Tim01: Defiant Diplomats

[Pied Piper]

Just one other thing Tim, if you could tell us the settings you used, even if it was random. I will play it blind but the other players may want to know, especially the AI aggressiveness level.

On another note, Angus and Incense may not be exactly all American fare but it is a good start. I am a glutton for luxury items, at times even more so than strategic resources.

 

[TimBentley]

Barbs: restless
Climate: arid
Temperature: warm
Age: 3 billion
Seed (if anyone cares): 355695175
Opponents: Iroquois, Celts, France, Aztecs, Persia, India, Byzantines, Mongols, Inca, Spain, Vikings

And I'll include the stuff I already knew, just for full information:
AI Aggressiveness: Normal
Cultural conversions on, SGLs on, all that wierd stuff (eg regicide) off, culturally linked starting positions off, respawn off, anything I forgot about normal. And the settings in the first post.

 

[tomasjj]

It would be hard to disagree with choosing start nr. 3. It is a no-brainer.
Also a move sw onto the river.
Awesome start, but then again, on higher levels your neighbours and their whereabouts and agressiveness is more decisive.
JJ

 

[Pied Piper]

Save File

1) I am using MapStat for happiness and trading prompts, nice tool I found recently due to these forums.
2) Units are moving fast right from the start, is something wrong with the save?
3) I wanted to ask if we could consider making peace deals if we get size 1 cities, similar to Louisiana purchase, or say Alaska from the Russians. Just a thought.


