TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

[Lanzelot]

I don't see a problem with having 4 civs on our home "continent". There is enough room for some initial peaceful development, and by the time of the first clashes, we will be strong enough compared to the AI... After all: this is only Emperor! Using a "real archipelago" against Emperor would be like stealing candy from a baby... Let's at least have a little bit of a challenge...

And: if we would have started this like a "normal" SG, we wouldn't have noticed early on anyway, so restarting now would feel indeed like taking unfair spoiler information from our unusual "multi-start"... So let's stop whining and instead show them AIs, how the big boys play...


When comparing the four starts so far, the most striking feature is, that I am the only one who went for an ultra-early granary. And I think this is important for managing the Republic slingshot: because of the lack of food, it will not be easy to achieve this on Emperor. With the granary and consequently doubled growth-rate, we'll have the best chances to succeed with the slingshot. Both Nathiri and tjs282 traded Alphabet to a neighbor. I think this is too risky and jeopardizes the slingshot, considering our not-so-good start position (and consequently slow research). Nathiri in addition wasted some turns in the beginning with researching Masonry, which is not needed at all at that point, only delays the slingshot (diminishing the chances of achieving it) and can be obtained for free from the AI later on anyway. (That start sequence appears a bit "unfocused" to me as a matter of fact: no clear plan for the research and no clear plan for exploration: there are already 4 Warriors (which already cost maintenance and further reduce science output), but instead of exploring the far regions of our continent, they turned around and came back home, after meeting the Russians?! Warriors built for exploration need to keep walking as far as their feet will carry them... For MP duty, new ones can always be built at home. As in fact has already occurred here: of the 4 Warriors, it's enough if two stay at home, and the other two should by now have reached Russia on one side and the Dutch at the other. Don't understand me wrong: I don't think it's good to have 4 Warriors at this early stage. Way too many for my taste. There would have been better ways to invest those shields. But if we already have them, sending them to the far corners of the world would have been my choice of using them. All these little mistakes can be seen in the critical "indicator": 35 turns still left on Writing!)

In tjs282's start I don't like the fact, that the capital will drop back to size 1 in turn 21, and there is no Granary yet to regrow it quickly! Why are you crippling your poor capital that way? There are still many commerce- and shield-rich tiles for your capital to work, while there are no good town locations for our settlers. So letting the capital grow to size 6 and get some decent research and production going, is much better in this situation than to have 3-4 unproductive size 1 towns. The expansion will later be much quicker, if we first setup a strong capital. Just compare our research: you started with Writing immediately and now have 19 turns left. I first spent 12 turns on Pottery, but my Writing is now already down to 21 turns. I'm pretty sure that thanks to the Granary my approach will catch up or even overtake yours before the end of Writing, and then during CoL and Philo will cruise ahead significantly.

Spoonwood's start was highly original! The best exploration of them all. But I think, you handicaped yourself too much by obeying the pre-game order "Writing first", and the missing Granary will make itself felt over the next 1-2 turnsets? And the same "problem" as in tjs282's game: settler finishes in turn 21. Are you really sure it is wise to build a settler that early? Especially as the new town doesn't really have better tiles to work (yet) and these two citizens would earn much more gold and shields, if they stayed at home in the capital at this point? Just consider: in turn 30 my capital will reach size 5, yours will reach size 2...!

 

[Nathiri]

I don't see a problem with having 4 civs on our home "continent". There is enough room for some initial peaceful development, and by the time of the first clashes, we will be strong enough compared to the AI... After all: this is only Emperor! Using a "real archipelago" against Emperor would be like stealing candy from a baby... Let's at least have a little bit of a challenge...

And: if we would have started this like a "normal" SG, we wouldn't have noticed early on anyway, so restarting now would feel indeed like taking unfair spoiler information from our unusual "multi-start"... So let's stop whining and instead show them AIs, how the big boys play...


