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Things that irk you

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by El Caballerion, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. DyadoMraz

    DyadoMraz Chieftain

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    It's not a good thing when it's at the expense of quality
    I wouldn't mind if we had Joan of Arc instead of Napoleon - she's made quite the impact herself even if she didn't quite build an empire like he did
    But having the emperor's concubine instead of Justinian himself? Some wanna be geisha instead of the deified hero that was Guan Yu? Some refugee queen instead of Hannibal, one of the greatest military and political minds in history? Come on
    I don't mind having female leaders if they actually had the accomplishments to make them a good pick. But having them just for the sake of having them and some forced variety? No, it most certainly is not a good thing

    And yes, I already said I know Richard was a pretty bad king and objectively Elizabeth is a much better pick
    I do think he's a more charismatic person though
     
  2. Lochlann

    Lochlann Warlord

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    Yeah, I think this is correct. I've never once encountered the absence of a "Previous route" note, outside a city capture scenario. Though it is highly annoying to have to search through the list to find that previous route, as the list doesn't center on that route by default.

    Well, this assumes one single definition of "quality". Which is of greater value: having a game that adheres strictly to history, assigning some sort of objective ranking to the achievements accomplished by various leaders and choosing ONLY those leaders who top the ranking? (Assuming any such objective ranking is possible, which of course it isn't?) Or having a game that teaches its players a bit about the variety of amazing figures who influenced the courses of their civilizations, bringing to light some of the neglected or (relatively) lesser-known such figures?

    That's a subjective question, of course, depending on one's definition of "quality". The point is, nowhere is it written that the devs must choose only those leaders that rank highest on some subjective scale. Education is a very large element of the game--else why the extensive Civilopedia entries explaining history, background, and context?--and, in my opinion, it's important to expose the players to some new things.

    (Especially when those new things involve greater awareness of influential women in history. I think it's super-important to counter some of patriarchy's effects, both throughout history (in terms of opportunity bias) and right now (in terms of presentation bias), by deliberately showcasing some of the women who have influenced history. Who cares if they don't rank highest on some (subjective) "influence scale"? Does this mean they aren't worthy of representing their nations? Does this really change the "quality" of the game, or the civs, etc.? Hell no, in my opinion. It's an actively good thing.

    Again, the answer is subjective, but that's entirely my point.)
     
  3. Evie94

    Evie94 Warlord

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    genuinely awful post
     
  4. Falconiano

    Falconiano Prince

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    I want to punch through my screen every time.
     
  5. Jimdigriz

    Jimdigriz Prince

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    Ive done this a few times and that bug has never happened to me.
     
  6. racha

    racha Warlord

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    Workers having to be given the same instruction turn after turn just because there's an enemy nearby. If I'm not paying attention I deserve to lose it, and if I am paying attention I shouldn't have to catch RSI.
     
  7. DyadoMraz

    DyadoMraz Chieftain

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    Personally, I'd prefer the former
    But more importantly, I'd argue that there's nothing amazing about the figures in question and they barely influenced history
    There's a good reason some figures are neglected or lesser known

    That is true
    Which is why I air my frustrations in the "things that irk you" thread, rather than take it to the devs

    I think there's something fundamentally wrong somewhere important if a video game has to be a medium of education
    And if Civ indeed strives to be, it's approaching it wrong in my opinion - it is implied that whoever leads a civilization is that civilization's greatest leader and best hope for it "to stand the test of time" and filling this role with the wrong person is bad education

    Furthermore, if educating the players about neglected or lesser known entities is the point of the exercise, why use any well known civilizations and leaders at all? Let's get rid of England, Germany, France, America and the likes and replace them with Zimbabwe, Macedonia and San Marino

    So we should alter history? How is that good for education?
    It's a historical fact that women were taking a back seat in pretty much all fields of consequence
    There's a reason why the emergence of the suffragettes was a big deal - it changed the status quo

