Time to sue some cops

Interesting that no one has brought up Aaron Hernandez. The nfl would be reasonably wary of hiring someone close to a murder in the wake of that.
 
MobBoss said:
You're thinking of the Patriots. :lol:
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While the Patriots have the one chart topping guy in their history, for number of potential felons in the locker room it is usually hard to top the Cowboys. ;)
 
Timsup2nothin said:
And what the cops want, the cops get. If it ruins your life, tough. If they could get what they want and not ruin your life at the same time through a little compromise, tough, they have no interest in compromise or the slightest concern about ruining lives. Ruining lives is what they have chosen to do for a living.
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Why don't you address MobBoss's entire post instead of taking a little snippet from it? It seems like the fact that police wanted him for questioning had nothing at all to do with his losing out on more money and there were just other issues with him that cropped up at the same time. Here's the part I would be delighted to hear your response to:

MobBoss said:
Rather, I would hold the NFL and Collins himself to blame for the whole thing. Apparently Collins requested to be removed from the draft so that he could be considered in the supplemental draft, but the NFL denied his request. Another part of the problem was Collins agent stated prior to the draft if he got drafted in round 4 or later, he would refuse to sign with the team that drafted him. Any teams that were actually interested in drafting him lost interest as soon as that was stated, so him going undrafted is also part of his own fault. So what are the teams supposed to do with him saying something like that?
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So you don't think the NFL forcing him to stay in the regular draft and the statements made by his agent had anything to do with his perceived lower worth by NFL teams? In fact, in my own research on the matter, I cannot find a single NFL team that officially stated Collins's questioning by police as a reason for not drafting him or offering him less money. So until you can provide something that shows the contrary, it really does seem like you are making baseless assumptions based on your anti-cop bias. Which is fine of course, but at least admit that your belief of what occurred is just that, a belief.

EDIT: As I read more and more about this situation, it seems as though Collins's agent is to blame for his losing money. It was his agent that made the decision for him to not be physically present at the draft, his agent that tried to get him into the supplementary draft despite NFL rules being clear that he could not do that, his agent that made the statement of "draft him in the second or third round, or don't draft him at all." So it sounds like Collins needs to ditch this fool of an agent and get a more professional person to represent his interests.
 
As has already been pointed out, he got pretty much the same deal as a free agent that he would have gotten as a late round draft pick...and got to choose what team to get the deal from. Once he was dropped from the first three rounds he had no reason to want to be drafted.

As to finding an NFL team that says "this is why we didn't draft him"...I'm not particularly interested in finding evidence in the absence of an alternative theory. If anyone wants to say that the guy was rated as a first round pick on pretty much every mock draft in the country and didn't get drafted, and in a totally amazing coincidence he also got perp walked through the media right before the draft, but of course these are unrelated events, I will not argue with them.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
As has already been pointed out, he got pretty much the same deal as a free agent that he would have gotten as a late round draft pick...and got to choose what team to get the deal from. Once he was dropped from the first three rounds he had no reason to want to be drafted.

As to finding an NFL team that says "this is why we didn't draft him"...I'm not particularly interested in finding evidence in the absence of an alternative theory. If anyone wants to say that the guy was rated as a first round pick on pretty much every mock draft in the country and didn't get drafted, and in a totally amazing coincidence he also got perp walked through the media right before the draft, but of course these are unrelated events, I will not argue with them.
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Since when does 'he is not a suspect' equate with being 'perp-walked'? :confused:

But in saying that I guess you've changed your stance from blaming the police to now blaming the media for reporting news?
 
MobBoss said:
Since when does 'he is not a suspect' equate with being 'perp-walked'? :confused:

But in saying that I guess you've changed your stance from blaming the police to now blaming the media for reporting news?
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How exactly does "he is not a suspect" become news? I'm in the midst of fighting about a "local internet news source" that is basically a facebook maven operating under a newspaper like name and serving as a public relations arm for the local sheriff's department. Stuff that any self respecting journalist would at least question she just puts on blast for them.

Do you really think the "inside source" told the media "Yeah, we want to talk to the ex boyfriend who is out of town right now, though he is not a suspect"? Or is "This guy, here's his name, seems to think that because he's an NFL prospect (yes, really, first round!) he doesn't have to come in and answer questions," probably closer to the mark...all this setting aside that the inside source is breaking the rules in the first place no matter what he says to the media.

Or are you suggesting that "guys we want to talk to" should be public record?
 
Timsup2nothin said:
How exactly does "he is not a suspect" become news? I'm in the midst of fighting about a "local internet news source" that is basically a facebook maven operating under a newspaper like name and serving as a public relations arm for the local sheriff's department. Stuff that any self respecting journalist would at least question she just puts on blast for them.

Do you really think the "inside source" told the media "Yeah, we want to talk to the ex boyfriend who is out of town right now, though he is not a suspect"? Or is "This guy, here's his name, seems to think that because he's an NFL prospect (yes, really, first round!) he doesn't have to come in and answer questions," probably closer to the mark...all this setting aside that the inside source is breaking the rules in the first place no matter what he says to the media.

