TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

[Lanzelot]

Hi, I would be willing to take toxicman's place, if you can wait another day. (I'll be busy tonight, so I can play my 20T start only tomorrow night.)

A few comments:

1. I think that the first 50 turns or so are the most important of the game, especially on higher difficulty levels. So don't say "there is not much happening in the first turnsets anyway"... Each worker assignement, each tile allocation and each build project needs to be carefully planned at that early stage, because 1-2 wasted shields, coins or bushels of grain, is not just "1-2" -- it's 20-30% of your empire's production! And this then extrapolates exponentially for the rest of the game.
2. I want to emphasize what tjs282 said about proper team communication. I have played probably about a dozen SGs in my Civ3 carreer, and I have seen both extremes: if the team cooperates well, a Regent level player suddenly plays like an Emperor level player, if he carefully reads the team discussions, tries to understand the plan the team wants to implement, and asks questions, if anything is unclear. But I have also seen the opposite: a single player not bothering to read the discussions, and then in his turn set just playing what first comes to his mind and completely ruining the agreed on strategy. In my opinion, this spoils the fun (and the time investment!) of the rest of the team members. The worst example, I remember from one of my SGs: we had gotten an early SGL, and after some discussion the team decided that the Lighthouse would be the most beneficial wonder for us in the current situation, in order to allow lux trade over sea squares. We only had to wait for Map Making to become availabe. The next player then did not pay attention and rushed the Great Library, when he got Literature during his turn set, because in his opinion "the GLib always is the most powerful wonder". Not only did he fail to pay attention to the prior team decision, he also completely failed to notice, that our strategy involved being the tech leader (by trading and fast own research), and that therefore the GLib was completely useless for us. And to even top all this: we had also decided to rush the wonder in a certain town that did not yet have any culture, so that the culture expansion from the wonder would enable that town to work a fish and a whale tile for faster growth. Of course he had not read (or understood) that part either, so he rushed his GLib someplace else, where the extra culture was not needed at all...
3. One of my earlier SGs also involved the Vikings: a variant, where we decided to play as OCC ("One City Challenge" for those who still struggle with the Civ3 acronyms... ) and to shoot for a Conquest victory. (Domination is a wee bit difficult to achieve with only one city... And most of the other victory conditions like 20K, UN and Space had already been done as OCC, so we went for Conquest.) Difficulty level was Deity, but we had a much better start position than in this game. Some of the tactics from that ealier game will probably be applied here as well, especially the Berzerk-based "hit and run" tactic... Recently I was able to re-use that tactic in a Sid COTM game, and I described it in detail in the corresponding spoiler of COTM127. I expect that we will be able to re-use it here as well, if this is a true archipelago map, so you may want to check it out as preparation for this game.

 

[Elephantium]

I'm also interested in playing. I completely agree with Lanz about the first 50T being the most important; they have a magnifying effect on the mid- and late-game.

 

[choxorn]

I guess I didn't word that carefully enough- I didn't mean to imply that the early turns weren't important, just that they were less busy- you just have less of everything so you don't have as many decisions to make. But just because there aren't as many things to do doesn't mean that the things you do will be any less important.

 

[tjs282]

Lanzelot, you'd be welcome to join. Gandhi will soon be reigning triumphant anyway, won't he? Reaching the Dom-limit from your current position is really just a formality...

And thanks for the link to the Sid-COTM Spoiler. You said you 50-turned it to Republic after doing your Philo -> CoL slingshot, so it would have taken you ~100 turns to get there (~25T each for Writing and Philo, then 50T on Rep?), is that right? But does it then go without saying (your Spoiler doesn't say, anyway!) that having got Republic, you then revolted to it, even though you were playing for a Conquest-win in the Medieval? (Given that Scandinavia starts with Alphabet, I figure the Republic-slingshot should be a shoo-in for us at Emp, but what I wasn't so sure about, was whether it would be useful as our government, or just as tech-trade fodder. But hell, if it works on Sid...).

Thanks also for reminding me about the gifting-then-recapturing tactic; that's a much better idea than the vague plan I'd come up with (i.e. just razing+replacing them, or letting them get recaptured by their former owner). I was concerned that we might be forced to go Monarchic to avoid WW, caused by losing towns to AI-recapture, but using the gift-and-recapture tactic should allow us to run a Republic without a problem. Also, it should help us if we agree to carry on with this AI-respawning start. Respawn requires a free 5x5 area (centred on a habitable tile?), right? So with respawn on, razing towns would actually be counter-productive (if we don't have Settlers to replace them ourselves), because it will free up respawn-space. So it would definitely be better to leave all towns standing, whenever possible: given the AI's tendency to settle at CxxxxC, once we hold all of a Civ's mainland-towns, (even if we never build any Culture in them) there would likely be very little respawn-space left available between them. (And if there was, under Republic, with minimal SCI% after Invention we should be able to cash-rush Settlers to fill in any such holes.)

