Time for a new spin-off?

[ColdFever]

the crux of the matter - that of available publishers... especially in the role of investors for that money-burning process that is game development today.

Yes, IMHO especially EA and UBI spoiled the habbits. In the past I have been extremely happy with T2 being publisher for Civ, because they gave us fans exactly what we wanted: Complete versions, no DRM, great ADDONS etc... T2 sold millions of copies by simply making us happy. But now, instead of building on this great success, surprisingly T2 follows EAs/UBIs failures: Incomplete versions, DRM, release date DLC etc etc... T2 could have been smarter than just "Walking with the Dinosaurs".

 

[Schuesseled]

Why are people thinking that lots of DLC means no modding, its in thier best interest to allow users to both download mods and dlc.

 

[Dedrytus]

Of course in my Civ games...

And we do get a complete game. It's not features that we'll see in DLCs, I can almost promise you that. It's extra civs, and perhaps maps and scenarios. Maybe even some kind of special unit. Extra content. If you don't want it don't buy it. It won't affect your game much.

I'm sure you'll still get add ons.

And yes, I think that's great. As you say, options, options, options. As a consumer I want that.

"...where is nothing else to add, but nothing else to..." I do not have to write this. We all know this from Civ IV. And Civ V will be disaster with this definition.

 

[Mark Havel]

A few days ago, I read a thread on this forum about price disparities between Europe, USA and Australia. I came to the realise that the price of the game have absolutely not moved since at least 15 years. Meanwhile, inflation is there, the technical side of our machines are allowing even more sophisticated games and thus requiring even more costly development. But the price has stayed the same standard 50 eurodollars, which means even more copies are to be sold to recoup the investments and allow the development of future games.

I tend to agree that most DLC are overpriced gadgets aimed to make quick money with a few hours of work from the developer. But no one forces me to buy them and so far I've only used those that were given to me (for example, as part of the Digital Collector Edition of Dragon Age or Mass Effect 2) and most of the games using DLC are already feature complete enough so I don't feel especially compelled to buy them.

And to finish my point, the game will still be modable and is said to be even more modable than Civ IV, so I suppose that we'll eventually find some mods to add the missing Civilizations, at the price of particular stuff such as voice-over or specific architecture.

 

[Commander Bello]

And to finish my point, the game will still be modable and is said to be even more modable than Civ IV, so I suppose that we'll eventually find some mods to add the missing Civilizations, at the price of particular stuff such as voice-over or specific architecture.

Technically, the game may be moddable like never before.

Yet, there are legal implications, as all DLC will be protected by copyrights and similar laws.
Which means, that a modder either adresses the main crowd who "only" bought vanille (the incomplete versions), meaning he cannot make use of any art released through DLC or he creates a DLC-based mod, which may only be of interest to the ones who bought exactly the same combination of DLC packages.

In either way, modification can no longer adress the whole fanbase.

Therefore:
Technically Civ5 may be very moddable.
From the legal aspect, I fear such moddability will be very much limited.

 

[grant2004]

Anytime a game company gets to big the people who keep the books take over and the people who care about the game take a back seat. Inevitably this affects the quality of the games comming out of the studio, and most notibly the responsiveness to customer feedback. I'm starting to worry that this is happening to 2k. If Sid, and/or Shaffer were to leave 2k and start a new studio I'd certainly pay more attention to the new studio's releases than I would to 2k's.

 

[Commander Bello]

Anytime a game company gets to big the people who keep the books take over and the people who care about the game take a back seat. Inevitably this affects the quality of the games comming out of the studio, and most notibly the responsiveness to customer feedback. I'm starting to worry that this is happening to 2k. If Sid, and/or Shaffer were to leave 2k and start a new studio I'd certainly pay more attention to the new studio's releases than I would to 2k's.

This.

 

[StittsvilleJame]

No offense, but seriously, who cares how upset you guys are about DLC or Steam, or whetever else is the "moan of the day". Not 2K. Not Firaxis. Not 99% of the fans. Not the mainstream media. Not Sid Meier.

