Three Gorges Dam?!?!

[Zany]

This is B.S. The Hoover Dam was a wonder in its time, this Three Gorges Dam ISN'T EVEN COMPLETED and is somewhat easier to build nowadays. Now someone gonna come here citing all these numbers about how many tons of concrete are being moved around, but come on, most things are easier to do now. If someone built the Great Lighthouse now, it would be no great achievement. But back then it certainly deserved the designation of a world wonder. Why on earth did they replace the Hoover Dam, the wonder still provides the same benefits, right? They probably didn't want to seem Amerocentric (or whatever the term for US-focused is) and are trying to sell the game to the Chinese market.

 

[dc82]

Yeah even the small wonders - I rather they be generically named or civ-specific names so e.g.

Newton's University: National University - or Oxford, Harvard, Qinghua, etc., or X_City University

some more ideas:

Shakespeare Theatre: Globe Theatre, Broadway, Kabuki/Noh Theatre, Epidaurus Theatre

Bach's Cathedral: Notre Dame, St. Patrick's Cathedral, Potala Palace, Taj Mahal, Big Goose Pagoda

Temple of Zeus: Temple of Zeus, Bamiyan Giant Buddha, Cristo Redentor (Statue of Christ in Rio de Janeiro), Al-hajar Al-aswad (Black Stone of Kaaba), Olmec Statue

I'm sure you can find similiar wonders to the Sistine Chapel, Leonardo's Workshop, Copernicus's Observatory, Magellon's Expedition, Smith's Trading Company

 

[MRM]

Hoover is surely more well known than Three Gorges though, I'd say maybe 1000% more so? Besides, "Hoover" sounds better than "Three Gorges".

I'am not sure if Hoover Dam ist better known here then Tree Gorges - simply because there are reports in televison and in newspapers sometimes about the Tree Gorges Dam ( mainly about the resettlements ), but Hoover Dam makes no headlines anymore ...( and "Drei Schluchten Staudamm" sounds not to bad in the german version )

I still think it'd be nice if somehow each civ/culture group can have their own list of wonders, perhaps finding similiar great achievements (in purpose, construction date, structure, or effect) in their respective groups. So for example:

Hoover Dam - Great Gorges Dam - Aswan Dam

Hanging Gardens - Central Park - Imperial Gardens - Versailles

Great Pyramid of Giza - Temple of the Sun - Terracotta Soldiers (buried with the first Emperor of China in a giant tomb complex) - Stonehenge

Empire State Building - Eiffel Tower - Petronas Towers - Burj Dubai

Grand Canal - Suez Canal - Panama Canal - Erie Canal - AmsterdamRhine Canal

I think this is an excellent idea, the only problem might be this - if you can build lets say 20 wonders and there are 18 civs, then the gamedisgner have to programm 360 wonders ...
But maybe with the help of the modder community it is possible ( but I have no idea how difficult a good wonder movie will be for a hobby modder )

I have no problem with being less Euro/West-centric as long as wonders are chosen for valid reasons and not merely for the sake of getting away from the Eurocentrism.

Are there valid reasons for all modern wonders ? The ancient wonders were great monuments for prestige or religous purpose, sacrifices are made ( in terms of resources and often people ) - and than look at the modern wonders - hollywood, rock'n roll, broadway ...that is comerce - no sacrifice here because money is earned. Internet - more or less the same + it is build more or less by all countries, every computer logged in is a part of it. Pentagon - it's a ministry building , so what ...

The sacrifice aspect is IMO missing here completly

+ it seems quite biased that mainly american wonders are chosen ( in the modern age )

And so IMO the 3G Dam is the better choise, because here are more sacrifices made ( 2 Mio people resettled, if this is good is an other question ), and China get a wonder ( btw why is the great wall missing ??? )

The only other modern wonders that is IMO a real wonder is the Apollo Programm, because it was extrem expensiv + man died + no commercial gain. I am fine with one entertainmant "wonder" (but three is IMO to much, or you shout add those entertainments as something else than a great wonder ) and I would prefer some other preindusinstustrial wonders instead.( leonardos workshop for example as a symbol for the beginnig of the Renaissance for example, which changed the course of history far more than Broadway Musicals, or the indian templetown of Madurai is also quite impressiv, or the golden temple of Bangkok and you can find so much more if you are willing to look for it ... )

 

[Ramalhão]

Yeah even the small wonders - I rather they be generically named or civ-specific names so e.g.