Downside of respawn: Although I can imagine how satisfying it might be to watch AI unit-stacks go 'poof!' on the demise of the owning civ, I don't think we'd be able to count on it happening during the first couple of invasions, while there's still free respawn-space on the board? Therefore, our first couple of Zerk-led invasions should simply aim to grab an AI-Civ's homeland (and gift them to our next victim), without worrying about any (remote) offshore-town they might have founded (if they have, so much the better: their Palace will relocate there). Once we've got control of their mainland (by recapturing the gifted towns), we make peace with them to protect our new towns from any remaining unit-stacks, while we build Walls/ Barracks/ Harbours/ Ducts (as appropriate). Since gifting towns doesn't insta-convert the citizenry to their new nationality, then even if we've made peace with the original owner (whether they've been exiled offshore, or respawned in a remote corner of the map), their new capital's BFC likely won't overlap with their old towns. So flip-risk should also be fairly minimal after we recapture them.

Later, as the map fills up more, respawning will become less of an issue, and we can just go for straight annihilation. Then, if we haven't won the game by the time we hold all the major landmasses, we can redeclare on some/all of the remaining Civs as necessary, and make a final push to capture their offshore-towns -- even 1-tile islands would not be immune to Zerks, and are also less likely to have Pikes/Muskets in them. We would at that point probably still have to do mop-up on any remaining units in their homelands, but since we should have most of the map and resources in our hands by then, this shouldn't be too difficult.

Elephantium: I've been watching the last couple of LKT-SGs, and you would also be welcome to join -- just so long as you don't expect us to be playing at the same level of competence as LKT et al...!

Spoiler Start 3 :

I started a solo-game on this one last night, just out of curiosity. I found that although my capital was Coastal, it turned out to be on a smallish inland sea There are some good 1st and 2nd ring town sites (or there will be once I irrigate the Plains, chop the Forests, drain the Marshes, and burn the Jungles...), but the nearest open coastline in any direction is at least 2nd- or 3rd-ring distance away. Although there's a narrow isthmus on the eastern shore of the inland sea, where a canal-town could be founded, it's currently completely surrounded by Jungle... So it's lucky we didn't choose this one! OTOH, I made the Republic-slingshot around Turn 70, and am close to finishing the GLight, so the basic starting plan is sound.

 

[Lanzelot]

Your overall strategy you posted above, is very sound. I would say we can follow it by the dot, and it will guarantee a smooth successful game. Using the "hit-and-run tactic" means just a "refinement of the tactical means to implement that strategy", not generally a change of the strategy... BTW, I think you can get the idea of how powerful the "hit-and-run tactic" is by the fact that it enabled a Deity OCC Conquest victory (as far as I am aware of, the only Deity OCC Conquest on record?!) and it enabled a 650 AD Domination on Sid. After playing these games, I came to the conclusion that the Berzerk is one of the best UUs, so strong that it almost borders on cheating... (Berzerk + Great Lighthouse + Archipelago = the AI is toast on any level...)

If I remember correctly, in the Sid game I did Pottery, before starting on Writing. In my experience, the few turns lost on Pottery can easily be made up for during Writing and Philo because of the faster expansion allowed by the granary. The exception is, when you meet a nearby neighbor that starts with Pottery and are able to trade. But on an archipelago map, the chances for that happening are very slim...

This is not going to be "Always War", right? So there is no doubt about it: Republic is the best choice. (I didn't mention it in my COTM spoiler, since for me it is almost self-understood... Nothing beats Republic... Which reminds me that I should also finish my "Always War as a Republic" story some time...)

I see no problem with using the current start save: the "respawn" feature does not have a major impact. Can't remember exactly, but I think, eliminated AIs no longer respawn, once the first nation reaches the Middle Ages (or something like that). And even if one or two AIs respawn, it is a benefit for us, rather than a disadvantage: more towns for us to capture = we reach domination faster...

Before I start my go at the initial position, I think there are a few things, which we need to make a team decision about:

• What to research? There are two options: a) Start Writing right away. b) Do Pottery first. As I already said, in my experience b) usually catches up with a) by the time we are through Writing, CoL and Philo, sometimes b) is even faster. The exception to this is, when there is no good land around, so that the early granary doesn't help that much.
• What to build? There are three options: a) a warrior, b) a curragh, c) start prebuilding the granary (farmer's gambit).
  I haven't looked at the save yet, but I think that c) is not possible in our case: we are militaristic, so our barrack-prebuild has only 20 shields and would probably run over long before we have Pottery. We can say for sure, once we know how long Pottery would take us. I'm very tempted to do b): an early curragh could net us many contacts and trading opportunities, and also settle the question, whether we need to build the Lighthouse ourselves or can rely on capturing it. If, however, our island is quite big, a warrior would be good to find the best settling spots early?!
• Settle in place or take a risk and go scouting for a food resource?