Civ 5 will be released, it will sell well, and in 5 years someone will release another version and make a bunch more money.

 

[Commander Bello]

No offense, but seriously, who cares how upset you guys are about DLC or Steam, or whetever else is the "moan of the day". Not 2K. Not Firaxis. Not 99% of the fans. Not the mainstream media. Not Sid Meier.

Civ 5 will be released, it will sell well, and in 5 years someone will release another version and make a bunch more money.

And guys like you will pay for the game, for the DLC and for the "service" to allow you to play the game.

And I will laugh.

 

[andrewlt]

No offense, but laughing isn't exactly what you've been doing. More like complain. I think every thread I've read in the past month on this forum has complaint posts from you.

 

[Commander Bello]

No offense, but laughing isn't exactly what you've been doing. More like complain. I think every thread I've read in the past month on this forum has complaint posts from you.

Since there is a difference between buying each and everything the publisher tries to sell to you and considering the consequences.

 

[Schuesseled]

And guys like you will pay for the game, for the DLC and for the "service" to allow you to play the game.

And I will laugh.

You don't have to buy dlc if you dont want to, and steam is free. Laugh at what, your over active imagination?

 

[Tylerryan79]

I respect Bello for his position, and that he sticks to it. I may not always agree 100% with what he says, but his hearts in the right place. He's not attacking members here, rather the system and the direction it's heading. If Some people are fine with it, cool. I'd like to see it change. If the industry can't survive without dlc, then let it die.

 

[2K Greg]

I did months of modding for Civ4, but based on the Civ5 version mess and the Civ5 DRM/DLC commercialization, I doubt that I will do much Civ5 modding. Civ4 has been incredibly open, welcoming and inspiring, while Civ5 so far looks rather DRM-tight, complicated and DLC marketing oriented. Civilization always sold great because the devs listened to the fans, but this time marketing seems not to aim at heart of the fans anymore, rather at their wallet.

I hope that you will reconsider your position when the details about modding are announced. Modding in Civ V is more powerful than it ever has been before, and as a modder yourself I think you'll be quite pleasantly surprised by some of the really awesome things Civ V has in store.

They'll just gimp the modding to sell more DLC.

I understand your concern, but this is definitely not the case. A significant amount effort has gone in to making Civ V an awesome platform for modders, and there has been no effort to "gimp" the modding system.

 

[StittsvilleJame]

I hope that you will reconsider your position when the details about modding are announced. Modding in Civ V is more powerful than it ever has been before, and as a modder yourself I think you'll be quite pleasantly surprised by some of the really awesome things Civ V has in store.

Capabilities such as....?
Throw us a bone dude.

 

[Zhahz]

I have to admit to be baffled how people are even applauding to this.
These changes are not to our benefit, but solely to the benefit of the publisher.

Agreed on the greed and equally baffled.

The zero day DLC, the different versions, the insanely priced collector's edition, it's all about milking the crap out of civ and civ players.

Eventually they'll have an expansion pack that includes most of the stuff they're putting out in special editions and DL versions and people will end up paying twice for some stuff, depending on which version they get initially. Milk it babies, milk it.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Technically, the game may be moddable like never before.

Yet, there are legal implications, as all DLC will be protected by copyrights and similar laws. . . .

In either way, modification can no longer address the whole fanbase.

I can see why you have this opinion - and in Civ IV that might have been the case. But there is no reason that it has to be the case in Civ V. The only bonus content that we have heard about are:
1) Map Packs, and
2) Additional Civs.

Now, if the modder chose to build a mod that required any of this content, then, yes, they would only be able to address that part of the fanbase that had that content.
1) If the mod is built on a specific map, the modder has made the decision to limit the pool of users that can use their mod. People who want to use the mod will have to have the map - which, if the mod appeals to them - they probably already do.
2) As for additional civs, it would be entirely feasible to structure the game engine such that it inventoried available civs on launch. If that were the case (and I strongly suspect that this - or something very similar - will be the case), then there is no reason that the presence (or lack thereof) additional civs should prove to be a barrier to mods and modders.

