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TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by tjs282, Mar 24, 2017.

  1. Elephantium

    Elephantium Peanuts for everyone!

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    I'm fine with making embassies; we just want to make sure we have enough gold left over to fund research!

    I usually revolt as soon as Republic comes in; IIRC it saves half a turn of anarchy (we still lose 2+ turns of production, but we only lose 1+ turns of worker efficiency).

    OTOH, the settler trick sounds nice.

    I agree with a Worker from Bergen. One from Trondheim would be fine, too, if your build order is Archer->Worker.

    Alliance: I don't care about making MAs. We don't need them at this point.

    Carthage: I don't recall where we met them. :blush: Probably a passing warrior saw East Curragh.
     
  2. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Heidelberg
    Pre-flight:
    Raise science to 100% and change MM to get 22bpt.
    Switch Copenhagen to Barracks.
    Get Masonry, Wheel and 50g from Carthage for CoL.
    Get 30g from Aztecia for the Wheel.
    Get 14g from Russia for Writing. (We will need to gift them into the middle age later anyway, so might as well get something for our techs... As there is no way they can finish Philo in 3 turns, we can safely sell Writing. They are the only ones, who don't have it yet, so they'll get it soon anyway.)

    Establish embassy in Moscow:
    Moscow_1500BC.png

    Only the AI can be so stupid... Anyway, instead of "annoyed" they are now "polite". Makes me fell much safer.
    The Russians don't have contact with Arabia?!? So we can't sign a military alliance.

    Battle of Trondheim:
    Implementing "option 3". First Archer wins 3/3, second Archer wins and promotes to veteran (3/4), the hill Archer wins 3/4.
    That was easy... All problems solved for the moment, so I switch Trondheim to a Spearman.
    battle_field_1500BC.png

    And also establishing an embassy in Amsterdam:
    Amsterdam_1500BC.png

    Do you see all this useless irrigation? Only the AI can be so stupid...
    The Dutch are willing to join an alliance against Arabia, if we toss in Mysticism and CoL. But we don't need it at the moment.


    Turn 61 (1475BC):
    Excellent: due to the road to Copenhagen now finished, the corruption is reduced, and the 4th commerce is no longer corrupted! So we actually made 23 beakers interturn. I won't need the scientist after all...

    Another trade option popped up: Russia now has 26g. I decide to sell them Mysticism.
    And Arabia is now willing to talk. They have Horseback Riding and Polytheism.

    Turn 62 (1450BC):
    Trondheim: Spearman -> Worker
    A Spear/Archer pair now marches towards the southern Arabian Warrior, who fortified outside our borders last turn.
    Our second Curragh has met the first barb galley.

    Bergen switches to the roaded BG, dropping science to 22bpt, which is enough for the 44 beakers we have left, while finishing the Granary in 3 turns.

    Turn 63 (1425BC):
    Out Curragh barely survived with 1/3, and already the next barb galley comes into sight:
    barb_galley_1425BC.png
    I decide to switch over to that other land mass, hopefully shaking it off.

    Another Warrior walks right before the feet of our watching Archers. We win 3/4.
    arabian_front_1425BC.png

    Turn 64 (1400BC):
    Philosophy finishes -- and we get Republic as freebee! Set research to Literature.
    Normally I would now revolt interturn, because as Elephantium already pointed out, it saves half a turn of anarchy (current turn already counts as anarchy, but commerce of that turn has already been collected), but in this case I first want that worker to finish, so I wait until the end of the turn.

    The Russians start the Oracle.

    Trondheim: Worker -> Courthouse (placeholder for a Library, but we can still change it after anarchy)

    Another Arabian Warrior approaches from the West. In the south our Archer kills the Warrior with 2/3

    The Russians have founded by our Wheat! Well, saves us one settler... But we'll have to wait with taking that town, till after we got their freebee tech.
    Yekaterinburg_1400BC.png

    I sell Carthage Philosophy for 66g and then open an embassy:
    Carthage_1400BC.png

    Don't think we can expect much of them... So we'll have to send a Worker to Amsterdam to build 3 mines for the Dutch, and then Amsterdam can build the Lighthouse for us in 24 turns.

    Carthage indeed has contact to Arabia.

    Now I revolt: we get 3 turns of anarchy!

