Willowmound
Wordbug
dc82 said:
Yeah I know, I was merely making my point. Too lazy to think of a better example, sorry.
Three Gorges Dam?!?!
- Thread starter ew0054
- Start date
Yeah I know, I was merely making my point. Too lazy to think of a better example, sorry.
Willowmound
Wordbug
microbe said:
I rather thought it was. Who still believes that slaves built the Pyramids? I don't recall hearing about a single egyptologist who still believes that. Correct me (with a URL or book reference) if I'm wrong!
Distraction said:
Thanks I already knew this, but I believe the number you've given is way too low. Millions of people have been moved.
But the point is that we are speaking of a GW. The Pyramids were built by egyptians "incentivated" by whiplashes (albeit they weren't slaves in fact), still, three thousand years later no one doubts they are a GW and a feat in the History of Humankind.
I believe you're mistaken. In China a recurring problem over the milenia have been the floods of the Yang Tse river killing millions of people over time, both directly (drowning) and indirectly (ruining crops, spreading diseases; just think of Louisiana and you'll get the big picture). The 3G attempts to address this problem once and for all, so it in fact will be saving lifes aswell as generating electricity. Besides, it is obviously been heralded by the communists as a chinese engineering feat, which undoubtedly it is.
Civ is very eurocentic and it was about time it opened up to other culture´s modern achievements (not the typical Great Wall and Pyramids GWs). As someone posted you have the Itaipu to choose from prior to the 3G.
joethreeblah
King
Although I'm glad they are putting it in the game, he DOES have a point...Drakan said:
megabrainz
Visionary Luddite
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2002
- Messages
- 125
You know im sure that the main reason they changed it is so they could market it as a new wonder.
For a second there I thought you meant that the Chinese built 3G because they wanted a modern Chinese wonder in Civ!
"Now we shall show Sid Meier that Chinese engineering is great, not just in the ancient age, but in all ages! Muhahahahahhaaaaa!"
For a second there I thought you meant that the Chinese built 3G because they wanted a modern Chinese wonder in Civ!
"Now we shall show Sid Meier that Chinese engineering is great, not just in the ancient age, but in all ages! Muhahahahahhaaaaa!"
sela1s1son
King
I have no problem with being less Euro/West-centric as long as wonders are chosen for valid reasons and not merely for the sake of getting away from the Eurocentrism.
While I think the Hoover Dam stands out, the Three Gorges Damn certainly is noteable. However, for all we know (and let us hope this won't be the case) it could fail and collapse after a handfull of years and result in a lot of people dying. Again, I hope that is not the case. I'm just pointing out that not only does the Hoover Dam stand out, it's also survived for quite some time and proven itself reliable for the most part. Engineering disastors do happen, sadly. Seeing as they brought back the Statue of Liberty, I'm not so bothered by it as I otherwise would be. I'm almost for saying that each Civ should have a wonder that could be associated with it (nothing comes to mind for the Mongols, Aztecs, or Germans off the top of my head). I think adding Chichen Itza, for example, was a good move IMHO. The Mayan built roughly ten times as many pyramids as the Egyptians (one for every city practicly), although size may be different (certainly most would be smaller then the Great Pyramid).
Newton's University, Adam Smith's Trading Company, Marco Polo's Voyage, and many other western based 'wonders' deserve representation either for thier signifigance as a building/event/organization/marker of a turning point. Now the west (at least in recent centuries) has certainly been the center of power (not to put down China (especially) or the Arabs as they too have been centers of power both in the past and even today) and that could put a spin on such things. Fair? No, it isn't.
Personally I think China qualifies as deserving several wonders, it is an ancient culture with a magnificant history, but they certainly have more then one already. The Great Wall, in addition to the Pyramids, is in the top two of most deserving of being recognized as a Wonder. The Great Wall will likely always be in Civ, as it should be. The Forbidden Palace is also in it, albeit a small wonder. America has two: The Manhatten Project, and either the Statue of Liberty or the Hoover Dam. While the SoL is a gift from France (and therefore could qualify as a French wonder if you wanted to be technical), I'd still rather have the SoL representing the USA instead of the Hoover Dam. The USA could also claim the UN to a degree (it being in New York City... the HQ building being built by Americans... America being one of the main proponents for it)... but to be fair, Geneva, Switzerland also houses UN facilities.