When comparing the four starts so far, the most striking feature is, that I am the only one who went for an ultra-early granary. And I think this is important for managing the Republic slingshot: because of the lack of food, it will not be easy to achieve this on Emperor. With the granary and consequently doubled growth-rate, we'll have the best chances to succeed with the slingshot. Both Nathiri and tjs282 traded Alphabet to a neighbor. I think this is too risky and jeopardizes the slingshot, considering our not-so-good start position (and consequently slow research). Nathiri in addition wasted some turns in the beginning with researching Masonry, which is not needed at all at that point, only delays the slingshot (diminishing the chances of achieving it) and can be obtained for free from the AI later on anyway. (That start sequence appears a bit "unfocused" to me as a matter of fact: no clear plan for the research and no clear plan for exploration: there are already 4 Warriors (which already cost maintenance and further reduce science output), but instead of exploring the far regions of our continent, they turned around and came back home, after meeting the Russians?! Warriors built for exploration need to keep walking as far as their will feet carry them... For MP duty, new ones can always be built at home. As in fact has already occured here: of the 4 Warriors, it's enough if two stay at home, and the other two should by now have reached Russia on one side and the Dutch at the other. Don't understand me wrong: I don't think it's good to have 4 Warriors at this early stage. Way too many for my taste. There would have been better ways to invest those shields. But if we already have them, sending them to the far corners of the world would have been my choice of using them. All these little mistakes can be seen in the critical "indicator": 35 turns still left on Writing!)

In tjs282's start I don't like the fact, that the capital will drop back to size 1 in turn 21, and there is no Granary yet to regrow it quickly! Why are you crippling your poor capital that way? There are still many commerce- and shield-rich tiles for your capital to work, while there are no good town locations for our settlers. So letting the capital grow to size 6 and get some decent research and production going, is much better in this situation than to have 3-4 unproductive size 1 towns. The expansion will later be much quicker, if we first setup a strong capital. Just compare our research: you started with Writing immediately and now have 19 turns left. I first spent 12 turns on Pottery, but my Writing is now already down to 21 turns. I'm pretty sure that thanks to the Granary my approach will catch up or even overtake yours before the end of Writing, and then during CoL and Philo will cruise ahead significantly.

Spoonwood's start was highly original! The best exploration of them all. But I think, you handicaped yourself too much by obeying the pre-game order "Writing first", and the missing Granary will make itself felt over the next 1-2 turnsets? And the same "problem" as in tjs282's game: settler finishes in turn 21. Are you really sure it is wise to build a settler that early? Especially as the new town doesn't really have better tiles to work (yet) and these two citizens would earn much more gold and shields, if they stayed at home in the capital at this point? Just consider: in turn 30 my capital will reach size 5, yours will reach size 2...!

It wasnt Masonry... It was Bronze Working, but you are right, I already know I shouldnt of done it. I could of even stopped Bronze Working early from Russia, but I figured since I started it, I would finish it, plus I was still in the mode of researching it all myself. Lately, because ive been mainly playing always war on tiny maps with 8 players, I usually go for a warriors and worker early timing the growth, which is why I had so many warriors as I was building them in the interim. I like having 2 workers working together. Because of the heavy focus on survival in those games, I havent been building granaries, so I was out of practice.

I usually dont trade techs at all with the AI, but since ive been seeing that a lot here, I decided to do it. I suppose it is done to use the AI as a tech partner, but I like to be completely solo, especially if I go for the Philo free tech, or I want to build the Great Library.

 

[Spoonwood]

Thanks for the compliment Lanzelot

But I think, you handicaped yourself too much by obeying the pre-game order "Writing first", and the missing Granary will make itself felt over the next 1-2 turnsets? And the same "problem" as in tjs282's game: settler finishes in turn 21. Are you really sure it is wise to build a settler that early?

The missing granary perhaps hurts a bit. The more I think about, the more I suspect you're correct on that point about The Granary. And maybe it's not wise to build a settler that early, though any more units would have entailed unit support, and I wanted to stick to the plan. I hadn't checked TJ's 4000 BC save before, but it looks like there are four tribes that start with Pottery. TJ also notes that he met The Dutch while he still could have traded Warrior Code for Pottery, even though he didn't build a curragh first. The odds are better than not that the first tribe you would meet with such a start will have Pottery available for trading. Someone might pick up via a hut also. And sure you might have to trade Alphabet to get Pottery in time before the settler can complete, but you might hold off on that as long as you can and perhaps even manage to pre-build the settler with an early wonder or a Temple, if you could manage to trade Warrior Code for Bronze Working or Ceremonial Burial, or conceivably Masonry via multiple contacts.

