia of old. Still, no engineering bonus?

Great library change i concur with you.

Hagia sophia.
Seems a slight trend of more religious wonders?


Hanging Gardens: It looks powerful on paper, but considering that the main limiting factor for city size is housing now instead of growth, this wonder might end up be rather underwhelming

Mahabodhi Temple: We don't know yet how apostles work, but all points out to this wonder seems to fit an "expanionist religion" type of strategy

Mont St. Michel: The most interesting thing is is how there are now "great works of religion" (relics) rather than works of art.

The Oracle: A fixed bonus for great people of all stripes, a la old Stonhege giving a fixed culture bonus. Love it

Pyramids: From being a series staple, to be a highly situational wonder. It is quite dissapointing really

[/quote]

I wonder if it stacks with chinas already 4 builds allowing for now 5 builds per builder!

Stonehenge: If Great Prophets are unique now, I wonder which kind of GP will it give? Or will it be a random one?

Terracotta Army: Really cool and flavourful effects, I love how it gives both a short and a long term bonus. Still not totally sold on the "archeologists without borders" type of bonus, perhaps a more powerful / unique archeological site would suit it better?

Venetian Arsenal: Yet another wasted chance of make water tiles great again (tm). Still, I quite like how you can specialize your city into becoming a naval industry behemot.

Hehe the arsenal certainly helps with building a navy.



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[Gorbles]

Having to make serious choices between Wonders and Districts is a good thing, I feel. Actually having to compete for real-estate and map generation factors is far more of a nuanced and responsive situation than "stack Production and spam them when you can".

I can see why people are hesitant, though. It seems like they could be too restrictive. But some of them definitely have effects to match (that Venetian Arsenal - assuming you have the income to support whatever maintenance costs units have in Civ VI? Dayum).

 

[Felis Renidens]

City placement will be weird only if the system doesn't work, or if maps are not balanced well. I suppose you could not have all the wonders of the world (not without a giant empire and some conquests). You'll need to expand, snatch good locations for various kinds of cities. I suppose after some time people will have optimal paths or roadmaps, but there is nothing to do about it.

I guess my game will usually not be optimal because it bores me to do so, so I'll probably have lots of options.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Eiffel Tower: We know too little about the appeal mechanic in orderto make any kind of judgement, but this is either going to be massively underpowered (due to the limited appeal scale) or vastly overpowered (due to its civilization-wide effects). I am not convinced of it, the Eiffel tower must give a massive tourism bonus towards... its city itself. Still, let's wait and see for more info

Ed Beach mentioned awhile back that cities in the desert will have low appeal and won't grow very big. So I am thinking that appeal affects city growth. If true, the Eiffel Tower could be a great wonder for the wide empire since the more tiles you have in your empire the more overall appeal you will get. It could be really powerful in helping wide empires grow bigger.

 

[Amrunril]

I'm not sure I like the archaeologist bonus on the Terracotta Army. Sending archaeologists into other people's lands seems to me like something that should be determined by diplomacy. It also seems like the bonus relies a lot on the AI playing nice and not blocking their archaeology sites (assuming this is still how the system works) or declaring war and killing your archaeologists. I'm not saying this is an inherently bad dynamic (you already see it with religious units), but it seems out of place to have a unique world wonder bonus depend on it.

I'm also intrigued by the wording for Mahabodhi Temple. Are forest and jungle tiles now described as being "on wood" (this seems like awkward phrasing to me, but maybe they think "tile" sounds more gameist than they'd like?), or is wood a new resource? A new resource seems like a better fit with the language, but the other resource dependent wonder we've seen (Stonehenge) is build next to the resource, which I think is a better design, as it doesn't prevent you from actually working the resource.

Finally, the Venetian Arsenal seems quite strong. I suspect the bonus only applies to ships built in that city, though, which would tone it down at least a bit.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Just realized that since Wonders are not pillageable until you can nuke them, they will make a grest way to create artificial chokepoints on the map to defend your cities.

I don't think they create chokepoints as I still think they can be walked upon.

 

[Felis Renidens]

I don't think they create chokepoints as I still think they can be walked upon.

Well, if you walk on the Pyramids you might get trapped inside and attacked by a mummy but otherwise...

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Ed Beach mentioned awhile back that cities in the desert will have low appeal and won't grow very big. So I am thinking that appeal affects city growth. If true, the Eiffel Tower could be a great wonder for the wide empire since the more tiles you have in your empire the more overall appeal you will get. It could be really powerful in helping wide empires grow bigger.

In BNW the Eiffel Tower is a Tourism Wonder, before, that it was Happiness. It wouldn't surprise me if Appeal is kind of for both. It affects city size and Tourism value.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

Not being able to pass over wonders would be going full [censored word apparently ]... Just imagine it:

'Umm, Sarge... There's like, this, big stone circle in our path, sir? Request instructions, over.'

'Goddammit son, I guess we'll get home for Christmas after all! Unfortunately the Geneva Convention is very clear on this: big hunks of stone outrank humans in all situations and are not to be disturbed by noisy tanks or rowdy troops, so let's pack up 'n go home to our corrupt police sta-- Err, paradise of ultimate freedom and shiny happiness! Praise the Great Leader!'

'Err... Sir, yes sir! Praise the Mighty One and the wise drafters of the international rules of warfare!'