    Turn 65 (1375BC):
    We kill another Arabian Warrior at 4/4.
    In the south a barb horseman appears :( I retreat the wounded Archer and cover it with the Spearman. (Good that we have it...)
    Worker begins to chop furs forest. (We'll irrigate that tile and the two BGs to the left and right for +5gpt.)
    Carthage now has Horseback Riding.

    Turn 66 (1350BC):
    Interturn the Aztecs contact us and demand Philosophy. They are definitely on a different continent (we can't sell Workers to them), so I tell them to take their empty threats elsewhere... They declare! Thanks to that, we can now turn Trondheim's scientist back into a farmer and let Trondheim grow to 5 again.

    Turn 67 (1325BC):
    The barb horse now attacks our fortified Spearman (didn't attack last turn, when he was unfortified?! Ah, yes: it was not on the "axis of evil" then...) and promotes him to 4/4. Our second Curragh is also attacked by a barb galley and goes down to 1/3. (The other one is still being tailed by that other barb galley -- good that we are seafaring.)

    We are now a Republic!
    Amsterdam finishes the Colossus and starts the Pyramids right away. Let's hope that Tenochtitlan finishes the Pyramids before them, then Amsterdam might cascade into the Lighthouse...

    The Arabs have settled Kufah right on the Isthmus. Guess we can attack them there soon with a couple of Archers.
    Unit upkeep is quite high, so I decide to switch Trondheim to a Settler.

    Turn 68 (1300BC):
    Lots of new trade options now: Arabia and Carthage know Map Making, Horseback Riding and Polytheism.
    I sell Carthage Republic for these three techs, 18g, RoP and an alliance against Arabia.

    Bergen: Granary -> Settler (We need to do something for our unit upkeep.)

    Turn 69 (1275BC):
    Interturn two barb horses promote our Spearman to elite.
    We finally meet the Ottomans. They are so backwards...
    I sell them Alphabet for 65g and open an embassy for 59g:
    Istanbul_1275BC.png

    Building settlers at size 1, that explains why they are so backwards...

    Turn 70 (1250BC):
    The Spear/Archer pair can finally continue its march towards the southern barb camp. The barb galley following us on the heels forces our Curragh to retreat into Aztecan territory: going north along that unexplored shore it would have been killed next turn.
    I switch Copenhagen from Barracks to a Harbor. If we get a vet Galley out, we can explore the remaining gaps and find the last missing nation.

    Our empire:
    empire_1250BC.png

    The Trondheim Settler can go to yellow, the Bergen Settler can go to blue (a road is in preparation). This will bring a third BG into Bergen's BFC, so that we can get it to +5fpt as well.

    Trondheim should build a Worker next, and then the two of them can irrigate the three tiles marked red in 6 turns -- finally making our Settler Factory operational.
    Bergen already has one irrigation and still needs the two tiles marked orange getting irrigated.

    Carthage is at tech parity with us, Arabia is missing the Republic, all the rest is between 6 to 8 technologies behind... (We gained 7 techs in these 10 turns.)

    Pay attention to when the Pyramids finish: we want to gift Map Making to the Dutch precisely at that moment, not earlier, because then they might start the Lighthouse from scratch in that crap town of theirs (their only other coastal town).
     

    Attached Files:

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  3. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Chieftain

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    World map:

    world_map_1250BC.png

    We are on one continent with the Dutch, Russia, Arabia and Carthage. The Aztecs and the Ottomans are on a different continent. (You can test this as follows: if you can sell a Worker to them, they are on the same continent, if not, then not. For trading Workers, the two nations involved need to have at least one town on the same landmass.)
    One nation is still missing. Could be between Carthage and Arabia, or somewhere to the north of our continent.

    I did not scout the Dutch and Russian territory, as we have only very few units, which should be kept at home to fight off the occasional Arabian Warrior and defend the core in case of a Russian or Dutch sneak attack. But as soon as we can spare a unit, we need to scout those black areas on our home continent!
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
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  4. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    Nice work, Lanzelot!

    Alternatively, we could engage in a little pointy-stick research, fight them for a bit, and grab their freebee tech in the peace treaty. :mischief:
     
  5. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    Although I haven't looked at F10 to check who the last civ is, I can tell from the fact that Carthage is Bright Red that someone is using their normal secondary color, Dark Red, which means that last civ must be either the Japanese or the Byzantines.
     
  6. robbus

    robbus Chieftain

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    Q1: Why did you sell all those techs when you did? Why not sooner or later?

    Q2: why build a courthouse (placeholder for library?) ? Why not start library?