4000(01) Worker to cow, Explorer Lewis to hut, get CB and continue North, looks like alot of coast just over all the hills. Settler SW to the Potomac river.
3950(02) Washington settled, start second explorer unit to be named Clark, which will pop hut south of city. Irrigate cow. Lewis heads West young man that he is.
3950(02) Set research to the wheel but allocate no funding, with scouts I hope to establish early contact and trade for first tier techs.
3950(02) May want an early city 3 tiles directly north of Washington to build curraughs.
3900(03) Lewis heads through gap in the Appalachian mountain chain, sees more coast. Also Potomac ends at the mountains, may have to place a city 2 tiles west of Washington.
3850(04) Lewis turns south at the west coast. There may be a land bridge to the north but I doubt it and I want to make contact fast.
3800(05) Lewis slogs through the forest on the other side of the southern Appalachian mountains, only moving 1 tile. Irrigation done, start road.
3750(06) Lewis finds DYES by the coast and the start of the Mississippi river. Also the Appalachians are rather extensive and will intrude on our core area.
3700(07) Clark explorer gets Myst from hut, got to love the Expansionist trait. Also sees the Roanoke river to the south.
3700(07) Lewis trudges through more of the Appalachians. Sees head of Roanoke, I assume. Move worker to BG on the Potomac. Got to love those Industrious workers.
3650(08) Lewis breaks out of the Appalachians and into the forests only to see more mountains. Must be a 3 MYO world.
3650(08) Clark climbs a solitary mountain a the edge of a vast plains region and a tributary of the Roanoke (probably). Set 10% luxury.
3600(09) Clark continues SE to the tree on the river, Lewis heads west across the Mississippi into the Black Hills.
3550(09) Clark enters the hut and makes such a great impression on the natives that they join us as NEW YORK!!! (This never happens for me.)
3550(09) BTW, there is Ivory in the expanded city radius, oh, and the city is on the Roanoke river, and the Atlantic is just outside the ECR.
3550(09) The bad news, 20 turns to grow, entirely in the plains area. Lewis, not to be outdone, gets maps from his native friends.
3500(10) Meet the Byz, they have Alpha, BW and 20 gp. They are up 10 gp plus Pottery and CB, at turn 10!
3500(10) They will trade both techs for Myst, Mas, 47 gp and 4 gpt. I wait. Or get BW+12 for Mas or BW+10 for Myst.
3500(10) With New York we should be able to control the East/West flow of info for quite some time. More mountains for Lewis to climb.
3500(10) Decide to trade Mas for BW +12 gold, I know, but I am a sucker for military techs, and afraid of losing the opportunity. Myst we hold back.
3450(11) Washington radius expands revealing wheat. Clark finds the outlet for the Roanoke, on the WEST coast, looks like a Mexico situation for Byz homeland.
3450(11) I think our first city should be here to lock up this nice Texas region. And he sees a hut on a hill.
3400(12) Volcano erupts in Appalachia. The Innuits in Texas give maps to Clark. Lewis sees that Mississippi is a mighty river.
3400(12) Cant believe the Myst deal is gone already. NUTS! Guess I blew that. Lux to 30%, settler in two turns.
3350(13) Lewis Meets India in the Baja region, which is much bigger than Mexico. Trade Masonry for Alpha + 35 gp.
3350(13) Move worker towards wheat and new city location, find another wheat. Also would rather lose worker before settler.
3300(14) India picks up a tech, now only down 2 from us. New York produces scout, dub him Johnny, head north to screen settler.
3300(14) Clark explores new Byz city that just appeared, Texas may be in trouble. Of course, there are spices here.
3300(14) Lewis heads south instead of continuing west. Settler goes back east for the double wheat. Lux at 0%.
3250(15) Byz gets WC. Johnny gets maps. Looks like East coast terminates quickly. No need to worry about the Byz spearman sneaking past NY.
3250(15) Imperative that Clark get past Byz to find her contacts. Hah! Clark meets Celts. Trade Mas for WC since Byz will anyway, should gift them Alpha/Myst but dont.
3200(16) Johnny finds fish, Clark finds the central american marshlands, Lewis finds another Indian city. Build Boston, Lets make this the pump shall we?
3150(17) Lux to 10%, Washington should produce a settler in 5 instead of 6 with the pop growth.
3150(17) Johnny is going counter clockwise around the outskirts to check for land bridges and huts. Byz spearman on barb patrol by the fish.
3100(18) Johnny finds whales, Clark finds Celt borders interlaced with Byz borders, Lewis continues southwest.
3100(18) Trade Myst/Alpha for 2 Celtic workers which are desperately needed, and Byz would have traded them those techs anyway.
3050(19) Johnny sees Celtic settler SE of Alesia and meets the Aztecs, who have only 10 gold and are short Mas, CB and Alpha.
3050(19) Lewis meets Persia IBT, they are fielding at least 3 military in the Persian desert south of India.
3050(19) NY produces another scout. Marshia heads to Texas for surveillance. Placed worker in Q for NY but take it out. Dont forget!
3000(20) Johnny continues CCW mapping, Marshia monitors Texas, Lewis and Clark are headed south.
3000(20) Everyone is polite except Byz and Persia are annoyed. Boston and NY are building warriors since we have NO military. (Marshia really should have been a Warrior)

Obj1: Build city in Texas to lock down the Ivory. Workers will finish road to facilitate this just as settler is built. (6 Tiles South and 1 SW)
Obj2: Workers should then road incense and other worker connect Boston after developing the BG. City by the Dyes can wait.
Obj3: Start thinking about military, maybe our own research to IW, since there is alot of potential sites for Iron.

 

[tomasjj]

Good work!
And I like the way you write a story out of it. Makes the role-playing so much cooler.
Great that we got that city from a hut!
I think you built a scout too much. But so you said yourself.

On the other hand,
1)I think we should get that settler pump up asap. And not build a settler in Wash before we got a granary. Alternatively we could use Boston as a worker pump.
2)We still need workers. A lot of tiles around Wash, make use of our industriousness.
3) We need more military. This aint monarch, so the AI will be more agressive.
And not forget: We are defiant! Imagine the AI wants all our gold, we have to say no, not having a single mil unit... Man. they would take three cities in a bang. Scary.

4) A city on the coast! Get boats out, meet people, trade those techs we popped, get gold, dominate.

JJ

 

[Pied Piper]

Well go for it tomas, I believe you are up.