 

[tjs282]

I wasn't sure about the Settler -- having found 2 Civs already in relatively close proximity (which was not the plan), I thought it would be preferable to get at least a second city up (preferably upstream, towards the Arabs, rather than Coastal), but a Gran was going to be my next build after that. Given my tech-trading on T20, the current Settler-build could still be switched to a Gran before hitting Enter, though. What slowed me down on research, was not improving the upstream BGrass first, on the (shaky) grounds that it was the wrong side of the river -- but with hindsight, moving back to the south bank to chop the Forest would have cost a Worker-move anyway. And I sold Alph to the Arabs, because the Dutch are also SEA, and therefore start with Alph as well. If it comes to a choice between Willy selling it to Abu, or me -- then it should be me, shouldn't it? Especially since Willy didn't know CBurial yet, but had just got his perfectly manicured hands on some hut-gold...

 

[choxorn]

Here's what I did:

Spoiler :

4000 BC (Turn 0):

-Move the Worker 1N across the river to the BG. In place looks like the best location, so I settle Trondheim in place, and have it start building a Warrior.

-Start Researching Writing at 100% Sci, due in 48 turns.

3950 BC (Turn 1):

-Worker starts building a road.

3900 BC-3850 BC (Turn 2-3):

Nothing.

3800 BC (Turn 4):

-Worker finishes road, starts mine. Time to research Writing is down to 37 turns.

IBT:

-Trondheim: Warrior->Warrior

3750 BC (Turn 5):

-Warrior heads due North to start exploring.

3700 BC-3550 BC (Turn 6-9):

Not much interesting happens. The Warrior climbs some hills NNW of Trondheim and sees some more hills and a lake.

IBT:

-Trondheim: Warrior->Curragh

-Trondheim grows to size 2 and the border expands.

3500 BC (Turn 10):

-Leave the second Warrior in Trondheim to keep the citizens from rioting, and decide to have the worker connect the Furs to help with that a bit.

3450 BC (Turn 11):

-Worker starts building a road on the Furs NW of Trondheim.

3400 BC-3350 BC (Turn 12-13):

Not much. The Warrior to the NNW finds more hills and a few mountains.

IBT:

-Trondheim: Curragh->Warrior

3300 BC (Turn 14):

-Send the Curragh East to explore.

IBT:

-An Arab Warrior shows up to the West of Trondheim.

3250 BC (Turn 15):

-Contact Arabia, they’re up CB, Bronze Working, and Pottery on us, but don’t have Alphabet. I decide to trade them Alphabet for Pottery and 10 gold.

-Switch Trondheim to a Granary, due in 14 turns.

IBT:

-The Arab Warrior heads South.

3200 BC (Turn 16):

-Not much happens.

3150 BC (Turn 17):

-Arabia now also has The Wheel.

-The worker finishes building a road, I decide to have them chop the forest to build the Granary faster.

-The Curragh finds a 4-tile Island Northeast of Trondheim, the Warrior finds some Jungle North of the hills.

3100 BC (Turn 18):

-The Warrior finds Brown borders in the distance.

IBT:

-A Brown Warrior pops out of the borders, they’re the Russians. They have the same tech as the Arabs, minus the Wheel.

3050 BC (Turn 19):

-The Warrior keeps going North and meets a Russian Settler pair. They already have two cities, looks like a third is well on the way.

-The Curragh meets the Orange borders of The Netherlands, who are up BW and CB on us, but don’t have Warrior Code. They’ll trade us CB for WC and 13 gold- I decide to hold off on that for now.

3000 BC (Turn 20):

-Now the Dutch want more than the 20 gold we have along with Warrior Code for Ceremonial Burial. Can’t do that, obviously.

-The Worker is 1 turn from finishing cutting the forest down on the roaded Furs.

-This map is a bit more crowded than I was expecting.