Newton's University: National University - or Oxford, Harvard, Qinghua, etc., or X_City University

some more ideas:

Shakespeare Theatre: Globe Theatre, Broadway, Kabuki/Noh Theatre, Epidaurus Theatre

Bach's Cathedral: Notre Dame, St. Patrick's Cathedral, Potala Palace, Taj Mahal, Big Goose Pagoda

Temple of Zeus: Temple of Zeus, Bamiyan Giant Buddha, Cristo Redentor (Statue of Christ in Rio de Janeiro), Al-hajar Al-aswad (Black Stone of Kaaba), Olmec Statue

I'm sure you can find similiar wonders to the Sistine Chapel, Leonardo's Workshop, Copernicus's Observatory, Magellon's Expedition, Smith's Trading Company

Some people already sugested Newton't University being renamed to National University or <name of city where it was built> University.

Temple of Zeus I can understand is a nice wonder, because greek mithology won't be a religion in Civ4, so it's a neutral wonder, not related to any religion. But Cristo Redentor could be a wonder called something like Messiah Statue, giving some cultural and religious bonus to temples/cathedrals .

 

[dc82]

I think this is an excellent idea, the only problem might be this - if you can build lets say 20 wonders and there are 18 civs, then the gamedisgner have to programm 360 wonders ...
But maybe with the help of the modder community it is possible ( but I have no idea how difficult a good wonder movie will be for a hobby modder )

Well despite the numerous wonders - it's still be more for aesthetic purposes - At most just an extra entry on Civilopedia and a graphical tweak here and there - but essentially the tech/resource/effect of the wonder would be the same, it would just be a different in name/appearance. Instead of doing it per civ, which maybe difficult - perhaps it should be based on cultural group - European, Asian, Middle Eastern, Native American, etc.

 

[MRM]

Well despite the numerous wonders - it's still be more for aesthetic purposes - At most just an extra entry on Civilopedia and a graphical tweak here and there - but essentially the tech/resource/effect of the wonder would be the same, it would just be a different in name/appearance. Instead of doing it per civ, which maybe difficult - perhaps it should be based on cultural group - European, Asian, Middle Eastern, Native American, etc.

I agree that this would not be the problem - but the films ? I'am not sure, if it is difficult to make and render such a wonderfilm. And of course all wonderfilms should have an equal quality

 

[dc82]

I suppose... then again I rather have diversity in wonders than a 15. sec clip of "Newton's University" whatever that means...

 

[Drakan]

I never understand why Firaxis prefered Hoover Dam instead of Itaipu. There isn't any south american wonder in Civ,

Chitchen Itza in Civ IV ?

 

[Ramalhão]

Chitchen Itza in Civ IV ?

It's in Mexico, isn't it? As I wrote before, here in Brazil we consider America divided in 3 parts: North (Mexico, USA and Canada), South (from Colombia to south) and central (istmus and islands).

 

[Drakan]

Aww ! Don't be so nitpicky Ramalhão !

I consider Mother Nature´s GW all those beautiful "mulatas" which dance samba and drive us up the wall.

Heck, the Rio da Janeiro carnival should be some kind of civic Small Wonder available with Emancipation.

 

[Ramalhão]

Aww ! Don't be so nitpicky Ramalhão !

I consider Mother Nature´s GW all those beautiful "mulatas" which dance samba and drive us up the wall.

Heck, the Rio da Janeiro carnival should be some kind of civic Small Wonder available with Emancipation.

Well, I don't like carnival , but it could be a wonder, because broadway was considered a wonder in Civ4 .

 

[Evie]

A big problem with Hoover is that, essentialy, beyond the borders of America, it's a non-entity. I never heard of any Hoover Dam before first playing Civilization, and I'm sure others are like me in that regard.

Hoover is thus, essentialy a small (ie, regional/national) wonder, not a Great Wonder of the World. Brazilians think the Itaipu dam should be in; the Québecers would probably speak up for either of the massives Manicouagan or La Grande dam complexes, and the Russians have some fairly sizeable dams of their own. The majority of them probably have never even HEARD of Hoover.

3GD, by comparision, has been over the headlines in the past few years, and it's an issue that has achieved some degree of worldwide recognition. It may not be better known than Hoover in the United States, or than Manic or LG in Québec, or Itaipu in Brazil, but it's at least known to everybody.