Or are you suggesting that "guys we want to talk to" should be public record?
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Well, if you actually read up on the matter, you will find that it was actually his agent that created all the media hype around the police wanting to question him by pulling him from being physically present at the draft to "consult with the agency's lawyers and private investigators." His agent then drew even more media attention by making the ridiculous statements that he made about not drafting Collins past the second or third round and begging the NFL to let Collins enter the supplementary draft instead, despite NFL rules clearly stating that was not allowed.

I'm telling you, as more and more information comes out about this, it looks more and more like it was Collins's own agent that screwed him out of a big contract. Not the police and not the media. So if Collins should be suing anyone, he should sue that seemingly incompetent agent he has for grossly mismanaging the situation.

Now, on to the "inside source" for the police that blabbed to the media: While I do not feel Collins should have the right to sue the department over this source's actions, I do feel the department should make every effort to find out who it is and terminate his/her employment. Collins should then have the right to file a lawsuit against that individual as well as his agent. Police should not be discussing details of an ongoing investigation with the media. I know a lot of people would disagree with what I am about to say, but "the people" don't have a right to know such information until the investigation is officially concluded. It is on that basis that I believe the inside source should be rooted out and punished in the manner I outlined above.
 
Commodore said:
Well, if you actually read up on the matter, you will find that it was actually his agent that created all the media hype around the police wanting to question him by pulling him from being physically present at the draft to "consult with the agency's lawyers and private investigators." His agent then drew even more media attention by making the ridiculous statements that he made about not drafting Collins past the second or third round and begging the NFL to let Collins enter the supplementary draft instead, despite NFL rules clearly stating that was not allowed.

I'm telling you, as more and more information comes out about this, it looks more and more like it was Collins's own agent that screwed him out of a big contract. Not the police and not the media. So if Collins should be suing anyone, he should sue that seemingly incompetent agent he has for grossly mismanaging the situation.

Now, on to the "inside source" for the police that blabbed to the media: While I do not feel Collins should have the right to sue the department over this source's actions, I do feel the department should make every effort to find out who it is and terminate his/her employment. Collins should then have the right to file a lawsuit against that individual as well as his agent. Police should not be discussing details of an ongoing investigation with the media. I know a lot of people would disagree with what I am about to say, but "the people" don't have a right to know such information until the investigation is officially concluded. It is on that basis that I believe the inside source should be rooted out and punished in the manner I outlined above.
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And the grass in my lawn should grow to a uniform height and stop...but it doesn't. That's kind of what this thread is about. The police use the media as a weapon against people they think are guilty all the time. Then they use it against people who they don't even think are guilty of anything because, well, why not? And for the most part people just have to put up with it because "they're probably guilty of something" or they just really weren't hurt bad enough to make it worth doing anything about (I mean, losing that minimum wage job might be a huge deal when it comes to feeding your family, but it isn't like you can afford a lawyer to sue over it).

But this is a rare opportunity. This guy lost big money over the cops just doing what they normally do to people. They should get it busted off for it, just because most times they do get away with it, if nothing else.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
And the grass in my lawn should grow to a uniform height and stop...but it doesn't. That's kind of what this thread is about. The police use the media as a weapon against people they think are guilty all the time. Then they use it against people who they don't even think are guilty of anything because, well, why not? And for the most part people just have to put up with it because "they're probably guilty of something" or they just really weren't hurt bad enough to make it worth doing anything about (I mean, losing that minimum wage job might be a huge deal when it comes to feeding your family, but it isn't like you can afford a lawyer to sue over it).

But this is a rare opportunity. This guy lost big money over the cops just doing what they normally do to people. They should get it busted off for it, just because most times they do get away with it, if nothing else.
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But there is absolutely zero indication at this point that this "inside source" was acting under orders from their superiors in the department. For all we know, this was just some loud-mouth officer that couldn't keep their mouth shut about a case. Now, if that is the case, then the cop should be held responsible. If evidence comes to light that shows the department ordered the officer to leak the info to the media, then you might have a case for bringing civil action against the department.

You are also still ignoring the fact that it was the actions of his agent that can be directly attributed to his "draft stock" falling as much as it did. You have yourself so worked up in a frothy anti-cop rage that you are failing to see who really screwed Collins over in this situation.
 
Commodore said:
But there is absolutely zero indication at this point that this "inside source" was acting under orders from their superiors in the department. For all we know, this was just some loud-mouth officer that couldn't keep their mouth shut about a case. Now, if that is the case, then the cop should be held responsible. If evidence comes to light that shows the department ordered the officer to leak the info to the media, then you might have a case for bringing civil action against the department.

You are also still ignoring the fact that it was the actions of his agent that can be directly attributed to his "draft stock" falling as much as it did. You have yourself so worked up in a frothy anti-cop rage that you are failing to see who really screwed Collins over in this situation.
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JR already pointed out that once a guy gets past the third round if he has the talent to get a maxed out free agent contract he's just as well off and better. So once he was going past the third round his agent's best move is to keep him from getting drafted at all...which he did.