I probably could have managed the trades a little better, but I wanted to get Pottery ASAP for more food- Similar thinking as Lanzelot, only I wanted to start out with Writing and trade for Pottery.

Looks like we have room for two or three cities to the east, south, and maybe west, but we're mostly going to be expanding north.

 

[Lanzelot]

In retrospect, choxorn's attempt looks like the best one at the moment: he started Writing right away and got Pottery via trade just in time for an "early-enough" Granary. (But as we were "promised" an archipelago map, we could not count on that... Normally on archipelago it is highly unlikely, that you meet someone early enough, and that this someone has Pottery and that you have something to trade for it...)
The only slightly drawbacks of this approach: 3 wasted worker turns (by first roading and then chopping the furs forest) and the fact that we had to give Alphabet away that early (which may put the slingshot at risk).

Up to Monarch, the slingshot can always be achieved with a reasonable start position. However, starting with Emperor it gets a bit risky and I developed the habit of holding on to Alphabet (and later of course Writing), until the slingshot is in the bag... (Especially with a food-poor start like the current one.)

PS: so how to move forward? We could continue with choxorns, or we could try to optimize it still a bit more by a) starting a granary-prebuild a little earlier (in anticipation of meeting the Arabs on time...) and b) chopping the forest first.
(We have replayed this start now so many times, that one more wouldn't matter anymore... And we'll get the optimum from the start, for those of us who are a little worried about the crowded map on Emperor level...)

 

[Nathiri]

In retrospect, choxorn's attempt looks like the best one at the moment: he started Writing right away and got Pottery via trade just in time for an "early-enough" Granary. (But as we were "promised" and archipelago map, we could not count on that... Normally on archipelago it is highly unlikely, that you meet someone early enough, and that this someone has Pottery and that you have something to trade for it...)
The only slightly drawbacks of this approach: 3 wasted worker turns (by first roading and then chopping the furs forest) and the fact that we had to give Alphabet away that early (which may put the slingshot at risk).

Up to Monarch, the slingshot can always be achieved with a reasonable start position. However, starting with Emperor it gets a bit risky and I developed the habit of holding on to Alphabet (and later of course Writing), until the slingshot is in the bag... (Especially with a food-poor start like the current one.)

PS: so how to move forward? We could continue with choxorns, or we could try to optimize it still a bit more by a) starting a granary-prebuild a little earlier (in anticipation of meeting the Arabs on time...) and b) chopping the forest first.
(We have replayed this start now so many times, that one more wouldn't matter anymore... And we'll get the optimum from the start, for those of us who are a little worried about the crowded map on Emperor level...)

I'm fine with whatever.

 

[Lanzelot]

What slowed me down on research, was not improving the upstream BGrass first, on the (shaky) grounds that it was the wrong side of the river -- but with hindsight, moving back to the south bank to chop the Forest would have cost a Worker-move anyway.

Exactly: the best tile that needs improvement after the river-BG is of course the river-furs, and that can be reached from the river-BG in one move, so the fact that he BG is on the "wrong" side of the river, did not matter in this particular situation....

Regarding the "optimum" start sequence: it would probably a combination of Spoonwood's, choxorn's and mine. In my example, the Granary was finished in turn 18, just in time for the second growth in turn 20. But in order to achieve that, it was necessary to start the prebuild already in turn 0, which means we won't meet anybody on time to trade Pottery. So if we build a Curragh first (Spoonwood's approach) in order to meet the Dutch earlier, or if we build a Warrior first (choxorn's approach) in order to meet the Russians earlier, the Granary will be ready only for the third growth. But still the trade-off would be "10 food for approx. 10 turns saved on Writing", and I think that is worth it, because we would also get out of Despotism roughly 10 turns earlier.

I think that building a Warrior would be better in this case: the Russians start with Bronze and Pottery, the Dutch with Alphabet and Pottery. We have Alphabet and Warrior Code. So with the Russians we have two chances to get Pottery: hopefully we get it for WC, but if they got WC by themselves in the meantime, we can still get Pots for Alpha. However, if the Dutch already know WC by the time we meet them, then we are screwed...
Also the Warrior has the additional chance of meeting the Arabs, with whom we again have two chances to get Pottery.