Not even "total conversion" mods. They can simply extract the necessary, un-modded information from the civs as they are loaded (information that is to be changed is not needed). If a given civ (such as Babylon) is not present, it doesn't get inventoried, it doesn't get loaded - it becomes a non-issue.

If the modder is changing the basic information for some or all of the civs, simply tell the inventory process to ignore civs for which there are no changes or give the inventory process a list of civs to include (or ignore)if you are only changing some of them. So this, also becomes a non-issue.

The only time either of these become an issue is when the modder would choose to make it so. If the modder decides "my mod has to have Babylon in order to work", then they have intentionally made the decision to limit the usefulness of their mod. But there is no reason inherent to C/C++ that says that the presence or absence of additional civs has to prevent mods from working.

 

[arstal]

If enough DLC is released, this will become a nightmare for modders.

And since the FFH2 team is doing their own thing now, I can't see the modding being as good as Civ IV by any stretch.

 

[Commander Bello]

I hope that you will reconsider your position when the details about modding are announced. Modding in Civ V is more powerful than it ever has been before, and as a modder yourself I think you'll be quite pleasantly surprised by some of the really awesome things Civ V has in store.

I understand that you are referring to the technical situation, and I will assume that you're right.
Yet, as I have pointed out above and will do so again below, there is the legal situation too, and the question in which way DLC will conflict or not with modding has been raised weeks before already.

As you have been silent on this matter, at the moment I have every reason to assume that there will be such legal implications which will prohibit making use of the technical possibilities.
Therefore, I think that your statement is not really accurate.

I can see why you have this opinion - and in Civ IV that might have been the case. But there is no reason that it has to be the case in Civ V. (snip)
2) As for additional civs, it would be entirely feasible to structure the game engine such that it inventoried available civs on launch. If that were the case (and I strongly suspect that this - or something very similar - will be the case), then there is no reason that the presence (or lack thereof) additional civs should prove to be a barrier to mods and modders.

My concern is the following:
Any graphics which come with a certain civilization are under copyright.
So, the (assumed) Babylonian Bowman cannot be taken over in any mod, since that would mean to distribute it to people who may have not bought the deluxe versions.

Yet, even the animation of that Bowman is copyrighted (assuming, there would be a different animation from the 'standard' Archer). So, even re-skinning it and distributing it will not be allowed.
More obvious it becomes when talking about Nebuchadnezar. His graphics (face, body language, background) are copyrighted. Painting a different moustache to him and then distributing will not be allowed.
Same will go then with the (assumed) Babylonian Zikkurat...

All these things are - so I assume from the fact that we have to pay for them and that therefore they are regarded as 'valuable' intellectual property - bound to copyrights and cannot legally be included into a modification and by this being distributed.

Now one could say "So what?".
Yet, the experience from Civ4 tells us that there are many new (fan-created) civilizations which refer to and are based on the standard civilization, graphic-wise.
It is unlikely that this for Civ5 will be allowed - at latest, when DLC comes into play.

And this actually contradicts the technical options, which I don't deny.

It is like buying a Porsche in the US: you can run it at 280 km/h (you've just bought the small engine ), but you're not allowed to do so and it might result in major problems for you, if you nevertheless do so.

 

[GoGerbilGo!]

Now one could say "So what?".
Yet, the experience from Civ4 tells us that there are many new (fan-created) civilizations which refer to and are based on the standard civilization, graphic-wise.
It is unlikely that this for Civ5 will be allowed - at latest, when DLC comes into play.

Commander Bello, I think everyone understands your concern. Ultimately, I think DLC simply means that modders must adopt the practice of ignoring DLC material. All mods must use regular game material or user generated ones. Official Babylon art must be ignored unless they become part of an expansion pack or become available for free. There is no reason why anyone must use DLC art.