America and China both do have small wonders (Mt. Rushmore, Forbidden Palace) and America does get some more Wonders (Hollywood, Broadway, The Pentagon (full wonder now), the Statue of Liberty, possibly the Internet (altough the WWW is International/Swiss) so as a patriotic American I'm certainly in no posistion to complain about my beloved country being under-represented. I'd personaly rather have the Hoover Dam the Hollywood or Broadway, but to give that honor to China while having one of those... meh, fair trade especially seeing the effect Hollywood or Broadway might have.
It's to bad that there isn't something between Wonder and Small wonder, perhaps a level where only one or two could be built... one would be the Hoover Dam (first built historicaly, and thus the first one for the first Civ to build) the other Three Gorges. The other possibility would be to have both... either seperate from each other, or connected. IE: Scenario #1: Hoover Dam is worth X hammers and has X strength effect, Three Gorges costs 3X hammers and has 3X effect.... OR only one "Large Dam" project could be built... you choose which one... so Three Gorges would be riskier in a race to build "Large Dam" but the payoff greater.
I'll probably grumble a little about it, but seeing as they're bringing back the Statue of Liberty (which is more known... and more known as American globally) I'll accept it. I reserve the right, for whatever reasons (IE, it suffers a catastrophe during/after construction, it's abandoned, personal taste, someone stole my soda... whatever) to change the name or even change it back. I might make it the Hoover Dam for certain scenarios I have in mind, but still... it's basically the same thing. As long as we're not renaming it for the sole sake of being less Eurocentric, and are renaming it due to it deserving to be reckognized over "Old western wonder X" then I have no problem. I am glad to see new/different wonders (Chichen Itza makes me very happy), but I want them to be ones that certainly deserve the honor (Taj Mahal and Angor Wat are others I'm very happy they added)
Again, as long as each wonder in the game stands of its own merit being in the game (and wasn't thrown in just to represent everyone), then that's fine by me. Now a lot of Western 'wonders' (I use quotes as they're not always buildings, but could be events/undertakings/organizations/etc) certainly stand up for being counted... and they've pretty much been in Civ games to date. They shouldn't be thrown away for fearing of being overly Westernized alone.
While I think the Hoover Dam stands out, the Three Gorges Damn certainly is noteable. However, for all we know (and let us hope this won't be the case) it could fail and collapse after a handfull of years and result in a lot of people dying. Again, I hope that is not the case. I'm just pointing out that not only does the Hoover Dam stand out, it's also survived for quite some time and proven itself reliable for the most part. Engineering disastors do happen, sadly. Seeing as they brought back the Statue of Liberty, I'm not so bothered by it as I otherwise would be. I'm almost for saying that each Civ should have a wonder that could be associated with it (nothing comes to mind for the Mongols, Aztecs, or Germans off the top of my head). I think adding Chichen Itza, for example, was a good move IMHO. The Mayan built roughly ten times as many pyramids as the Egyptians (one for every city practicly), although size may be different (certainly most would be smaller then the Great Pyramid).
Newton's University, Adam Smith's Trading Company, Marco Polo's Voyage, and many other western based 'wonders' deserve representation either for thier signifigance as a building/event/organization/marker of a turning point. Now the west (at least in recent centuries) has certainly been the center of power (not to put down China (especially) or the Arabs as they too have been centers of power both in the past and even today) and that could put a spin on such things. Fair? No, it isn't.