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, after opening the save, I noticed that the coast line bends southward on both sides of the starting location. Therefore it is to be expected, that our island is rather large. So my vote goes for "Pottery first".

And worker 1N on the river BG. It's currently the best tile, and it allows a good view at the northern land, perhaps a food tile appears, that would make taking a hike worth it.

 

[Spoonwood]

so our barrack-prebuild has only 20 shields and would probably run over long before we have Pottery.

You might pre-build with a 30 shield settler. I'm not saying the farmer's gambit makes for the best option, but it can work via pre-building with a settler and even mining instead of roading first on Emperor with using "What's The Big Picture".

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, I played my 20 turns. Not sure, how we proceed now, so I add the description here in a spoiler:

Spoiler Turns 0-20 :

Turn 0: Worker goes 1N on the river BG and finds: nothing. Also no food to be seen in the fog. So I decide to settle in place.
In this situation with no food whatsoever, we need a Granay asap. Now I do a little bit of calculation: Pottery costs 60 beakers, and we are making 5bpt, so that would be 12 turns. (We grow after 10 turns, but even two extra beakers will not be enough to do the remaining 10b in one turn, so it will remain 12 turns.)
In 12 turns we will make 6x2 + 4x3 + 1 on growth + 2x4 = 33 shields. Perfect! After 11 turns we will have 29 shields in the box, so the settler-prebuild will suffice, and we can switch to Granary from "the big picture", as indicated by Spoonwood. So I start building a settler. Research is Pottery at 100%

Turn 1: Worker starts a mine.
Turn 7: Worker starts a road.
Turn 10: Worker moves to the river furs tile. Trondheim grows to 2.
Turn 11: Research can be reduced to 20%. But we need 10% lux. Pottery finishes interturn, and from the "big picture" I switch to F1 and change the almost completed settler to a Granary.
Worker starts to chop the forest in order to speed up the granary. Research Writing at 90%.
Turn 15: 10 shields for our Granary. Worker starts a road.
Turn 17: The road will finish interturn, so we can already reduce lux to 0%. Science up to 100%.
Turn 18: Granary finishes. Not sure what to build next, but with currently 4spt, a Warrior would waste too many shields, especially as we get a ninth shield on growth... So I set it to Curragh for the moment.
Turn 19: A Dutch warrior finds us, and I sell Warrior Code to them for 35 gold. This will carry us at least through Writing. But as the Dutch warrior close to our undefended capital makes me a bit nervous, I switch from Curragh to Archer.

Here our empire in 3000BC (turn 20). Trondheim has just grown to size 3, and from now on we will grow every 5 turns instead of every 10. After the archer finishes, the mine on the furs will finish interturn, so we can then build things without waste at 5spt. For example a Warrior in 2 turns for MP and then a Curragh in 3 to get our exploration started and then another Warrior for inland exploration. By that time Trondheim will have grown enough, so that we can think about our first settler. Writing is currently due in 21 turns, but we'll grow a couple of times till then, so I expect we can do it in approx. 15 turns.

 

[Nathiri]

I'll post mine then too.

Spoiler :

So I played some turns, then realised I'm supposed to be recording what I do...

I decided I would build just do what I normally would do on a default game for the first 20 turns.

So at Turn 11, I've explored this so far, and we are about to complete our 2nd worker from the capital.

Looking at the map, a Russian Spearman and Warrior off to the top left there. Possible city sites I see so far is, one city 3 tiles north of Trondheim on grassland and by the river, another one 3 tiles southwest or so to get that fish, and probably one 3 tiles east in between those hills.

Next turn, Russia contacts me in diplomacy asking for Alphabet. I decide to take it, but adding 10 gold. Normally I do not like to conduct diplomacy often with the AI. I like to try to solo it without too much asking for techs or giving them. I like to be the tech leader.

Turn 16: Another warrior has completed, and our other scouting warrior has found some whales, and it looks like a good city spot over there.

Turn 20: Another warrior has completed. I also set the 2 workers to chop one of those furs and I set the production to a granary. The chop is set to complete next turn. Bronze Working is complete and I set the research to Writing. I decided to go Bronze Working first as Writing was a little long I thought, even at 100%, but I probably should of just teched it. Looking back at what tjs wrote, that is probably what I should of done. Russia knew it when I came in contact anyway and could of traded Alphabet for it. I plan to build a curragh here, but since I was going for a chop, I thought I should make it useful towards something long. I decided to chop the furs so there would be another grassland tile there and I could road the lux at the same time.

I havent exactly perfected any particular strategy on default Emperor games, I just kind of do what I think. I am experienced however in shield output and that, but I've mostly been focusing on Multiplayer style of playing, and always war. So what I have may not be ideal. From the games I've played on Emperor in the default game, they have all turned out fine in expansion and production.

I left the start on turn 20 without moving any units.