BTW:

WTH?!? Even though 'Manage moods' isn't switched on, T'heim's Governator turned the 2nd citizen into a Clown?!? So I didn't get the IBT-shields!

You got the IBT-shields ok... Just count your box. The order of events in such a case is like this:

1. Commerce is collected and happiness of the town is checked. (If it riots, the algorithm stops here, otherwise it proceeds to food and then shields as below.)
2. Food is collected, growth is checked and the new-born citizen is assigned to a tile. (In your case probably a BG tile, as we don't have enough food to get a forest tile interturn.)
3. Then shields are collected and put into the box.
4. Then the cultural borders expand, which triggers a re-check, whether any better tiles are available now than the ones currently worked on in the old 3x3 area. This also triggers a re-check of happiness, and here it is now noticed that the town is no longer happy. So the new-born citizen is taken off the tile again and turned into an entertainer...

 

[choxorn]

(But as we were "promised" and archipelago map, we could not count on that... Normally on archipelago it is highly unlikely, that you meet someone early enough, and that this someone has Pottery and that you have something to trade for it...)

Sure, but it was Archipelago with 60% water, increasing the change of meeting someone early.

I may have also been influenced a bit by having read some of the discussion outside the spoilers in this thread before I started playing.

(To be fair, I probably would have done the same thing regardless of whether I knew for sure that we had neighbors)

 

[Elephantium]

Okay, so...I haven't posted a start sequence yet, and at this point I think I've seen too many spoilers.

Personally, I don't care that we have neighbors on a larger landmass ... But restarting wouldn't bother me, either.

 

[Speedbird 95]

My 20 cents worth:

Some highlights--

• produced a warrior and two curraghs, granary due in 4 turns
• contact with Arabs & Dutch, made no trades with them
• researched pottery, working on writing at max science rate
• Trondheim is at size 2, growth in 2, 15g in the bank
• exploration has revealed spoiler information which should affect our strategy.

Detailed turn log--

Spoiler :

3000 BC
Founded Trondheim in place. Farming the north river bank grassland, worker moves to the field in use. Start a warrior. Researching pottery at 100%, because we will need a granary. [Note: I don't want to trade alpha or WC for pottery!]
Set governor to emphasize production & trade.

3950 BC
Worker starts a mine

3750 BC
Trandheim: warrior → curragh. Warrior moves N for scouting upriver.

3700 BC
Warrior moves N.

3650 BC
Worker starts a road; Warrior moves N, sees water.

3600 BC
Warrior climbs hill (W) for a better view of the fresh water. This decision will cost 2 beakers for the lux slider.

3550 BC
Warrior moves S, going back to Trondheim.

3500 BC
Trondheim grows & produces curragh (since we emphasized production not food). Borders expand. Adjust Trondheim to work the mined bonus grassland & the river furs (will give up 3 food to get the next curragh out faster). Adjust lux slider to 10%. Curragh moves S-SE-E. (This direction looks more likely to find contacts; The next curragh will have a closer look at the fish.) Worker crosses river to the furs. Warrior moves S. Adjust science to 60%, pottery due in 2 @ +2gpt

3450 BC
Worker starts chopping the fur-forest.
(This was a hard decision, also considered building road to hook up furs, or skipping ahead to the next bonus grassland. The reasons for chopping are: (1) going for granary & (2) going for COMMERCE. Trondheim doesn't have enough food per turn to let us work the forest for long. By converting to grassland we can work this square and get 3 gpt after building a road. + we get a 50% chance of bonus grassland.)
Warrior moves S. Curragh moves E-E-N.
Adjust science=50, +3gpt, pottery in 1

3400 BC
We learn POTTERY, research writing next (deciding we are not going to need an early temple, we will keep Trondheim happy by using the lux slider and building settler + worker(s)).
Warrior enters Trondheim, reduce lux=0.
Curragh N-N-N, discovers wheat.
10% science would give us writing in 50 @ +7gpt (for now...); 100% science gives writing in 30 at breakeven. Decide on 100% science. Speedbird the despot would get deposed if he fails to deliver the republic slingshot!