Personally I think China qualifies as deserving several wonders, it is an ancient culture with a magnificant history, but they certainly have more then one already. The Great Wall, in addition to the Pyramids, is in the top two of most deserving of being recognized as a Wonder. The Great Wall will likely always be in Civ, as it should be. The Forbidden Palace is also in it, albeit a small wonder. America has two: The Manhatten Project, and either the Statue of Liberty or the Hoover Dam. While the SoL is a gift from France (and therefore could qualify as a French wonder if you wanted to be technical), I'd still rather have the SoL representing the USA instead of the Hoover Dam. The USA could also claim the UN to a degree (it being in New York City... the HQ building being built by Americans... America being one of the main proponents for it)... but to be fair, Geneva, Switzerland also houses UN facilities.
America and China both do have small wonders (Mt. Rushmore, Forbidden Palace) and America does get some more Wonders (Hollywood, Broadway, The Pentagon (full wonder now), the Statue of Liberty, possibly the Internet (altough the WWW is International/Swiss) so as a patriotic American I'm certainly in no posistion to complain about my beloved country being under-represented. I'd personaly rather have the Hoover Dam the Hollywood or Broadway, but to give that honor to China while having one of those... meh, fair trade especially seeing the effect Hollywood or Broadway might have.
It's to bad that there isn't something between Wonder and Small wonder, perhaps a level where only one or two could be built... one would be the Hoover Dam (first built historicaly, and thus the first one for the first Civ to build) the other Three Gorges. The other possibility would be to have both... either seperate from each other, or connected. IE: Scenario #1: Hoover Dam is worth X hammers and has X strength effect, Three Gorges costs 3X hammers and has 3X effect.... OR only one "Large Dam" project could be built... you choose which one... so Three Gorges would be riskier in a race to build "Large Dam" but the payoff greater.
I'll probably grumble a little about it, but seeing as they're bringing back the Statue of Liberty (which is more known... and more known as American globally) I'll accept it. I reserve the right, for whatever reasons (IE, it suffers a catastrophe during/after construction, it's abandoned, personal taste, someone stole my soda... whatever) to change the name or even change it back. I might make it the Hoover Dam for certain scenarios I have in mind, but still... it's basically the same thing. As long as we're not renaming it for the sole sake of being less Eurocentric, and are renaming it due to it deserving to be reckognized over "Old western wonder X" then I have no problem. I am glad to see new/different wonders (Chichen Itza makes me very happy), but I want them to be ones that certainly deserve the honor (Taj Mahal and Angor Wat are others I'm very happy they added)
Again, as long as each wonder in the game stands of its own merit being in the game (and wasn't thrown in just to represent everyone), then that's fine by me. Now a lot of Western 'wonders' (I use quotes as they're not always buildings, but could be events/undertakings/organizations/etc) certainly stand up for being counted... and they've pretty much been in Civ games to date. They shouldn't be thrown away for fearing of being overly Westernized alone.
I wouldn't advocate to erradicate western GWs. It's only I feel Civ should be more open to other (i.e. asian) cultures. And it seems this step is being taken in this new instalment of the franchise.
In this forum one can clearly see a japanese discussing civ strats with a brazilian, and along comes a german player and rebutts everything. This is what I think Civ should aspire to. The Civ Community spreads throughout the globe and it would be nice to have that representation in the game aswell (why standard knights for japan, why not mounted samurais ?). I believe they are doing just this with Civ IV so I have nothing to complain.
P.D. I'd be the first grumbling If the King wasn't in the game btw.
Bringing back the SoL is a must, I never quite understood why they took it away. Might be a french gift (a miniature replica is in the seine river in Paris) but it's one hundred per cent american, it represents what every poor immigrant fleeing from poverty-stricken Europe looked up upon entering Long Island, it´s the american dream incarnation.
In this forum one can clearly see a japanese discussing civ strats with a brazilian, and along comes a german player and rebutts everything. This is what I think Civ should aspire to. The Civ Community spreads throughout the globe and it would be nice to have that representation in the game aswell (why standard knights for japan, why not mounted samurais ?). I believe they are doing just this with Civ IV so I have nothing to complain.