Hence why it makes a better choice to me.

 

[Drakan]

Bah Broadway ! Side to side I stick with Rio´s carnival. Samba baby !

 

[Ramalhão]

A big problem with Hoover is that, essentialy, beyond the borders of America, it's a non-entity. I never heard of any Hoover Dam before first playing Civilization, and I'm sure others are like me in that regard.

Hoover is thus, essentialy a small (ie, regional/national) wonder, not a Great Wonder of the World. Brazilians think the Itaipu dam should be in; the Québecers would probably speak up for either of the massives Manicouagan or La Grande dam complexes, and the Russians have some fairly sizeable dams of their own. The majority of them probably have never even HEARD of Hoover.

3GD, by comparision, has been over the headlines in the past few years, and it's an issue that has achieved some degree of worldwide recognition. It may not be better known than Hoover in the United States, or than Manic or LG in Québec, or Itaipu in Brazil, but it's at least known to everybody.

Hence why it makes a better choice to me.

I also never heard of Hoover Dam before Civ. But here we think Itaipu should be a wonder because it's considered one of the seven modern world of the world. And this wonder isn't entirely in Brazil, it's in Paraná River, Paraguay frontier. It's a 50% brazilian and 50% paraguayan dam. Look for Itaipu in Wikipedia, there's a lot of good information there.

 

[Evie]

I know about it - by now. But the average North American-er knows little more about Itaipu than the average Brazilians about Hoover. Classified as one of the "modern seven wonders" or not, Itaipu essentialy doesn't exist beyond South America, anymore than Hoover outside the US or any such. Dams, especially the older ones, have no cultural or social existence outside the region they're built in; NOBODY knows about them.

The 3GD and MAYBE Aswan are the only two exceptions I can think of. 3GD, owin to being a controversial headslines-making project, stands out the most these days.

 

[knupp715]

Just thought I should add my opinion.
First off, for everyone saying that it isn't fair that the three gorges damn is in Civ because it hasn't built yet. What about longevity, Cure For Cancer, Alph Centuari???
@ramalhoa - I have never heard anything about Itaipu, so it is hard for me to say my opinion not knowing anything about it. I do think however, that the three gorges dam should be put in the game over hoover dam because even though it's not built yet, I think it will definitely be considered one of the modern wonders of the ages.

 

[HourlyDaily]

@dc82 - Your idea is the right way to go. I don't care much if the video doesn't look right or the WYSIWYG looks different to the culture group model you built as long as the 'localised' wonder makes the most sense for that Civ.

I am going to miss some of the wonders that didn't get reinstated from older civ games, but I'm looking forward to their re-appearance as mods. As for the euro-centrism, most of those wonders deserve to be there. I know the programmers have limited time, but if they thought more laterally it wouldn't be the end of the franchise, so what if we haven't heard of this great achievement before because we will once we've played the game.

Normally I'd argue that the wonders in the game are too US-centric (not a word), particularly the small wonder Mt. Rushmore. Anyone overseas who has been exposed to a lot of American TV tends to learn a lot about American history and culture, in some cases more about the US than their own culture and history, so its not because I haven't heard of them.

I for one can tell you more about the Mayflower than our own First Fleet. I learned about the Battle of Little Bighorn at a younger age than I did about the Eureka Stockade (the most famous case of civil disobedience in Australian history) and I grew up in the town that the Stockade took place!

But in the case of the Hoover Dam, I'd prefer it to stay that way. It was one of the great construction feats of mankind and because of that it deserves a place. But to be honest, it really matters little in the end.

 

[Belboz]

Hoover Dam is OK, but Nevada's real 'Great Wonder' is Las Vegas. Think of all of the 'great wonders' reproduced there: the Pyramids, the Statue of Liberty, the Eiffel Tower. . . . Can we get Vegas in an expansion?

 

[m15a]

my dream is to build a city that will rival las vegas in the number of wonders. lol.

 

[Willem]

Don't forget that the Three Gorges Dam doesn't just represent China's industrial powers, but also it's tendancy to subjugate its people to achieve such things. How many people were displaced by the dam? 1.9 million have lost/are going to lose their homes.

How many Native Americans lost their homes so the Americans could gain the territory in order to build the Hoover Dam? In fact, American is only a country at all because it subjugated all of the local population. Don't be pointing fingers at other nations unless yours are clean as well. Presuming you're an American of course.