I downloaded CivAssist, but I cant get it to work properly it seems. It had some errors when I launched it and had a blank window, so I loaded it in compatibility and as Administrator and now it shows the interface there besides the menu buttons, but I cant get it to get game information as of yet, since it has a problem loading the save file.

 

[tjs282]

I downloaded CivAssist, but I cant get it to work properly it seems. It had some errors when I launched it and had a blank window, so I loaded it in compatibility and as Administrator and now it shows the interface there besides the menu buttons, but I cant get it to get game information as of yet, since it has a problem loading the save file.

The first question I'd ask (assuming that you are running WinVista, Win7, Win8 or Win10) is, do you have Civ3 installed outside the (protected) 'C:/ProgramFiles/' directory, as recommended by Puppeteer, here? And the second question I'd ask is, is your game running from a file named 'Civ3conquests.exe' (as opposed to e.g. 'Civ3Conquests NoCD.exe')?

If the answer to either of those questions is 'No', then CAII may not be finding your autosave files either (Question 1) because Windows is quietly putting them in VirtualStore rather than your '.../Civilization3/Conquests/Saves/Auto/' folder, and/or (Question 2) because CAII does not 'know' that Civ3 is running in the first place.

The first issue should be fix-able by granting Civ3 full Admin privileges (giving it permission it to write directly to 'C:/Program Files/.../Conquests/Saves/Auto/'), or uninstalling the game and re-installing it to e.g. 'C:/Games/Civilization3/' (may not be feasible if you have the Steam-version?). The second issue can be fixed by renaming your .exe to the official Firaxis name: Civ3Conquests.exe (which CAII knows to look for in the list of active processes).

However, if the answer to both questions is 'Yes', then can you load a gamesave manually (using the 'File'/'Choose File' buttons)? If no to this one, are you sure you have the latest (Win10 compatible) version of CAII?

(Would You Like To Know More? Check the CivAssistII thread, from about page 59 onwards)

 

[Nathiri]

The first question I'd ask (assuming that you are running WinVista, Win7, Win8 or Win10) is, do you have Civ3 installed outside the (protected) 'C:/ProgramFiles/' directory, as recommended by Puppeteer, here? And the second question I'd ask is, is your game running from a file named 'Civ3conquests.exe' (as opposed to e.g. 'Civ3Conquests NoCD.exe')?

If the answer to either of those questions is 'No', then CAII may not be finding your autosave files either (Question 1) because Windows is quietly putting them in VirtualStore rather than your '.../Civilization3/Conquests/Saves/Auto/' folder, and/or (Question 2) because CAII does not 'know' that Civ3 is running in the first place.

The first issue should be fix-able by granting Civ3 full Admin privileges (giving it permission it to write directly to 'C:/Program Files/.../Conquests/Saves/Auto/'), or uninstalling the game and re-installing it to e.g. 'C:/Games/Civilization3/' (may not be feasible if you have the Steam-version?). The second issue can be fixed by renaming your .exe to the official Firaxis name: Civ3Conquests.exe (which CAII knows to look for in the list of active processes).

However, if the answer to both questions is 'Yes', then can you load a gamesave manually (using the 'File'/'Choose File' buttons)? If no to this one, are you sure you have the latest (Win10 compatible) version of CAII?

(Would You Like To Know More? Check the CivAssistII thread, from about page 59 onwards)

Windows 7 and it runs as Civ3Conquests.exe. This is the steam version, but I have it installed on the 2nd partition, not in the Program Files. So my directory is: DATA/Data/Steam/steamapps/common/civ3/conquests/. I have this path for the appropiate area in the settings of CivAssist.

My saves go to the Conquests/Saves folder just fine, as do autosaves.

When I hit File, it comes up with an unhandled exception: "value cannot be null", "Parameter name: path 1", if you hit continue it tries to continue. It doesnt show anything in that window, so I hit the Pick button and it goes directly into the Saves folder like I had given the path for. I click on the SG save file and it says it encountered an exception and that you can send an email to report the bug.

I just downloaded the program so I assume I have the latest version.

 

[robbus]

Yes I do have civassist2 and use it every turn.....

I am tied up this weekend but I am in if not too late...

skip me if you must

 

[tjs282]

When I hit File, it comes up with an unhandled exception: "value cannot be null", "Parameter name: path 1", if you hit continue it tries to continue. It doesnt show anything in that window, so I hit the Pick button and it goes directly into the Saves folder like I had given the path for. I click on the SG save file and it says it encountered an exception and that you can send an email to report the bug.

Aha! Sounds like you've done everything else 'right' so this (bolded part) might be causing the problem: I did this with a game recently (because reasons), and CAII immediately stopped working on me (can't remember what error-message I got, but might have been the same one). So maybe try not specifying a filepath (i.e. unchecking/ clearing that box), and see what happens.