    I do, yes and yes


    Don't get me wrong, I'm not annoyed that they included women and I'm not against certain leaders because they're women
    I'm annoyed because I believe there are far more interesting and deserving candidates that got shafted solely based on the fact that they're NOT female

    As I've said time and again, I'd be fine with women who get to be leaders based on their accomplishments rather than based just on their gender
    For example Elizabeth, Catherine and even Isabella are fine - even though I have other personal preferences for their spots, I won't argue that they have made enough of an impact to hold said spots
    But Dido, Wu Whatsherface and ESPECIALLY Theodora? Hell no
    There's just no possible way to justify that

    If you knew it was, why did you post it anyway?
     
  8. Falconiano

    Falconiano Prince

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    I think you're right, Dyado, but education isn't a valid point to support that.
    While you can argue that those leaders are almost meaningless and there are more valid substitutes, Civ V is not an educational game by any degree.
    The game actually tells you to change history (i.e. every pre-game speech says "will you be able to change history and lead Civ X to a new future yadda yadda), and it does a pretty bad job at being realistic.

    Then again, gamers are usually turned on by female in vidya so devs will make more money that way.
    Sad but true fella.
     
  9. VladTepes

    VladTepes Clown Prince of Wallachia

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    You place a city that's over 20 hexes from an AI. AI says "I see you are moving into areas that I consider my own." No, a-hole, the world is not yours.

    AI is Guarded, has the lowest happiness in the world. You offer three luxuries for one of his. They still demand half your horses and iron. Fine, let your people riot. Idiot.

    "I see that your civ is quite puny blah blah" Yet I have the largest and happiest population, highest GDP, production and literacy whereas you are three techs behind me and have negative happiness, hmmm....
     
  10. Marathoner

    Marathoner Warlord

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    Great generals spawning at the Capitol and not on the battlefield. Maybe that makes sense after satellites, but is just leads to a long dangerous trek to the front.
     
  11. Falconiano

    Falconiano Prince

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    A mod from whoward makes it spawn on the battlefield, it's just awesome.
     
  12. VladTepes

    VladTepes Clown Prince of Wallachia

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    I thought it was 3, but you're right, it's almost useless. I normally settle more cities in and after Industrial to get coal, alum etc. but by the time I can get to tenet level 3 I'm almost always done. The only way it can be useful for me is for founding uranium-mining cities, but by that time most of the globe is claimed or otherwise inaccessible / surrounded by other civs.
     
  13. Lochlann

    Lochlann Warlord

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    Hyperbolic claim aside, it's not that a video game "has" to be anything at all. It's that Civ clearly has a strong educational element to it, and has a great opportunity to leverage that element. To deny the game's educational components is to willfully deny a very large part of the game. ...I'm not going to try to tease out the myriad ways in which this game is educational, teaching players about the "ingredients" of history and encouraging them to combine them in different ways to appreciate their importance. Their existence is pretty self-evident. And, heh, after all, the very best educational tools are those whose educational qualities aren't even recognized.

    Educating the players about neglected/lesser-known individuals is not the sole point of any "exercise", no, but it certainly is part of the game. I recall an interview with a dev several years back that talked about explicitly this. See, you're clinging to a simplistic, monolithic interpretation of "education", suggesting that the game must either educate players about real history or educate players about lesser-known aspects of history...as though the game can't do both at the same time. Of course the game will, and must, strike a balance between hitting "the big names" and working in some lesser-known names, but your claim that it should logically do one or the other--"either use all the big traditional names, or use all obscure ones!"--that just doesn't follow at all.

    Well, you're right in a way. Everything you're saying about the devs' choice of less prominent names, etc., has been healthily argued and examined ever since the advent of Civ I. But you explicitly made this about women. And that opens up a very dangerous, and dangerously sensitive, can of worms. You have since said "this isn't about women", yes, but if that is the case why have you specifically chosen to focus on the female leaders? Your first post began "I still can't get over most of the female leaders", and everything that followed talked about the women. Even in your single post that says "it's not about women", you're still focusing entirely on the women.

