TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

if we're doing 5T(?) Settlers out of T'heim

It has nothing but 2-food tiles, it will take 5 turns to grow 1 size with a granary. We could probably do 5-turn Settlers, but we'd need to alternate between Settlers and something else (Archers, maybe?) while Trondheim grows back up a bit.

CIty 7 and 8 seem a bit cramped close together- do we really want to do CxC spacing in the first ring?

Could everyone also post or confirm their timezone, so we can sort out a play-order? (Choxorn: Are you really in Norway, or have you just hijacked Snerk's avatar and sig for a laugh/bet?)

As Vincour said, it's in April Fool's Day joke, I'm still in Pacific Daylight Time (GMT -7).

I'm in favor of Spoonwood's start- Lanzelot's second start is probably a little better, but it feels kinda cheap to me to go with what's basically a restart after lots of information about the surrounding area was already known. Let's make it a little more challenging than that.
 
@tjs282, Pacific time but working nights
@Spoonwood, I don't understand why we are talking about another world.
@Lanzelot, Your start is the most productive--because you saved 30 shields by not making any curraghs. Also we get lucky when the Arabs got some gold from a hut at the right time.

In my start, I decided to build two curraghs, after reading tjs282's first strategy post, and also I was inspired by reading about "Gandhi on the Rocks".

Why two curraghs?
Spoiler :
because there is a 50% chance of sending one in the wrong direction


Why did I not send a warrior or two on an overland scouting journey?

Spoiler :
A curragh covers more ground squares; also I was more interested in finding a local food source than a distant contact.


If we go with Lanzelot's start, we will get a free 25g + the knowledge that a wheat field exists + an additional important spoiler information from my start, that no one else has mentioned in public...

Here is an attached file for comparing starts & simulating the next turn-set.

Assuming we build warrior, warrior & settler after the granary:
  • Lanzelot: Granary in 3050BC, warriors in 2950 & 2850, settler in 2630, T'heim = size 2 after settler
  • Speedbird: Granary in 2800, warriors 2710 & 2630, settler in 2430, T'heim = size 2
In my next post I would like to comment on the dot map(s), but I am about to start a marathon double work shift...
 

Attachments

  • Vikings SG Start Comparison.zip
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Assuming we build warrior, warrior & settler after the granary:
  • Lanzelot: Granary in 3050BC, warriors in 2950 & 2850, settler in 2630, T'heim = size 2 after settler
  • Speedbird: Granary in 2800, warriors 2710 & 2630, settler in 2430, T'heim = size 2
We should not build a settler that early. Let's first get Trondheim to size 5-7. That'll be the best way to make fast research and get some good production going. If I would continue my current .sav as a solo game, I would now build (after the current Warrior) a Curragh, another Warrior (for MP) and a second Curragh. (Then maybe a settler to not go into unit upkeep too much, and then again other things until we can get into the 5-7 cycle. Ah, and before I forget: we will also need a Worker or two early on, to start roading towards our future town locations. The one upstream will probably be the first town?!)

Trondheim has enough good tiles to operate at size 5-7 while spitting out settlers. Three BGs, 2 furs and a river tobacco would be 12 shields and 14 commerce per turn at size 6 (which will be the average pop in a 5-7 cycle). We need 10 turns to grow from 5 to 7, making >100 shields during that time, so we can build the settler in the last 3 turns before hitting size 7, and then we have 70 shields for other things each cycle!! (We could even build Archers instead of Warriors for MP?! As preparation for a Berzerk mass-upgrade... :mischief:) Even a library can be squeezed in sometime, without messing up the settler-cycle!

If we spit out the settler already at size 4, we'll lose a lot of that extra production and research: average size will be 3 in such a cycle, which means 7 shields and 10 commerce per turn. 5 turns would be needed to collect 35 shields for the settler and then only 35 shields remain for other things.
 
