MarigoldRan
WARLORD
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Let's say you start with the default amount of advanced start points.
What's the optimal path? What should you get?
What's the optimal path? What should you get?
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Thoughts About Advanced Start
- Thread starter MarigoldRan
- Start date
What game age are you referring to? Ancient? Modern?
I used to play industrial starts for a while, just out of curiosity. My observations for those would be:
1. Workers, workers, lots of workers. Improving the land is vital. Tile improvements cost 20 at setup while a worker costs 48, so it doesn't take long for a worker to earn back the investment.
2. I prefer not to place cities during setup, except for my capital and perhaps a second city for an immediate port site. I'd start with settlers instead, in order to expand farther out and make sure to get the right sites and resources.
3. I'd get at least one Explorer for exploration and preferably a Galleon or two (which is why I always wanted to start with at least one coastal city). The Galleons help establish contact with other civs, can transport settlers and eventually circumnavigate the globe (easy with map trades). Contacting the other civs is valuable for getting immediate trade routes (since you have Astronomy).
4. Keep in mind that all the religions get founded randomly on turn 1. By not placing cities at the start I could control whether I wanted my capital to be a holy city or perhaps the second city in some cases.
5. You can only buy two units per city, other than settlers and workers (which are unlimited). So you can't start the game with some stack of doom to rush other civs. I preferred not to buy any units even for defense, since investing in another worker or two would generally be better.
6. Serfdom is actually pretty good in this format! At least in the early stage of the game.
7. The majority of the AI's go for Scientific Method, then either Communism or Physics. I hadn't quite made up my mind about the best tech path to go, but it's worth keeping this in mind for tech trades.
1. Workers, workers, lots of workers. Improving the land is vital. Tile improvements cost 20 at setup while a worker costs 48, so it doesn't take long for a worker to earn back the investment.
2. I prefer not to place cities during setup, except for my capital and perhaps a second city for an immediate port site. I'd start with settlers instead, in order to expand farther out and make sure to get the right sites and resources.
3. I'd get at least one Explorer for exploration and preferably a Galleon or two (which is why I always wanted to start with at least one coastal city). The Galleons help establish contact with other civs, can transport settlers and eventually circumnavigate the globe (easy with map trades). Contacting the other civs is valuable for getting immediate trade routes (since you have Astronomy).
4. Keep in mind that all the religions get founded randomly on turn 1. By not placing cities at the start I could control whether I wanted my capital to be a holy city or perhaps the second city in some cases.
5. You can only buy two units per city, other than settlers and workers (which are unlimited). So you can't start the game with some stack of doom to rush other civs. I preferred not to buy any units even for defense, since investing in another worker or two would generally be better.
6. Serfdom is actually pretty good in this format! At least in the early stage of the game.
7. The majority of the AI's go for Scientific Method, then either Communism or Physics. I hadn't quite made up my mind about the best tech path to go, but it's worth keeping this in mind for tech trades.
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I think he is referring to what I assume is the little used feature of BTS that allows you to start the game, regardless of era, with the ability to buys cities, units, improvements and techs based on the number of points your are given. You can change those set number of points in the custom game options screen.
I play around with it a little. The Charlemagne delivered scenario uses the Advanced Start feature. However, I haven't played the option enough to be any kind of expert. My recommendation, and also what I generally do, is first play the map. I never buy more that one city since I don't think it is optimal really, unless the land you see is just superb. You can link the cities with roads. I prefer though to make the starting cap strong. I'll only buy a tech if it allows me to improve a strong resource that I don't have the starting tech for like AG for corn. Anything beyond the first tier techs is too expensive. I will certainly buy a couple of workers and some warriors to scout. Then improve the good food resources and if I have extra a mine or two - or if coastal with seafood, get the nets up. However, since you can actually buy improvements and roads, it may be worth focus most points on those and not even bother buying workers since you can build them fast. Oh...and another very important purchase is pop. Get your city to size 3 or 4.
I play around with it a little. The Charlemagne delivered scenario uses the Advanced Start feature. However, I haven't played the option enough to be any kind of expert. My recommendation, and also what I generally do, is first play the map. I never buy more that one city since I don't think it is optimal really, unless the land you see is just superb. You can link the cities with roads. I prefer though to make the starting cap strong. I'll only buy a tech if it allows me to improve a strong resource that I don't have the starting tech for like AG for corn. Anything beyond the first tier techs is too expensive. I will certainly buy a couple of workers and some warriors to scout. Then improve the good food resources and if I have extra a mine or two - or if coastal with seafood, get the nets up. However, since you can actually buy improvements and roads, it may be worth focus most points on those and not even bother buying workers since you can build them fast. Oh...and another very important purchase is pop. Get your city to size 3 or 4.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I play Advanced Starts pretty often; I play at Marathon speed and find the beginning of the game much too tedious without it. However, the AI doesn't necessarily make the best use of AS, so it can upset the game balance a bit. I always play Ancient Era starts.
I agree with hr_oskar--Workers are key. I usually buy 2-4 of them, depending. The only improvement I will bother with is fishing boats (if I have seafood and Fishing), since Workers can't help you with those.