 

[tjs282]

And here's my progress at 3000 BC

Spoiler Turnlog :

T 0, 4000 BC
Worker 1SW, so I don't have to cross back and forth over the river yet
Trondheim founded in place -- I considered moving the Settler 1SE to the Tobacco-tile, which had no bonus-shields, but decided I'd rather have the commerce (later)
Citizen works BGrass 1N--> Warrior (5T) for mil-pol at Pop2
Research set to Writing at SCI%=100% (48T, but should come down with growth and further Settlement)
IBT

T 1, 3950 BC
Worker begins Road (3T)
IBT

T 4, 3800 BC
Worker begins Mine (6T, will be done just as new citizen arrives)
IBT
Warrior --> Curragh (8T at 2 SPT, but Governator is set to 'Emphasise Production', so I'll get Pop2 IBT-shields and finish in 7T)

T 5, 3750 BC
Warrior sent 1W to explore immediate surroundings (will need to be back in T'heim in 6T to prevent a riot) -- spots a Hill 2 tiles away
IBT

T 7, 3650 BC
Hill is coastal, and coast runs north -- we can put a 1st-ring town on that corner
Warrior sent back to T'heim
IBT

T 9, 3550 BC
CAII pops up the growth-warning, Warrior will arrive back next turn
IBT
Border expansion, showing that we're (probably) near the southern end of our island, as the minimap implied, with west coast just visible as well

T 10, 3500 BC
WTH?!? Even though 'Manage moods' isn't switched on, T'heim's Governator turned the 2nd citizen into a Clown?!? So I didn't get the IBT-shields!
Worker 1E to Tobacco-tile
T'heim's citizens MM'd for 3 SPT plus Baccy-commerce (Curragh in 1T)
Warrior arrives back to keep order
IBT
Curragh --> Warrior (2T, after MMing for 5spt, 1fpt)

T 11, 3450 BC
Curragh begins exploring our eastern coast, but also spots a Coastal fish 3S of T'heim -- another potential town site...?
Worker begins roading Tobacco
IBT

T 12, 3400 BC
IBT
Warrior -- Settler (8T, growth in 8T--will need MM)

T 13, 3350 BC
Warrior goes to scout SW
Curragh spots coastal-shelf running SE --the next island(?) already?
IBT
Pink Warrior appears NW of T'heim!

T 14, 3300 BC
CAII sez: Arabs have CBur and Pots -- and BronzeWork, which I hope they popped from a Hut (they're EXP). I only have Alph to trade -- so they must have popped WarCode as well -- so I decide to wait a bit
Worker begins mine (6T, ready for Pop3)
Warrior arrives on SW Hill, sees Tundra to the south. So no 2nd-ring towns east, west, or south... Great.
Curragh spots 2 Wheat-Plains 7NE of T'heim --would be good to get here before Abu does...
Change my mind about the early Settler, switch to Archer (4T left)
Can chop for a Gran after the Archer(s), then do Settlers faster from Pop5/6.
IBT

T 15, 3250 BC
Warrior 1S to Forest -- will go 1 further, then turn back north
Curragh finds Desert north of the Wheat, heads east to Island -- it looks small (3-4 tiles?)
IBT

T 16, 3200 BC
Warrior now sees Tundra in all directions but north/east -- figures...
Curragh heads north from the island, spotting Orange borders to the north. Gotta be either the Dutch or English: great, another SEA-Civ...
IBT

T 17, 3150 BC
And it's the Dutch, controlling a semi-'chokepoint' next to a 1-tile coastal Lake
With 2 Civs our Island, looks like we'll be starting our fighting early. But to do that, I'm going to need more towns, so I put the Settler back into production (5T, growth in 4T, but the Worker will be finished mining in 3T)...
In the meantime, Willy will sell us Pots+10g or Bronze+10g for WarCode, but not both with what I've got. If he has Bronze I guess he's met Abu already, which means I should be able to get them cheaper now...
And I can: Abu will give us CBur+Pots+25g for Alph. Wow. But I won't get a decent price for CBur from Willy, and can't research Writing any faster than 100%, so more gold doesn't help right now
Warrior starts heading north -- he'll pick the Settler up on the way, and Settle somewhere upriver
IBT
Willy asks us to get our ship out of here. I said SHIP!

T 18, 3100 BC
Curragh spots more coastal-shelf across the sea east from Amsterdam
Provisional 1st-ring dotmap made in CAII
GAME SAVED
IBT

T 19, 3050 BC
Curragh braves the waves, and reaches the next big island
IBT

T 20, 3000 BC
Worker moves to Riverside Furs-forest, to begin chopping for a Gran (and roading for the Lux)
Curragh begins sailing SE along the coast of the next... continent? (Or really just a big island?)
It seems that it's just the 3 of us on our island, I now have 19T on Writing, and the Dutch have 35 gold (guess they popped a hut), so I decide to take Abu's deal: CBur+Pots+25g for Alph (he's still Annoyed though). Then CBur+WarCode gets us Bronze+5g from Willy (he's now Polite), putting us all at parity, except I'm now (a bit) richer than they are...
GAME SAVED