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Your dotmap looks fine to me, except for one modification that I would suggest: the "fish town" can be put one tile closer to the capital (1N). The fish is only a 2f tile during Despotism and without a Harbor, so is not so important right now. And by the time we have a Harbor there, we should have had our first culture expansion. (Early Library with 2-3 forest chops?!)
I wasn't planning on building much if any Culture in the short term, hence planting next to the Fish to start with. If we did move it as you suggested, then there would be enough room for a 2nd-ring Tundra-town on the Coastal Forest ~3ESE. That said, colonising the Tundra should obviously not be a priority, since it will take a lot of work/time/chops just to get those towns to Pop6, never mind beyond that...
CIty 7 and 8 seem a bit cramped close together- do we really want to do CxC spacing in the first ring?
While dotmapping, I was generally placing towns at roughly CxxC (i.e. each town gets its immediate 3x3 radius, plus 4-5 additional tiles from the various overlaps, or Coastal-tiles), and Coastal for preference (for the SEA trait's +1cpt bonus). Admittedly I haven't done a detailed food-analysis for that suggested dotmap yet, but by eye, even at CxC, both those 2 towns should still be able to work 12 tiles for 24 FPT (albeit low SPT, like Kolossusstadt in Acronym's game), once they both have Harbours and/or we're running under Republic.
@Spoonwood, I don't understand why we are talking about another world.
Spoonwood offered his starting 20T on a newly generated map, as a Spoiler-free alternative (with a mysterious twist!) to our collective same-map starts. So far, only Chox has explicitly come down in favour of using it.
 
It has nothing but 2-food tiles, it will take 5 turns to grow 1 size with a granary. We could probably do 5-turn Settlers, but we'd need to alternate between Settlers and something else (Archers, maybe?) while Trondheim grows back up a bit.
Yes to both: letting T'heim grow and building archers.

CIty 7 and 8 seem a bit cramped close together- do we really want to do CxC spacing in the first ring?
As long as all cities will be able to get 12 tiles, it's no problem. And I think that's the case here. (Will need to double-check with a tile allocation map, though.)

I'm in favor of Spoonwood's start- Lanzelot's second start is probably a little better, but it feels kinda cheap to me to go with what's basically a restart after lots of information about the surrounding area was already known. Let's make it a little more challenging than that.
Spoonwood played a different map, just to show us some alternative ideas without giving away spoiler information about our map... ;)
 
Yeah I was looking at more of CxxC as well. That extra city on coast though, I was thinking 1 in, but I see that you want mostly coastal cities. I'm fine with Lanzelot's.
 
Woops, I meant Speedbird's start, not Spoonwood's. My bad!
 
Yeah I was looking at more of CxxC as well.
Don't forget, 'CxxC' can encompass a range of inter-town distances (for corruption purposes) from 3 (NE, SE, SW, NW) to 4.5 (N,E,S,W). If towns are placed at corruption distance 4-4.5, tile-assignments can usually be made such that each town can work 12 tiles with minimal to no interference, and a few towns being at CxC diagonally (corruption distance = 3) is also usually OK, so long as those 'crowded' towns have lower overlap with other towns, elsewhere in their BFCs.

In my dotmap, by virtue of being Coastal, NewCity8 has access to 5 exclusive tiles (2 Forest, 3 Coast) that no other city can use; and NewCity7 has 9 such tiles (1 Hill, 6 Coast, 2 Sea). They overlap by 7 tiles (3 of which are also shared with T'heim), but NewCity7 only needs 3 of those 7, giving NewCity8 at least 1 more 'semi-exclusive' tile (i.e. all tiles worked at Pop6), even if T'heim were to get all the others (which it won't, because in addition to its 3x3 radius = 8 tiles, it also has access to multiple other tiles to the south and west). And NewCity8 could also take its pick of most of the tiles to the north and east, because the Wheat City will likely need a Courthouse and a Granary before it will be ready to spit out Settlers on a regular basis, and it will need a Duct and a Harbour to reach Pop12 (which likely won't happen until the mid-game).
That extra city on coast though, I was thinking 1 in, but I see that you want mostly coastal cities
As a general rule, cities should either be coastal, or at least 2 tiles inland from the coast. Founding 1 tile away from the coast means you'll end up with 'unimprovable' water-tiles in that town's BFC, because you won't be able to build 'coastal-town only' buildings to increase tile-output. This is particularly wasteful of tile-potential with respect to Harbours, which ensure that 'fishermen' no longer require subsidy from food-rich (land) tile(s) in order to maintain town-growth at +2FPT (or better).