    Q3The Russians have founded by our Wheat! Well, saves us one settler... But we'll have to wait with taking that town, till after we got their freebee tech.
    What freebie tech?

    Q4 rationale behind selling philo to carthage at that time?

    On monarch I traded minimally especially techs! I see the benefit of trades but am still struggling with timing and price (civ2assist helps a lot with price/value comparison)

    Great turnset lanzelot. Great vision too.

    I guess I am up..... YIKES!
     
  7. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    2. We dont have Literature yet so cant do a Library, but by doing a courthouse as a pre-build, its like building a library just earlier before the tech is even researched.

    3. Russia is Scientific. As with all Scientific civs, they get a free tech at the start of every era.

    4. We already got the free tech bonus from Philosophy, so there is no harm in selling it, since only the first person to research gets the bonus.
     
  8. robbus

    robbus Chieftain

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    q2 I forgot that we were still on Lit research...(lame question from me)...

    So for q1 and 4 you basically sell/trade techs as you get them? I would hold back on gunpowder for example because would rather build musketman long before my rivals...

    q5 How do you know who has contact with who?
     
  9. Elephantium

    Elephantium Peanuts for everyone!

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    Basically sell techs when it's worthwhile. If there's a rich AI that will pay you 1000 gold for something, WOOHOO!

    ... if there's a bunch of AIs that can only pony up 10-20 gold each for Medieval techs, ugh.

    Knowing who has contact with who: With the Embassy, you can sign Military Alliances with other civs, but only against civs that you both know. So if it's not an option to sign MA with Russia vs. Arabia, then those two don't know each other yet.
     
  10. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    Alas, that's usually all you can get for any techs before the late Medieval Age, when a few of the strong AI's finally start stockpiling some gold and have actual GPT's to trade.

    Usually, before then, I only trade techs for other techs, though I'll occasionally sell techs if some AI has an unusually high amount of money, or I'm broke and there's some really backwards AI I can sell some really old techs I don't care about.
     
  11. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I'm not disagreeing with you for this level and map size. However, I assure you that you can get more money with some other map sizes and difficulties.
     
  12. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Chieftain

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    I sell, if I can get a bit of money for a tech they'll soon have anyway, or if they have another tech. But while doing so, I check that they can't sell it on to a third party (in that case I either sell to that third party as well, or I also sell to the second party, what the third party could offer them, which also prevents the deal...)

    I also look for two-fers, but usually this is possible only in the early stages of a game, or on higher difficulty levels (Deity and up). In this game here, we are already tech leader by now, and the AI will not be able to catch up anymore, so I don't think another two-fer is possible here.

    Regarding AI-to-AI contacts: F4 also shows them directly, if you click on the leader head of a civ with whom you have an embassy. In this case, if you click on Russia, it shows a blue line to the Netherlands, but to none of the other civs yet.

    So anyway: just take a look at the save and then post an action plan of things you think need to be done during the next 10 turns. It won't be difficult "with a little help from your friends" (as Ringo said)...!
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017 at 1:22 PM
  13. robbus

    robbus Chieftain

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    I am paying attention to all this and I know I am up now.

    I am working on a strategy based on lanzelot.

    cursory view is that Copenhagen builds Curragh then barracks.

    I am uncomfortable with new towns defended by warrior only. I usuLLY BUILD spearman to accompany settler.

    We are expanding east, why not northwest?

    The best tiles seem to be east, but the territory is west.

    The black hole NW of Russia is where our final opponent is. So what?

    I am in favor of pumping out barracks in copenhagen then vet units to pound our future enemies. Food and experience is not a problem.

    BTW do I only have 10 turns to mess this up? (total sarcasm)

    I will post my 10 turns b4 4-24

    PLEEEEZ coach me
     
  14. Elephantium

    Elephantium Peanuts for everyone!

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    That build plan sounds good for Copenhagen. Why not expand NW? Simple, take the best town sites ASAP and if the AI (really AS) take our next site? Hey, that's why we build Barracks :hammer:

    In general we don't need spearmen in every town-we'll see any "sneak attacks" coming from the way the AS waltzes into our territory.

    Keep exploring-we'll find that last opponent eventually.

    You won't go wrong if you check the cities each turn to make sure they're happy. You'll see a city grow on turns 2, 3, 4, and 7-maybe sooner if any irrigation completes in the next 2 turns or so.