However, you may need to purchase a worker tech or two. After all, your Workers need something to do. Know your civ's starting techs and check to see what you have in the capital's BFC. You may need to purchase something like Mining, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Hunting, or even The Wheel for roads so you can justify the investment in those workers. This will also affect how many Workers you'll initially purchase; you ideally don't want them sitting around idle.
The AI likes to invest its AS funds in additional cities, which should immediately make you wary of such a tactic. Think: without AS, where do you usually found your second city? To claim a strategic resource such as copper or horses, right? So why would you found that second city without knowing where it should go? I would rather invest in an additional citizen or two for the capital so resources can be worked and I can more quickly produce a Settler when needed. The only exception might be if there are two amazing city sites right next to one another (say, both with 1-2 or more food resources and an early commerce resource such as gold, silver, or gems); but that's extremely rare.
Finally, you are allowed to purchase up to 2 units (Warriors or Scouts) per city, and you should definitely buy those for exploring. I wouldn't bother with buying Hunting just so you can have Scouts; only do so if you have a camp resource in the capital's BFC as well, or if you think you'll really, really need Archery soon.
I agree with hr_oskar--Workers are key. I usually buy 2-4 of them, depending. The only improvement I will bother with is fishing boats (if I have seafood and Fishing), since Workers can't help you with those.
However, you may need to purchase a worker tech or two. After all, your Workers need something to do. Know your civ's starting techs and check to see what you have in the capital's BFC. You may need to purchase something like Mining, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Hunting, or even The Wheel for roads so you can justify the investment in those workers. This will also affect how many Workers you'll initially purchase; you ideally don't want them sitting around idle.
The AI likes to invest its AS funds in additional cities, which should immediately make you wary of such a tactic. Think: without AS, where do you usually found your second city? To claim a strategic resource such as copper or horses, right? So why would you found that second city without knowing where it should go? I would rather invest in an additional citizen or two for the capital so resources can be worked and I can more quickly produce a Settler when needed. The only exception might be if there are two amazing city sites right next to one another (say, both with 1-2 or more food resources and an early commerce resource such as gold, silver, or gems); but that's extremely rare.
Finally, you are allowed to purchase up to 2 units (Warriors or Scouts) per city, and you should definitely buy those for exploring. I wouldn't bother with buying Hunting just so you can have Scouts; only do so if you have a camp resource in the capital's BFC as well, or if you think you'll really, really need Archery soon.
MarigoldRan
WARLORD
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Check out the Marathon/Huge Advanced Start thread and tell me what you think. Save is provided. Uses BUG.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Do you have a link to it? I'm not sure which thread you're referring to.
Sisiutil, I believe MarigoldRan is referring to this recently created thread.
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I would but Huge/Marathon is prohibitive for a lot of players. If you want to get the board more active in your games, I would try posting standard settings.
Do you use BUG in custom assets? If so, there is no need to mention it since the saves will work with and without a mod. If you are using BUG as stand-alone then I recommend using the custom asset version instead.
MarigoldRan
WARLORD
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I want more people to play Marathon/Huge. If they do, then the board will become more active.
I'm not sure, so I'll warn everyone about the BUG mod regardless.
Xpl
Chieftain
Constantly pressuring settings like that will hardly get more attention than standards. They're standards for a reason.
Some people don't have the time to play lots of marathon games, and as the famous saying goes: Time is money.
Second point, Huge settings call for a more advanced machine. Granted this board attracts a large bulk of pc gamers, but not everyone will want to wait 5 minutes per turn in 500AD.
I would pay more attention to what you say, and participate more if standards were used, because right now it's not efficient nor practical to assume that interest and activity will rise.
On topic, I've only played one advanced start and that was to see what it was all about. An educated guess would be to invest in 2 cities workers. I think having 2 workers right off the bat would be far more efficient than sticking a monument in the second city if you have Mysticism.
Some people don't have the time to play lots of marathon games, and as the famous saying goes: Time is money.
Second point, Huge settings call for a more advanced machine. Granted this board attracts a large bulk of pc gamers, but not everyone will want to wait 5 minutes per turn in 500AD.
I would pay more attention to what you say, and participate more if standards were used, because right now it's not efficient nor practical to assume that interest and activity will rise.
On topic, I've only played one advanced start and that was to see what it was all about. An educated guess would be to invest in 2 cities workers. I think having 2 workers right off the bat would be far more efficient than sticking a monument in the second city if you have Mysticism.
MarigoldRan
WARLORD
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A businessman or a person in marketing may not entirely agree with you there. If they do not promote their business, then it will die.
You're assuming that I'm doing it to get attention. If I wanted more attention, I would in fact be discussing more about standard settings. After all, I agree, that would be the most logical choice.
Um the Muse
King
Is it possible to put in a negative number for Advanced Start? Iirc, if you change the era that you're starting in, you start out with stuff, right? So, assuming you can take stuff away, is there a way to take it all back, so that you have the techs of the era, but still only have a military unit and a settler?