Spoiler Current inventory :

Trondheim = Pop2, growth in 1T, Settler in 1T
2 Warriors (1 garrisoned, 1 exploring)
1 Curragh (exploring)

Civs met: Arabs, Dutch
Techs known: WarCode + Alph (starters), Bronze, Pottery, CBurial
Current research: Writing (19T left at SCI%=100%)
Treasury = 42g

Spoiler The known world (~800 x 400 pixels) :

 

[Nathiri]

And here's my progress at 3000 BC

Spoiler Turnlog :

T 0, 4000 BC
Worker 1SW, so I don't have to cross back and forth over the river yet
Trondheim founded in place -- I considered moving the Settler 1SE to the Tobacco-tile, which had no bonus-shields, but decided I'd rather have the commerce (later)
Citizen works BGrass 1N--> Warrior (5T) for mil-pol at Pop2
Research set to Writing at SCI%=100% (48T, but should come down with growth and further Settlement)
IBT

T 1, 3950 BC
Worker begins Road (3T)
IBT

T 4, 3800 BC
Worker begins Mine (6T, will be done just as new citizen arrives)
IBT
Warrior --> Curragh (8T at 2 SPT, but Governator is set to 'Emphasise Production', so I'll get Pop2 IBT-shields and finish in 7T)

T 5, 3750 BC
Warrior sent 1W to explore immediate surroundings (will need to be back in T'heim in 6T to prevent a riot) -- spots a Hill 2 tiles away
IBT

T 7, 3650 BC
Hill is coastal, and coast runs north -- we can put a 1st-ring town on that corner
Warrior sent back to T'heim
IBT

T 9, 3550 BC
CAII pops up the growth-warning, Warrior will arrive back next turn
IBT
Border expansion, showing that we're (probably) near the southern end of our island, as the minimap implied, with west coast just visible as well

T 10, 3500 BC
Worker 1E to Tobacco-tile
T'heim's citizens MM'd for 3 SPT plus Baccy-commerce (Curragh in 1T)
Warrior arrives back to keep order
IBT
Curragh --> Warrior (2T, after MMing for 5spt, 1fpt)

T 11, 3450 BC
Curragh begins exploring our eastern coast, but also spots a Coastal fish 3S of T'heim -- another potential town site...?
Worker begins roading Tobacco
IBT

T 12, 3400 BC
IBT
Warrior -- Settler (8T, growth in 8T--will need MM)

T 13, 3350 BC
Warrior goes to scout SW
Curragh spots coastal-shelf running SE --the next island(?) already?
IBT
Pink Warrior appears NW of T'heim!

T 14, 3300 BC
CAII sez: Arabs have CBur and Pots -- and BronzeWork, which I hope they popped from a Hut (they're EXP). I only have Alph to trade -- so they must have popped WarCode as well -- so I decide to wait a bit
Worker begins mine (6T, ready for Pop3)
Warrior arrives on SW Hill, sees Tundra to the south. So no 2nd-ring towns east, west, or south... Great.
Curragh spots 2 Wheat-Plains 7NE of T'heim --would be good to get here before Abu does...
Change my mind about the early Settler, switch to Archer (4T left)
Can chop for a Gran after the Archer(s), then do Settlers faster from Pop5/6.
IBT

T 15, 3250 BC
Warrior 1S to Forest -- will go 1 further, then turn back north
Curragh finds Desert north of the Wheat, heads east to Island -- it looks small (3-4 tiles?)
IBT

T 16, 3200 BC
Warrior now sees Tundra in all directions but north/east -- figures...
Curragh heads north from the island, spotting Orange borders to the north. Gotta be either the Dutch or English: great, another SEA-Civ...
IBT

T 17, 3150 BC
And it's the Dutch, controlling a semi-'chokepoint' next to a 1-tile coastal Lake
With 2 Civs our Island, looks like we'll be starting our fighting early. But to do that, I'm going to need more towns, so I put the Settler back into production (5T, growth in 4T, but the Worker will be finished mining in 3T)...
In the meantime, Willy will sell us Pots+10g or Bronze+10g for WarCode, but not both with what I've got. If he has Bronze I guess he's met Abu already, which means I should be able to get them cheaper now...
And I can: Abu will give us CBur+Pots+25g for Alph. Wow. But I won't get a decent price for CBur from Willy, and can't research Writing any faster than 100%, so more gold doesn't help right now
Warrior starts heading north -- he'll pick the Settler up on the way, and Settle somewhere upriver
IBT
Willy asks us to get our ship out of here. I said SHIP!