    Go get 'em! :hammer:
     
  15. Speedbird 95

    Speedbird 95 Chieftain

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    I have been away from my computer & am just starting to catch up with this thread. Here are my first impressions:

    (1) Trondheim is set to produce a settler in 1 turn & grow in 2 turns. I would consider switching Trondheim from working the river furs to work the roaded grassland in the NE for the next 2 turns, which would delay the settler by 1 turn & it would be at size 4 instead of size 3 when the settler is built.

    (2) I would suggest building a barracks at the new city site of "blue" and specialize in building military there. "Blue" will be connected to our road system and is closer to any future military action than Copenhagen. I would prefer Copenhagen to build a library and a market because it has low corruption. Also it can build the harbor that it has already started, and Copenhagen can specialize in building galleys.

    (3) Lanzelot recommended "yellow" in the SW as the next city site, for reasons which are unclear to me. I would consider settling on one of the coastal forest squares near the whales in the west (I am not sure which one), and building a barracks there and specializing in military units. "Whales" will be closer to the action than "yellow".

    (4) Our archer force on the hill is now underpowered, because the spearman & archer force are hunting barbarians

    (5) Take a look at the diplomacy screen !!
    Spoiler :

    Diplomacy trial offer 1250 BC.jpg


    Consider, what are our strategic objectives with our alliance against Arabia ?

    (1) We want Kufah so our galleys will have access to the north coast of our continent
    (2) We want war happiness, or at least no war weariness
    (3) We want Arabia to send us some target practice to train our archers
    (4) We want Carthage to waste an early golden age
    (5) We don't want Carthage to destroy the Arabians completely, otherwise Carthage would become too strong & they would send us some nasty Numidians.

    I was expecting Carthage to slowly beat up the Arabians until the Arabians become desperate enough to give us Kufah... but I wasn't expecting the opportunity to happen now!
    Kufah will grow sometime & then the Arabians won't like to give it away so quickly.

    Does the team think we should take this deal now or later? Is it worth annoying the Carthaginians by breaking our alliance before 20 turns are up? Is it worth giving up our target practice?
     
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  16. Speedbird 95

    Speedbird 95 Chieftain

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    How to win back our wheat fields:

    Spoiler :

    NE Settlement Plan 1250BC.jpg

    ...build libraries

    ... and build temples :crazyeye:
     
  17. tjs282

    tjs282 Mint Spy

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    I hope you're joking...? Because culture-flipping is more dependent on total culture per civ than individual town BFCs (thus spake Justanick), and even then is still an unreliable means of gathering up enemy cities, unless actually playing for a Culture-win (which we aren't).

    So on the whole, I think I'd rather wait for it to hit Pop2 (shouldn't take long), and capture it with an Archer or 3 (or Horsemen, now we can build them). Then grow it up fast (and maybe rush-build a Lib, if we have the gold), so that if it flips back to Cathy later, we can get it back without it auto-razing.

    Oh yeah, I'm back, by the way. Took a little while for me to read through all that discussion from the last week :thumbsup: but I think I'm up to speed now. Which is not to say that I'm thinking of taking the next turns instead of Robbus (you don't get off that easy!). You've made your plan, had it critiqued, and knowing Lanzelot, he's left you a strong save, so the probability of your screwing things up is minimal. (And even if it happens, we'll forgive you.)

    I'd also like to cast my vote in favour of Elephantium's dotmap (since it was nearly identical to mine!) ;) and Lanzelot's imminent settlement plan. (I'm guessing yellow-dot precisely because it's further away from the action -- and also has more flatland tiles immediately usable. The prospective whale-city to the west of Trondheim is a good longer-term goal, but it will need a lot of chopping/ expensive rushing to make it useful, which is probably not something we want to do in the middle of a hot warzone).

    But so long as Abu's aggression continues to make our war-like people happy, I don't think we need to think about making peace with him any time soon -- not unless Something Bad happens.
     
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  18. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    A library and a temple costs you 140 shields altogether. 140 shields costs the same as a barracks and 6 archers, or a barracks and 4 swords. Two libraries and two temples costs you 280 shields. That makes for a barracks and 13 archers, or a barracks and 8 swords and an archer.
     
  19. Elephantium

    Elephantium Peanuts for everyone!

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    Personally, I'd rather have the 13 archers, especially in this kind of warmongering game. Waiting for culture flips...PAH! That could easily take half the game.
     
  20. choxorn

    choxorn Watermelon Headcrab

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    A culture flip can take one city. 13 Archers can take many cities.
     

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