Three Gorges Dam?!?!

Drakan said:
Civ is very eurocentic and it was about time it opened up to other culture´s modern achievements (not the typical Great Wall and Pyramids GWs). As someone posted you have the Itaipu to choose from prior to the 3G.
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Not to mention that the rise of China as a consumer nation means millions of copies of the game could concievably be sold there as well. It represents a huge potential market for computer games in the future, and it would make financial sense to include some aspects of it's current culture, especially with a game like Civ.
 
dc82's idea is great. Be the first to build the wonder and you get to have it named from your cultural perspective. Maybe if you capture the city that contains a great wonder you could re-name it then as well.
 
ferenginar said:
I get particularly annoyed when AI Civ completes something one turn before me. With a sensible system in place you wouldn't have to worry about wonder switching.
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There'll be no wonder switching in Civ 4. If another civ beats you to it, you're SOL. You'll get some gold for your troubles, but you won't be allowed to simply switch to something else anymore. Even with ordinary improvements/units, you'll have to start from scratch. If you're building a University for example and decide you need a Knight more, the University will remain partially constructed and the Knight will begin from nothing. You'll be able to go back to the University later, but there'll be a certain amount of decay after building the Knight. Wait to long and you lose it altogether.
 
Willem said:
How many Native Americans lost their homes so the Americans could gain the territory in order to build the Hoover Dam? In fact, American is only a country at all because it subjugated all of the local population. Don't be pointing fingers at other nations unless yours are clean as well. Presuming you're an American of course.
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Uh, none. The natives that built the earlier stone homes in the canyons died out long before the Spanish explorers even arrived in the region. The area around Vegas was almost uninhabited at the time due to harsh climate in the days before air conditioning. The few locals there before the dam were just there for a watering stop for the railroad line. Don't just assume everything good must be built at someone else's suffering as that isn't always the case.

NO nation is totally clean in it's history, so none of are perfect to accuse others. Even the Vatican appeased Hitler before WWII. :rolleyes:
 
mossmonster said:
NO nation is totally clean in it's history, so none of are perfect to accuse others. Even the Vatican appeased Hitler before WWII. :rolleyes:
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That was kind of my point, though maybe with something of an anti-American slant. (A previous flag-waving post kind of got my girdle in a knot, sorry.)

When any nation takes on a megaproject of the scale of the 3 Gorges, people will be displaced. Here in Canada, people were relocated in Quebec in order to build their hydro-electric system. They weren't given an option, though they were compensated. Calling it subjugating is rather a harsh definition for something that every nation takes part in if it feels the greater good will be served by doing so.

China for instance, desperately needs clean hydro-power. People are still heating their homes there with coal, creating huge problems of pollution not just for that country, but the whole world. A large number of people may be inconvenienced by this, but in the long run it will be to everyone's benefit, even those that don't live in China. Provided of course it doesn't collapse.
 
I remember reading this news article criticizing Captain Planet (the cartoon), which apparently had always been criticized for being very anti-American. But either way, there was one episode when the "bad guy" was building a dam. At the end, the dam was destroyed of course - but yeah, the news article was highlighting how cartoon oversimplied the situation - it's always a delicate balance - between preserving the past and moving towards the future - the entire river region will be flooded, millions displaced - at the same time, the people desperately need power and at least a hydroelectric dam would be less polluting than 1000 coal and oil power plants, refineries, and mines. Building the dam may allow for greater flood control, as the rainy season always wrecks havok in the region - either way the point is, it's not as black and white as people'd like to make it.
 
Eloquently stated dc82. Where the geography permits hydro power is one of the best economically viable/least polluting ways to go as of yet. I just want the electricity to flow uninterrupted come Oct. 24th! :crazyeye:
 
Hydroelectric is clean but it's not perfect. It wreaks havoc upon the ecology of the place it is in and could lead to numerous plant and animal species to become endangered or extinct.

IMO, Three Gorges Dam is very different than cure for cancer, etc. It's an actual, specific, physical thing. I don't think it should replace the Hoover Dam yet, maybe for Civ 10 but not for Civ 4. It's like replacing Magellan's Voyage with the Maiden Voyage of the HMS Titanic before the Titanic was even finished being constructed.
 
Why not just title this thread:

"Anti-Americans Unite!"

Nowadays it seems like any excuse is a good excuse to give the States a swift and hard kick square in the balls... and doing so only serves to encourage the inner "Pele" in every non-American...

***goes to put on reinforced jock strap and cup***

Perhaps that can be Civ V's next new wonder:

The Anti-American Proof Jock Strap
 
What crawled up your ass?