T 18, 3100 BC
Curragh spots more coastal-shelf across the sea east from Amsterdam
Provisional 1st-ring dotmap made in CAII
GAME SAVED
IBT

T 19, 3050 BC
Curragh braves the waves, and reaches the next big island
IBT

T 20, 3000 BC
Worker moves to Riverside Furs-forest, to begin chopping for a Gran (and roading for the Lux)
Curragh begins sailing SE along the coast of the next... continent? (Or really just a big island?)
It seems that it's just the 3 of us on our island, I now have 19T on Writing, and the Dutch have 35 gold (guess they popped a hut), so I decide to take Abu's deal: CBur+Pots+25g for Alph (he's still Annoyed though). Then CBur+WarCode gets us Bronze+5g from Willy (he's now Polite), putting us all at parity, except I'm now (a bit) richer than they are...
GAME SAVED

Spoiler Current inventory :

Trondheim = Pop2, growth in 1T, Settler in 1T
2 Warriors (1 garrisoned, 1 exploring)
1 Curragh (exploring)

Civs met: Arabs, Dutch
Techs known: WarCode + Alph (starters), Bronze, Pottery, CBurial
Current research: Writing (19T left at SCI%=100%)
Treasury = 42g

Spoiler The known world (~800 x 400 pixels) :

Seems like we all found a different first civ... no luck on the CivAssist yet, even with clearing the box.

Isnt having different players play 20 turns a little cheating? Knowing so much about your world in the first 20 turns by having different players play slightly different?

 

[Spoonwood]

Isnt having different players play 20 turns a little cheating? Knowing so much about your world in the first 20 turns by having different players play slightly different?

I kind of thought this also. So, here's another option for you guys. There's a bit of a kink to it that makes it slightly different than the original settings.

Spoiler :

Turn 1 - 4000 Move worker to bonus grassland. Found Trondheim. Set research to Writing as specified by original plan at 100%. Set build to curragh.

Turn 2 - 3950 The curragh says 7 turns left. Mining takes 6 turns. The curragh can get built faster even though the mine will take 6 turns to finish, so the worker mines.

Turn 3 - 3900 zzz...

Turn 4 - 3850 zzz...

Turn 5 - 3800 zzz...

Turn 6 - 3750 zzz...

Turn 7 - 3700 The worker will complete on the inter-turn. The curragh needs 3 more shields to finish, so it will finish up and be ready to move on turn 8 (see above for when I made this calculation).

Turn 8 - 3650 Do some calculations in my head. Trondheim can get 6 shields in two turns with no growth. But, it won't use the forest on growth, and it doesn't have a second bonus grassland available yet. Set build to warrior, just in case I've missed something and Trondheim can build it in 3 turns. The worker roads. The curragh heads northish. It spots two whales:



Turn 9 - 3600 Scout some more with the curragh.

Turn 10 - 3550 Scout some more.

Turn 11 - 3500 Trondheim's culture pops. Turn up luxes to 10%. Reset tiles so that an unworked bonus grassland gets used. Switch build to another curragh. Will have 2 shield overrun. Who cares about waste??? Spot some sea squares:



Turn 12 - 3450 The settler can build in 8 turns to match growth without any more shields. So, the worker roads. I move the curragh one square out and it spots the outline of another continent, but we can't reach it this turn. What's the policy on suicide ships? Oh well... boldly send it out over the sea since another curragh is in the works. Spot a Korean spear! Immediately contact Korea in case the curragh sinks. Korea has 35 gold and Bronze Working. Warriror Code could net us 35 gold. Push F2 for the trade advisor. He says we need a sea route to trade with Korea meaning that they are NOT on our continent. Decline to make any trades with Korea.

Turn 13 - 3400 Second curragh out. It heads south, which hopefully will quickly loop around the homeland, even though baby... it's cold outside. Maybe it would have worked better for it track the northern path. Start on settler. The other curragh gains a "first to float in dangerous waters award".

Turn 14 - 3350 Spot an isthmus with the first curragh:



Make sure to stay on the south side of that isthmus.

Turn 15 - 3300 The worker finishes it's road and starts on a mine. Spot another island which is clearly not on the same island as Korea and even though it's south away from the equator, the curragh head towards it. But, I keep it along the northern side of it.

Turn 16 - 3250 Spot possible outline of another island with the southern curragh. Will head west towards that spot on the next turn.

Turn 17 - 3200 The southern curragh definitely spoted another island. I could swing around it, but it just seems too far south and it might get scouted later on. So, that curragh will swing back up along the home island.

Turn 18 - 3150 Korea jumps from 35 to 60 gold, which I believe implies they just squashed another barbarian camp. They will pay all 60 of their gold for Warrior Code, but decide against it.

Turn 19 - 3100 Spot some marsh with the first curragh. The second curragh also determines that our home island is near a 3 tile island. Not that a low tile island poses a problem for 'zerks.

Turn 20 - 3050 Spot some jungle with the first curragh. Also, see spices located on that same island that I had passed up before. Settler due in 1. Here's the southwest:

If you guys decide to play that game out, I suggest that the settler goes at the corner of the river outside of Trondheim's borders at the regular grassland spot. Some warriors might also work as in order to fend off the restless barbarians. Maybe another curragh to explore the south/west islands and see if there's something out there. I didn't trade with Korea, hoping that another contact might get met soon enough. They don't seem to have put research to it, as if the Warrior Code for Bronze Working deal gets set up it says "we're getting close to a deal" and hasn't gone done to "doubtful".