I probably should have gone to bed and finished this morning but just one more turn is hard to resist. I apologize if we lose early. Here is a picture of our core area more or less. Site #1 is my top pick for next settler, with #2 as backup. Site #3 is probably outside the core but may be somewhat productive. Site #4 is tempting for dominion over the mountains but is not on a river so the forest next to it is probably best depending upon our city placement in the fog. Building on rivers is even more important since cities and metros get extra shield due to our civ trait.

 

[TimBentley]

Roster:
tomasjj - up
Whomp - on deck
skunk
TimBentley
Pied Piper - just played

1) I am using MapStat for happiness and trading prompts, nice tool I found recently due to these forums.

I would encourage anyone who doesn't have it to get it. CivAssist is good too.

2) Units are moving fast right from the start, is something wrong with the save?

It must have been using the preferences I was using for a different game.

3) I wanted to ask if we could consider making peace deals if we get size 1 cities, similar to Louisiana purchase, or say Alaska from the Russians. Just a thought.

No capturing foreign cities or demanding them in diplomacy.

No getting cities for peace, unfortunately.

A granary in Boston as well as Washington might be a good idea.

 

[Whomp]

Happy WLMLKjrD everyone!! I get the day off !!!!
@ Pied Great job popping those huts!! Lewis and Clark have left quite a mark on American history. I love the story. I have mapstat and will get civassist.
How much time do we have to get the dyes? Going from 2-3 luxs seems pretty powerful. 1,2,4,6,9 Happy faces with markets. I've never planted near a volcano...how far can Mt. St. Helens spew?

 

[TimBentley]

Something's wrong with the link to the save. This one should work: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Tim01_3000_BC.SAV.

how far can Mt. St. Helens spew?

Only the adjacent spaces. So the city couldn't be destroyed, although it could screw some roads.

Does anyone mind if I occasionally change a cities name to places like Grosse Pointe (or Gross Point) or Kankakee (kanakeybe)?

Feel free to do so.

 

[Whomp]

Thanks Tim on the link. Why is it whenever I go into upload8 my computer freezes up?

 

[TimBentley]

I've taken a look at Washington and it seems it could spit out an archer or spearman and a worker every 3 turns (once fully developed). It could produce a warrior, archer/spearman, and a settler every 6 turns, but that wastes more shields. I'll take a look at Boston later.

Edit: Boston could be a 4.5-6.5 4-turn settler factory without using the cow. I'll have to see if there's something better by sharing the cow.

 

[TimBentley]

Washington could produce an archer or spearman (or two warriors) and a worker every three turns at size 5 by using the cow and 4 BGs. The cow could be switched to another BG one of the turns if there's a good reason to. It could also do this at size 6 if an insufficient number of BGs have been mined.

Boston can produce a settler every four turns, and I can't see a reason why using the cow would help (unless the gold exchange helped in some way):
If both wheats are irrigated:
It starts with 6 food in the box
Turn 1(size 4): 1 wheat, 3 BGs (4 food, 6s after corruption)
Turn 2(size 5): 1 wheat, 3 BGs, 1 grassland (4 food, 7s)
Turn 3(size 5): 2 wheats, 3 BGs (6 food, 6s)
Turn 4(size 6): 2 wheats, 3 BGs, 1 grassland (6 food, 7s)

If one wheat is mined:
It starts with 5 food in the box
Turn 1(size 4): 2 wheats, 2 BGs (5 food, 5s)
Turn 2(size 5): 2 wheat, 3 BGs (5 food, 7s)
Turn 3(size 5): 2 wheats, 3 BGs (5 food, 7s)
Turn 4(size 6): 2 wheats, 3 BGs, 1 grassland (5 food, 8s)
One turn it is possible to use a regular grassland instead of a BG to gain one gold. Note Boston requires a border expansion, due either to a temple or another city.

 

[Whomp]

Tim,
Would TomasJJ already have the game and possilby have played already? It seems to me the mined option would be better for Boston if we can still turn settlers out in 4. Pretty powerful in those cities.