3350 BC
Trondheim: curragh → granary. We get 10 shields from the forest chop next turn so we were already committed.
Warrior fortifies in capital.
2nd curragh S-S-S; 1st curragh N-N-E, discovers 2nd wheat & small(?) island.

3300 BC
Arabian warrior appears. Abu has BW+CB, 0g. We do not trade anything because we do not want to give anything. Expecially since Abu is expansionistic.
2nd curragh S-S-SW.
1st curragh keeps going N on the main continent, after some thought. We want contact with our neighbors before Abu gets there, contacts on other continents will still be there for later.

3250 BC
Arabian warrior goes away to the north. It probably knows something we don't.
Forest chop complete, we won the bonus grassland lotto. Start a mine.
Curraghs continue along the coast. Contact with Netherlands. They can offer 10g (all their gold) + BW for WC and they already know alpha. No trade now for same reason as above, but note Dutch can do some kind of alpha for WC+CB trade with the Arabs within the next 6-10 turns depending on where is the Arabian scout. Postpone trade for discussion with the team.

3150 BC
1st curragh crosses sea, finds banana jungle on next(?) continent

3050 BC
1st curragh passes through a channel & discovers a goody hut. So there are going to be some barbarians after all!

3000 BC
2nd curragh discovers ... [spoiler information deleted]
end of turnset, save.
1 worker 1 warrior 2 curraghs 15 gold, pottery w/ writing due in 22 @100%, contacts w/ Arabia + Netherlands, building a granary

Strategic plans for the next turn set--

Spoiler :

• send a warrior towards the west...
• send a warrior and our first settler towards the two wheat fields. build a granary there ASAP
• send our worker to build a road to the new city
• have Trondheim build another worker to help out with roads/irrigation
• Trondheim will have to build at least 2 additional warriors to recover in size
• Then Trondheim should build a second and final settler
• Our second settler should found a city by the lake in the northeast. The sole purpose of building this city is to save the 8 worker-turns needed to bring irrigation towards our wheat field.
• When our wheat field is operational it will be responsible for producing all additional settlers.

 

[choxorn]

I think your start might be the best so far, you got Pottery and are getting Writing almost as fast as me, decent production, maybe you haven't quite explored as much as me but things look good from what I can see, and you got some more units out by not going for the Granary right from the start, which is a solid plan in my opinion.

 

[robbus]

Here are my 20 turns.

I did not keep a move diary but at some point early traded with Russia alphabet.

I like lanzelot idea of early capitol growth... I shoulda built a granary I guess.

Are you saying food is not good because there are few or no food bonus tiles like wheat and cows?

I don't understand the republic slingshot concept

 

[Elephantium]

Republic slingshot is: Research Writing, Code of Laws, and then Philosophy. Phil gives you a free technology if you're the first to discover it, and then you choose Republic. Since Republic is more expensive to research than the other technologies, you slingshot ahead to a better government about 20-30 turns ahead of when you would get there if you researched Philosophy first and took Code of laws as your free tech.

 

[robbus]

Republic slingshot is: Research Writing, Code of Laws, and then Philosophy. Phil gives you a free technology if you're the first to discover it, and then you choose Republic. Since Republic is more expensive to research than the other technologies, you slingshot ahead to a better government about 20-30 turns ahead of when you would get there if you researched Philosophy first and took Code of laws as your free tech.

Thanks... Eman

I am finding out that emperor level is tough. This is my problem with civ3... you need to master the "rules" to be successful. But I said that before I levelled up to monarch too.

It makes me think which is a good thing!

 

[choxorn]

That's sort of true for any game, though. To get better, you have to know all the tricks and which strategies work and don't work.

 

[tjs282]

If everyone who's going to has now posted a starting 20T, and everyone is in agreement with (or indifferent about!) continuing with this start, what is everyone's opinion on which starter-for-20 we're going to continue with? My tuppence worth is for speedbird's (great exploration!) or Lanzelot's (already-built Gran will help us get our Settlers out fastest, almost as close to Writing, and we still have potential tech-trades).