P.D. I'd be the first grumbling If the King wasn't in the game btw.
Bringing back the SoL is a must, I never quite understood why they took it away. Might be a french gift (a miniature replica is in the seine river in Paris) but it's one hundred per cent american, it represents what every poor immigrant fleeing from poverty-stricken Europe looked up upon entering Long Island, it´s the american dream incarnation.
dc82
Prince
I still think it'd be nice if somehow each civ/culture group can have their own list of wonders, perhaps finding similiar great achievements (in purpose, construction date, structure, or effect) in their respective groups. So for example:
Hoover Dam - Great Gorges Dam - Aswan Dam
Hanging Gardens - Central Park - Imperial Gardens - Versailles
Great Pyramid of Giza - Temple of the Sun - Terracotta Soldiers (buried with the first Emperor of China in a giant tomb complex) - Stonehenge
Empire State Building - Eiffel Tower - Petronas Towers - Burj Dubai
Grand Canal - Suez Canal - Panama Canal - Erie Canal - AmsterdamRhine Canal
Hoover Dam - Great Gorges Dam - Aswan Dam
Hanging Gardens - Central Park - Imperial Gardens - Versailles
Great Pyramid of Giza - Temple of the Sun - Terracotta Soldiers (buried with the first Emperor of China in a giant tomb complex) - Stonehenge
Empire State Building - Eiffel Tower - Petronas Towers - Burj Dubai
Grand Canal - Suez Canal - Panama Canal - Erie Canal - AmsterdamRhine Canal
ferenginar
Grand Nagus
I think that this is an issue for Civ (Sid) to address in so much that there are many great dams and only one wonder.
I would like the game to progress as follows.
A Civ can only build a great dam if it has a suitable (great river) river within a city radius, the first civ to build a great dam gets the wonder benefits, others civs can still build great dams, but only get 50% of the wonder benefits.
Each Civ should have a suitable name for their great dam, or gardens, or Pyramids. If a Civ eg English didn't build any pyramids then a suitable replacement could be found.
Wonder benefits woudl need reworking a bit to make this feasible but it would be more realistic than one civ builds Hoover Dam and the rest don't. I get particularly annoyed when AI Civ completes something one turn before me. With a sensible system in place you wouldn't have to worry about wonder switching.
I would like the game to progress as follows.
A Civ can only build a great dam if it has a suitable (great river) river within a city radius, the first civ to build a great dam gets the wonder benefits, others civs can still build great dams, but only get 50% of the wonder benefits.
Each Civ should have a suitable name for their great dam, or gardens, or Pyramids. If a Civ eg English didn't build any pyramids then a suitable replacement could be found.
Wonder benefits woudl need reworking a bit to make this feasible but it would be more realistic than one civ builds Hoover Dam and the rest don't. I get particularly annoyed when AI Civ completes something one turn before me. With a sensible system in place you wouldn't have to worry about wonder switching.
ew0054 said:
I'm sorry to say few people knows what Hoover Dam is outside USA.
ferenginar
Grand Nagus
Are you trying to tell me it is not a pile of old vacuum cleaners?
I simply don't consider any of the two a "wonder"
Ramalhão
Warlord
I never understand why Firaxis prefered Hoover Dam instead of Itaipu. There isn't any south american wonder in Civ, so Firaxis could use Itaipu, which is the largest dam in generating capacity. And Itaipu Dam, despite Hoover, is considered one of the modern wonders of the world.
And Itaipu should be in Civ4 instead of Three Gourges Dam, first because Itaipu is finished, and second because there are already two chinese wonders (Art of War and Great Wall), but not a single south american wonder.
Firaxis should look at Wikipedia to choose which wonders it could add to the game.
And Itaipu should be in Civ4 instead of Three Gourges Dam, first because Itaipu is finished, and second because there are already two chinese wonders (Art of War and Great Wall), but not a single south american wonder.
Firaxis should look at Wikipedia to choose which wonders it could add to the game.