Also, you might want to figure out the kink that I did with this game if you guys decide to play it out.

And, of course, the save:

 

[choxorn]

Hey Spoonwood, you should really put that in a Spoiler like everyone else did.

 

[tjs282]

Isnt having different players play 20 turns a little cheating? Knowing so much about your world in the first 20 turns by having different players play slightly different?

That occurred to me too, but since I've only played an SG with Chox and Lanz, I thought it might also be a useful comparative exercise, to see how everyone else tends to play (priorities, strengths, etc.): what common tactics there might be, and/or if anyone does something unusual/unorthodox, why they chose to do that.

Revealing different portions of the map to one another with our differing opening moves is a 'cheat' in a way, but there's a low limit to how many units any player could have produced during the first 20T, and/or how far they could have traveled in any direction, and hence the total explored radius round our capital. So after we've chosen one of the 3000 BC-starts to run with, that variance in exploration between the starts really only helps us over the next 15-20T, by which time it should have been flattened out as the already-explored map portions from the other starts also get filled in (one way or another) on our 'definitive' start. For the prior exploration to help during that 15-20T window (i.e. 1 or 2 turnsets), we would also have to DL the uploaded screenshots (or memorise them!).

Considering that the Space-race screen (F10) will tell us who else is on the board right off the bat (I didn't check this, but others might have), which order the 'local' Civs are actually met, is arguably not so impactful over the longer term either. We will in any case have no control over where the AI-Civs choose to plant their towns, which can vary substantially between games from an identical start, based on pRNG'd differences (in e.g. AI-exploration choices, barb-encounter outcomes, DoWs, etc.), so this info from one map may not even be applicable to another.

That said, one thing that does make me want to roll a new start (or use Spoonwood's) is that there are apparently (at least) 4 Civs on our 'island', which wasn't really what I'd intended for this game (probably shouldn't have gone for 60% water: 70% -- or even 80% -- would probably have been better). Rather, I was hoping to be able to go and pick off the majority of the other AI-Civs, one island(-group) at a time. As things stand, whichever 20T-start we chose, a large part of our warring would likely need to be done long before we get Invention/ Zerks, just to push those local Civs into the sea (to respawn elsewhere, if done prior to the end of the Ancient Age).

 

[Nathiri]

That occurred to me too, but since I've only played an SG with Chox and Lanz, I thought it might also be a useful comparative exercise, to see how everyone else tends to play (priorities, strengths, etc.): what common tactics there might be, and/or if anyone does something unusual/unorthodox, why they chose to do that.

Revealing different portions of the map to one another with our differing opening moves is a 'cheat' in a way, but there's a low limit to how many units any player could have produced during the first 20T, and/or how far they could have traveled in any direction, and hence the total explored radius round our capital. So after we've chosen one of the 3000 BC-starts to run with, that variance in exploration between the starts really only helps us over the next 15-20T, by which time it should have been flattened out as the already-explored map portions from the other starts also get filled in (one way or another) on our 'definitive' start. For the prior exploration to help during that 15-20T window (i.e. 1 or 2 turnsets), we would also have to DL the uploaded screenshots (or memorise them!).

Considering that the Space-race screen (F10) will tell us who else is on the board right off the bat (I didn't check this, but others might have), which order the 'local' Civs are actually met, is arguably not so impactful over the longer term either. We will in any case have no control over where the AI-Civs choose to plant their towns, which can vary substantially between games from an identical start, based on pRNG'd differences (in e.g. AI-exploration choices, barb-encounter outcomes, DoWs, etc.), so this info from one map may not even be applicable to another.

That said, one thing that does make me want to roll a new start (or use Spoonwood's) is that there are apparently (at least) 4 Civs on our 'island', which wasn't really what I'd intended for this game (probably shouldn't have gone for 60% water: 70% -- or even 80% -- would probably have been better). Rather, I was hoping to be able to go and pick off the majority of the other AI-Civs, one island(-group) at a time. As things stand, whichever 20T-start we chose, a large part of our warring would likely need to be done long before we get Invention/ Zerks, just to push those local Civs into the sea (to respawn elsewhere, if done prior to the end of the Ancient Age).

Yeah I noticed that too. There was like 4 civs around on the island. If one or maybe 2, that is okay to me.

 

[Spoonwood]

As things stand, whichever 20T-start we chose, a large part of our warring would likely need to be done long before we get Invention/ Zerks, just to push those local Civs into the sea (to respawn elsewhere, if done prior to the end of the Ancient Age).

I don't see why. 'Zerks work fine on land also. And you can still use amphibious assault from boats on your home island. Though, I can see how having multiple opponents on the island wasn't in what you intended for this game.