    I'm not going to try to judge what you "really meant" or what you believe, but at the very least you need to understand the implications of how you phrased this. That was the source of Evie94's reply; the way you phrased this "irksome thing" was highly misogynistic. Maybe you don't care about that, and surely I'll be flamed for daring to mention feminism in a video game forum, but, oh well. You should know that your posts are not coming off well, from this angle.

    Ah, now this is really the heart of the matter, right here. There is a great deal of patriarchal bias that you're overlooking in making these statements. It has been (white) men who have written the history books, and though it's hard for guys to hear this (and I'm a guy), it is also a proven and inarguable fact that the recording of history has systematically downplayed women's accomplishments and influences -- either innocently, out of an attempt to "correct" the facts of history from those that have seemed unreasonable (to men), or intentionally. The accounts of medieval scribes systematically altering and excising the names, details, and outright doings of women are utterly fascinating (and horrifying), to name just one example. I won't get into all the theory here; the point is, history has not kept anything close to a "true record" of women's influences on even the Real Big History of the world. Concerning Theodora, for example, I was particularly impressed by CiV's civilopedia entry, which emphasized how much we just don't know, because of the overwhelming male bias possessed by the historians and archivists who recorded the magnitude of her influence. (You refer to her as merely "Justinian's concubine"; are you even familiar with her? I mean, yikes.)

    I'm not arguing that men have had a greater opportunity to influence history, of course. That's definitely true. Opportunity bias is a powerful thing; it's not ALL presentation/recording bias. But that presentation/recording bias has been instrumental in erasing women from history, even Really Big World-changing History.

    What do we do about this? We could do nothing, of course. As you yourself say, it's a game, it's not like it "has" to do anything. But just because it doesn't "have to" doesn't mean that it can't -- or that it shouldn't. Civ is ideally positioned to both acknowledge this massive presentation bias and work to counterbalance it, in a genre/subculture that rarely has to wrangle with such difficult issues no less, and that's what it has done. It has purposely presented the players with some remarkable women from these cultures, instead of the more traditional male figures. It allows players to get used to these women's names and existence. To, y'know, learn some new things. To even become familiar with these women's stories, in summary fashion, if they are interested.

    Does it do this at the expense of the traditional male figures? Yes, it does. You are absolutely free to list this as something that irks you, and express preference for the more """""correct"""" (insert a billion sarcasm quotation marks) version of history. Absolutely. Anyone is free to answer the question "Is this a bad thing?" however they like. I haven't been trying to exclude this as something that you have the right to be irked by; I'm just presenting the opposite view, because this is something that is desperately important.

    I personally feel that substituting the """""correct"""" leaders from history--to the extent that "correctness" can be objectively ascertained among even male leaders over hundreds or thousands of years, which it can't--with lesser-known yet still monumentally important women is something that should be championed. Forget tolerated or condoned; it should be heartily supported. It serves the purposes of both education, because these ARE real, and really important, leaders, and of equitability, taking a small step toward counteracting a monstrously overwhelming bias. You clearly disagree with this; fair enough. It's entirely subjective, as I said.
     
  14. DyadoMraz

    DyadoMraz Chieftain

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    It IS about women. But it's not me that makes it about women, it's the devs.
    That's the whole point - some of the female leaders are picked not because of their accomplishments but just because they're women
    Which is preachy, annoying and just as bad and discriminating as the opportunity and "representation bias" you keep talking about and have yet to support with any kind of proof

    Again, I'd like you to actually support your theory of "representation bias" with something
    While written history most certainly isn't 100% accurate, we can't just arbitrarily pick whichever parts we view as not being politically correct and twist and change them according to our needs and wants

    Problem is the girls in question haven't actually been all that important
    Even civilopedia which takes a lot of liberties in the name of "education" struggles to make them seem "monumentally important"