Juz becoz they replace 1 wonder that ws originaly American to one that is now being constructed in China its all of a sudden "Anti-Americanism"?

They added Holiwood aswell didnt they? In my opinion there must be a 100 diff structures and stuff that deserve a place for a wonder before Holiwood does.

Whinning idiots need to stfu for once.
 
Hey - native New Yorker here! I'm far from being even close to anti-American, and neither is Civ 4. Like TerraHero just pointed out, for the one Hoover Dam that turned Chinese you now have Hollywood, Broadway, rock&roll, the Statue of Liberty, Mt. Rushmore with the UN, the Manhattan Project, the "Internet," Wall Street, the Pentagon, and the Apollo program still present from Civ3. That's 11 wonders directly from the United States. Out of 40 great and small wonders, that means from the 18 civs, the US claims ownership to over 25%! How's that for anti-American?
 
MRM said:
Would be a bit boring - two dams ...

IMO is the 20th century already massiv overrepresented with wonders - so please not even more modern wonders nobody will remember in 500 years from now ...
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Well one dam could supply power to the 2-3 nearest cities close to it, like Hoover does, and the other could supply the closest 10 or whatever.

No more modern wonders? Oh, you mean like the Eifel Tower, SETI, Internet, etc? Yeah I am sure no one would complain about them at all.

Funny how it's mostly Europeans who are happy with the change, lol.
 
Willem said:
How many Native Americans lost their homes so the Americans could gain the territory in order to build the Hoover Dam? In fact, American is only a country at all because it subjugated all of the local population. Don't be pointing fingers at other nations unless yours are clean as well. Presuming you're an American of course.
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You are joking right?

If not, name -one- single modern country that hasn't taken it's place over the top of some earlier culture, peoples or whatever. It's human nature and history. Even the 'migrants' who wandered over to North America thousands of years ago via the Bering Strait are said to have displaced some people who had been here before them.

Even Canada displaced some of the native people when the European settlers arrived, so get over yourself.
 
Hey, stop making the thread moderator worthy...

I'd agree that the super dam type of Wonder is unusual in that the only ones known outside of their country are
Aswan (for being a disaster)
and
3 Gorges (for being currently in construction and Very big)

That said given that Civ 4 will be released in 2005, 3 Gorges sounds like a good idea.. Although ideally it should go to one of the earliest 'major dam' projects.


Indeed the whole 'Wonder' category for things like dams is complicated. The ideal solution would be to allow all nations to construct Wonders. The first one completed would get the title and benefits that go with 'Great' and the others would be National Wonders. The title of a Great wonder could also change based on the country it was in (Hoover if built by America, Aswan by Egypt, ... Oxford by England, Yale/Harvard by America, etc.)
 
Ozymandous said:
Even Canada displaced some of the native people when the European settlers arrived, so get over yourself.
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If you had kept reading, you would have noticed that I acknowledge this. But I guess you're so caught up on being on your high horse, you're not even interested in being civil.
 
Ozymandous said:
Well one dam could supply power to the 2-3 nearest cities close to it, like Hoover does, and the other could supply the closest 10 or whatever.
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O.K. - but do we really need two ( or three ) dams as an wonder in Civ ? One of them is IMO enough

Ozymandous said:
No more modern wonders? Oh, you mean like the Eifel Tower, SETI, Internet, etc? Yeah I am sure no one would complain about them at all.
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I see it this way. 20th century is less then 2% of the timeframe of 6050 years - so it doesn't need a quarter of all wonders. 2 or 3 modern wonders should be enough, otherwise our present time is overrepresented.
 
ew0054 said:
The Hoover Dam (Boulder Dam) was the first project of its kind. It was a symbol of American pride and workmanship. To think such a project could be undertaken in the early 20th century makes it qualify as a wonder of the world. And they replace it with this? I'm not saying the 3G is bad I'm just saying I don't think it's as deserving of the title "Great Wonder" as the Hoover Dam is.
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I am british, and i agree that the hoover dam is a pinacle of craftsmanship. But this time it didn't make the cut.
 
Drakan said:
Bringing back the SoL is a must, I never quite understood why they took it away. Might be a french gift (a miniature replica is in the seine river in Paris) but it's one hundred per cent american, it represents what every poor immigrant fleeing from poverty-stricken Europe looked up upon entering Long Island, it´s the american dream incarnation.
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Actually, it's a statue of the goddess Ishtar. :)
And as such, quite the opposite of the American dream.
 
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