I do agree that we should be trying to snag the Wheat, but not at all convinced that this would be the best use of our first Settler out of T'heim -- not only is that area 2nd-ring (at best), which means it will be largely corrupt until Republic, but we also need to prioritise income right now for fast research. See the attached dotmap:

Despite my wish to get another Coastal city planted for the GLight-build (unless we can persuade Willy to do it for us instead...?), I would rather suggest (red Settlement-order) colonising upriver first (Grass 2N, 1NW from T'heim -- could maybe be our FP-town?), then the Plains(Desert?) due east of the small lake, and finally the Wheat (Coastal Plains south of the Wheat tiles) with our 3rd Settler (using the roads already constructed to connect the preceding cities). I don't think there's a huge risk that the Dutch or Russians will grab that site before we can, if we're doing 5T(?) Settlers out of T'heim, but an alternative needing only 2 Settlers (yellow Settlement-order) would be to plant our first new town on the Coastal Grass 2NE-1E from T'heim (build Harbour then prebuild GLight?), then the next town near the Wheat. I think the river-commerce would be more valuable for the slingshot though...

Could everyone also post or confirm their timezone, so we can sort out a play-order? (Choxorn: Are you really in Norway, or have you just hijacked Snerk's avatar and sig for a laugh/bet?)

 

[Synobun]

I've never kept track of one of these before but am regaining an interest in Civ3 "stories" and saw that choxorn was involved in this one. I'll be lurking although I won't be commenting in all likelihood as I only ever capped out at Monarch when I still played regularly.

I'll be shaking pom-poms at the sidelines. This reply serves as an easy way to show support and also 'watch' the thread.

(choxorn and I are both involved in an OT April Fool's event where we switch personas with other people, everything should go back to normal by next week!)

 

[Lanzelot]

Let me offer this one as the "optimum" of our combined efforts. I did, what I outlined previously:

4000BC: Found in place, start a Warrior, Worker goes 1N and will build a mine, then a road.
3750BC: Warrior is finished, Trondheim starts a Settler (prebuild for Granary). Warrior starts scouting northwest.
3450BC: Worker starts chopping the fur forest.
3300BC: We meet the Netherlands and trade Warrior Code for Pottery and 10g. Settler switched to Granary.
We also meet the Arabians, and could get Bronze or Ceremonial Burial for Alphabet, but of course I hold it back.
3100BC: I have to delay growth by one turn, as otherwise the Granary would be one turn late (wasting 10 food).
3050BC: Granary finished. Trondheim starts a Warrior. We meet the Russians. Again we could get CB or BW plus some gold for our Alphabet, but I hold it back.
3000BC: Trondheim will grow to 3 next turn and finish the Warrior interturn.
Russia now knows Alphabet?! Either they met the Netherlands and traded, or they researched it themselves. But I guess the first option is the case, as otherwise they would not have given us a tech for it, if they had it almost finished themselves.
I think now it will only be a matter of a few turns, before Arabia meets either the Dutch or the Russians and gets Alphabet as well. So I vote for selling it to them, while we still can. We would get CB + WC + 35 gold! It doesn't get any better than this...

The 35 gold (together with the 19 we currently own) would carry us through Writing, CoL and Philosophy, so we would manage the slingshot a couple of turns faster! But I leave the trade open for the team to decide. At the moment we have 16 turns left on Writing, but when T'heim grows next turn and takes the tobacco tile, and then grows another time in 5 turns, we can get that down to less than 10 turns from now!

I estimate roughly 25-30 more turns for CoL + Philo, so we would be ready to revolt in turn 55-60 (1625 BC - 1500 BC)!
I think, this is the best we can do from this start, so we should continue with this version.

 

[Lanzelot]

Your dotmap looks fine to me, except for one modification that I would suggest: the "fish town" can be put one tile closer to the capital (1N). The fish is only a 2f tile during Despotism and without a Harbor, so is not so important right now. And by the time we have a Harbor there, we should have had our first culture expansion. (Early Library with 2-3 forest chops?!)

And yes, the wheat is too far away to be useful at this point in time. It will probably need a Courthouse, before it can act as a 4-turner. So maybe town no. 4 or 5 and use it as Worker pump till it is ready for doing Settlers?