    Again, that's the whole point - we're not talking about some great women whose amazing accomplishments somehow remained largely unknown and Firaxis are now on a quest to enlighten the masses of these world-shaping deeds that these great women performed

    That's not the case at all

    What we have here is a few ordinary women with accomplishments ranging from "none" to "unimpressive" that Firaxis is forcing down our throats to show the world how politically correct they are and to pander to horny teens and feminists

    You can call me a misogynist or a chauvinist all you want but that won't change the fact


    edit:

    Oh and on the subject of Theodora
    The only thing that is known for certain about her is that she worked in a brothel
    Procopius couldn't seem to decide on anything after that as he kept contradicting himself in every one of his works
    And even if we pretend the contradictions do not exist and accept everything attributed to her as fact, it's STILL inconsequential
    Yikes
     
  15. Nickbonista

    Nickbonista Chieftain

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    Guessing it's probably not a mistake (for obvious reasons), but no achievements with mods enabled. Yes, there are ways of cheating, but surely having only the difficulty-specific achievements defined by difficulty (i.e. can get other achievements on settler) makes them easy to get if you really care.
     
  16. Roboe

    Roboe Chieftain

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    AI planting cities to troll you, because you missed a sufficiently large gap in your territory borders, or planting cities that will only ever grow due to the bonuses the AI gets (classic example: City built entirely on snow with no resources around for miles).
     
  17. pwnerer

    pwnerer Chieftain

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    one thing that absolutely drives me crazy is the random nature of generating a great prophet. Last game i had to get to 251/200 for the first one (extra 5 turns) and 345/300 for the next one (extra 4-5 turns). Absolutely crushing. both time a religion was founded RIGHT before my great prophet.
     
  18. Pythakoreas

    Pythakoreas Chef Tain

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    Time paradoxes... Hwachas before gunpowder, internet before computers...
    Cheesy and uncreative intro texts for a lot of vanilla leaders. I can imagine someone drinking 4 coffees at 2am writing these half asleep. For DLC and G&K leaders, the job was superb, especially for my favorite leaders Sejong and Haile Selassie.
     
  19. Scott Jegg

    Scott Jegg Warlord

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    The AI's BS at higher levels.

    Me: Hmm, 8 turns to build Pisa. That's fairly quick. With any luck I'll get that, pop a GE, and get Globe too.

    Next Turn: Nebuchadnezzar has built Globe Theatre.

    Me: Oh well, I'll get Pisa and use the GE elsewhere.

    6 turns later: Nebuchadnezzar has built Leaning tower of pisa (in the same city, no less)

    Me: W.T.F.?
     
  20. I.T.

    I.T. Chieftain

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    The game is

    a) completely ahistorical where employment in agriculture, industry, etc is concerned.
    Like in present times 2% of population can provide enough food for everyone. It used to be the other way around - 5% not farmers.

    b) the combat is simplified to the point of parody. Ignores all logistical constraints, such as that medieval armies had problems staying in one place due to food.

    c) population and growth models are not even wrong. And there's no variation in it, which in real life has been cause of much unrest, particularily when Krakatoa blew up in 473

    d) completely ignores disease.
    In case you don't know, when filthy, stinking Europeans (and they were filthy and stinking) got to Americas, they promptly and unwittingly infected the natives with flu, smallpox and a host of other diseases.

    Following that, most of the natives snuffed it.

    e) is wrong on nuclear weapons. Especially where thermonukes are concerned making more destructive bombs isn't that expensive. So turning your enemies into so much windborne ash is actually something like say, Hitler would do if given the chance Americans had in early 1960's, during the Missile Gap (which in reality was in favor of Americans)

    f) wrong on technology, how it comes to pass and especially it's spread.
    When Portugese got to Japan, Japs had no guns. Fifity years later they had more guns than all of Europe, and invaded Korea with an army that had 160,000 gunners alone..





    In short, it's a silly board game. Implemented on a computer.
     

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