 

[Pied Piper]

First of all I promise never to play past 2AM. With that said, I think the problem with my link to the save file is that I used spaces instead of the underscore character. Will avoid that in the future.

As far as changing city names, I am all for it and would have done so, but I didn't know if others would object. If you want to change the name of New York I believe it was actually Clark that went there. We could name the first city by the Dyes after Lewis though.

Since we are going for Diplo victory we should probably favor the Celts, Aztecs and India during trade opportunities to keep these polite civs that way. The Byzantines are the early leader and the closest civ. I expect them to make a demand sometime after 2000 BC,(or earlier if we don't build some warriors soon). So Skunk may have to decline Cleo's advances but I suspect it will be Tim that is the first defiant one and the next guy up will have to fight the war. I may be out of town that day (JK). It may be a bit premature but in the first Byzantian war we should try to destroy the city that controls the spice (and build our own) before making peace. I am so greedy. Persia may also try something but they are tremendously far away beyond India and rough terrain.

Geographically speaking I think we are extremely lucky, we have land (mostly good except for Appalachia) for much of the core area around Washington, and other than Byzantine, who is already somewhat restricted by the position of New York and the desert chokepoint, our worst enemy may be barbarian activity coming out of the Appalachian Mountains. We should be able to settle our core area almost unhindered. Any thoughts on where FP should be?

 

[TimBentley]

Here are a couple possibilities for a coastal city. Either can borrow the wheat from Boston.

 

[Whomp]

Green dot would be my first choice Tim. A whale, forest, occasional wheat and the especially the river.
We have so many visible luxs and in quantity what do we want to do about that? Especially if we go after the spices too. If we have 4 with markets.
Theo? I have feeling we'll being singing "she freakin' hates me soon enough.
I would say the FP would need to be south. The mountains seem to limit a FP out west.

 

[Pied Piper]

Yeah, I meant Theo not Cleo. who can keep all those womens names straight anyway.

I agree that FP may be better in the south instead of west at this time but sites #1 and #3 don't have any forest available to chop down.

I slapped together a little map of place names for those who don't want to read the journals of Lewis and Clark. Also added a few stars for potential city locations. Tried to maximize river utility, stars with blue center are on a river. Placement of New York distorts things from ideal but I am not complaining. Any thoughts guys? Besides the fact I have too much time on my hands right now?

 

[Pied Piper]

Did we want to squeeze in an extra city in the Northeast? We are a little short on land but it is all definitely within our core area.

 

[tomasjj]

Guys, I got it.
Will play tomorrow night CET.

I just wanted a little discussion here first as I feel we needed to consider:

1) City placing.
2) Settler pump.
3) Our lack of any military, especially when we are defiant....
4) Our research whe most huts are gone.

Priorities now then as I see it, please debate

1. Setting up the settler fac.
2. Workers...
3. Army.
4. A coastal city, and curraghs.
5. hooking up insence.

That means granary in boston, barracks in washington.

Any thoughts on our research, army?

As for the costal cities I think we should just place one there now, and concentrate on settling the inland now.. Thats where the indians are

JJ

 

[Pied Piper]

1) For city placing see map above.
2) Settler pump may be easier in Boston, forest chops for Washington are inconvenient for workers to reach. Will probably want a granary in each eventually but I think a barracks is more important to prepare for the early war with Byzantines.
3) For the army I always try to produce every offensive unit only in barracks and we will need at least two barracks fairly soon, but some warriors first please.
4) The first coastal city should be in the northeast but I think a city at site #1 or #2 must be the next priority to define the coming conflict with Byzantines. Site #3 would be a bridge too far.
5) Connecting incense should be the next action for the celtic workers, I almost made it their first action. New York should produce a worker after the warrior it is currently building, since it will grow at that time and then run out of food.

I also agree that displacing the Indian barbarians out of the Appalachians will be a significant achievement, especially if we can hook up dyes before the first war. Those mountains and the badlands west of Texas are almost not worth settling the terrain is so bad. Research after huts will depend on overseas contacts and how many wars are going on.