As to "prove it was ordered by the department"...it probably wasn't. Don't let my usual hatred of cops lead you to not believe that there was no reason to order it. This is just standard procedure. Informing the media "puts on the heat," so even though they don't order it the police brass certainly don't have any inclination to stop it. The prosecutor loves it because before an investigation even gets rolling the jury is reading the cops' side of the case in the papers uncontested. The only people it hurts are the citizens and no one gives a happy rip about them being harmed.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
How exactly does "he is not a suspect" become news?
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Easy. He was being carefully tracked by media due to the fact he was going to be a top draft pick. This isn't any different than when media reports some fairly famous player gets pulled over for a ticket, gets tossed out of a bar, or fires his agent.

Again, this happened less than a week prior to the draft. Pretty much every player in the draft were being measured, commented on, speculated as to future performance, etc.

Do you really think the "inside source" told the media "Yeah, we want to talk to the ex boyfriend who is out of town right now, though he is not a suspect"? Or is "This guy, here's his name, seems to think that because he's an NFL prospect (yes, really, first round!) he doesn't have to come in and answer questions," probably closer to the mark...all this setting aside that the inside source is breaking the rules in the first place no matter what he says to the media.

Or are you suggesting that "guys we want to talk to" should be public record?
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Actually, you seem to forget that it was Collins own attorney that did the talking to the media about it.

And yes, everything the police does should be a public record. It is where I live.

Timsup2nothin said:
But this is a rare opportunity. This guy lost big money over the cops just doing what they normally do to people. They should get it busted off for it, just because most times they do get away with it, if nothing else.
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The police were simply doing their job. It's ROUTINE to talk to someone like Collins when a person gets murdered. And they were clear from the beginning they simply wanted to talk to him and that he was not a suspect. The NFL didn't care.

Or do you not want police to investigate murders? :confused:
 
How long are contracts in the 4-7 rounds? A 1 year FA deal where you can hit open market at top value is probably worth more than any multi-year draft contract below round 3, rookie draft salaries fall off really hard in the mid-late rounds (even though they make 10x more per year than what many people make still).

If he can command 1st round or better value on the open market after this season (and isn't injured), his career income will probably trash what he'd have received as a 4-7 round selection if the projection of him being a strong player at his position is accurate, so from a strategy perspective that might be sound.

It still doesn't explain why a 1st round grade talent wasn't drafted given the information we have. Teams drafted players with confirmed wrongdoing (including actions that if repeated will get them long suspensions and kill their expected value, see Josh Gordon as an example of what can happen) in the first 2 rounds this year.

I agree that leaking information on ongoing investigations is the kind of thing that should be losing people their jobs (though I don't think that's what happened in this case), but I'm still scratching my head over how his agent and NFL teams themselves handled this. The possibility of Collins coming up as guilty (or even a person of interest) was pretty remote. Did he have some other history I didn't know about/couldn't find? If he's a true first round grade I'd have stolen him 2nd/3rd round if nobody else was touching that. 1st round value especially in the 3rd is hard to get, why pass that up on someone who is a very low risk factor? I don't get it.
 
TheMeInTeam said:
How long are contracts in the 4-7 rounds? A 1 year FA deal where you can hit open market at top value is probably worth more than any multi-year draft contract below round 3, rookie draft salaries fall off really hard in the mid-late rounds (even though they make 10x more per year than what many people make still).
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Anyone drafted after round one gets a three year deal with an option on the fourth year...which is pretty much a team discretion option. He took a three year maximum allowed for an undrafted free agent deal instead. So he will hit free agency one year sooner after making money comparable to about a fifth round pick contract.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
Anyone drafted after round one gets a three year deal with an option on the fourth year...which is pretty much a team discretion option. He took a three year maximum allowed for an undrafted free agent deal instead. So he will hit free agency one year sooner after making money comparable to about a fifth round pick contract.
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Okay I didn't realize he signed a multi-year contract. I guess that's okay-ish if he couldn't get drafted, but it still doesn't explain the NFL-sided aspect of this oddity. Every drafted player is a risk without exception, because you can lose that investment to injury or any random fluke. From the information I've found on Collins, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe his risk factor is materially higher than that of your typical 1-3 rounder. Essentially, to me it seems that any team picking round 3 that needed his position and passed on him is idiotic, but that would make all 32 teams idiotic.

Did they know something we don't? I find it hard to believe. Sometimes the NFL really is globally stupid/backwards on average (for a good example, look how often teams punt the ball on 4th and short, which is actually throwing away win probability in a majority of cases despite that most teams do it almost every time). It feels like this is one of those times; unless Collins was already on record for smoking pot like 3x over or some such there is simply no reason to slot him down based on the OP case. If that was the sole reasoning GMs passed on him I will flat out assert that every NFL GM did his/her best "sheeple" impression to the detriment of their team.
 
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