Building 1 tile away from the coast is also especially inadvisable when playing a SEA-Civ, because (1) all coastal buildings (including Commercial Docks and Offshore Rigs, if the game goes that far) are half-price, so can be completed quickly after the relevant tech is discovered, and (2) you also miss out on the Coastal-town commerce bonus. But of course, (like much else) the AI doesn't understand this... :rolleyes:

On this dotmap, moving 'NewCity8' 2 tiles inland would have impinged to a much greater extent on Trondheim and 'NewCity2', which can both get to Pop12 without a 'Duct, so shouldn't be cramped (I'd also like to place a 3rd river-town ~3WNW of 'NewCity2', in the currently fogged area); and also on the Wheat town. That's why I placed as I did

(EDIT: Moving NewCity8 1SW might also be a possibility, despite the resulting increase in BFC-overlap with NewCity7).
 
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Questions:
  1. I would like to get this game moving: Is speedbird's start (Post#51) acceptable to everyone as our definitive 3000 BC savegame?
  2. If YES to (1), since Elephantium has not yet played at all, I think it would be fair to let him take the next 20T (or 10T, as the team prefers) -- OK with everyone else?
  3. If YES to (2), is the suggested running order (in Post#1) acceptable? i.e.
    • Tusker (up)
    • Choxorn (on deck)
    • speedbird
    • me (if enough time before my 1-week vacation in mid-April, otherwise...)
    • EDIT: Nathiri
    • Lanzelot
    • Robbus
    • ...and round we go again
 
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Western scouting detail - 3000BC.jpg


Notice anything?
 
Notice anything?
I notice that the Arabs appear to be further away from us than the Russians, and also that it looks like we could set up a very useful chokepoint/canal town on that Hill. (I've found that well-garrisoned chokepoint-towns which don't completely block the AI's overland invasion routes are often more useful than those which do, because rather than throwing everything they have at the chokepoint, the AI instead tends to send its units past them. This in turn causes their fast attack-units to become separated from their slow defenders, allowing the attackers to be pinged/picked off more easily)
 
There is not much difference between Speedbird's and my (first) start, except that Speedbird first built the Curraghs and then the Granary will follow, while I built first the Granary and then the Curraghs will follow. Consequently, Speedbird has more exploration, while I have an extra citizen. I think the extra citizen will be stronger in this case, because:
  • Two nations already found us, so we got some initial trades going.
  • At the moment we have nothing to trade anyway, if we don't want to endanger the slingshot. By the time we are ready to trade again, the exploration in my attempt will have caught up and also found the necessary contacts. At the moment it doesn't matter whether we get these contacts 10 turns sooner or later. But the extra citizen will enable us to shave off a few turns off the slingshot and also to start expansion earlier.
  • Also Speedbird delayed growth by two turns (working a 1 food tile for 3 turns) in order to finish a Curragh faster. Delaying growth makes sense only when waiting for a Granary to finish, in which case it actually saves food, because the food box will remain half-filled, speeding up the next growth. In this case, however, this was not the case, so the food was just lost and cannot be recovered. In my opinion, this is bad. Food is everything, while having the Curragh 1-2 turns earlier does not matter.

So I vote for my start... ;)
 
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Questions:
  1. I would like to get this game moving: Is speedbird's start (Post#51) acceptable to everyone as our definitive 3000 BC savegame?
  2. If YES to (1), since Elephantium has not yet played at all, I think it would be fair to let him take the next 20T (or 10T, as the team prefers) -- OK with everyone else?
  3. If YES to (2), is the suggested running order (in Post#1) acceptable? i.e.
    • Tusker (up)
    • Choxorn (on deck)
    • speedbird
    • me (if enough time before my 1-week vacation in mid-April, otherwise...)
    • Lanzelot

I'm okay with all of this. I guess Nathiri and Robbus should be after Lanzelot, then?
 
I'm okay with all of this. I guess Nathiri and Robbus should be after Lanzelot, then?
Erk -- thanks for pointing out that I messed that up. No, Nathiri should have been put in that last place, not Lanzelot, according to the Plan... have edited to include everyone...

(Based on posting activity, I have been assuming that Nathiri is on the same side of the Atlantic as Lanzelot and myself -- or working nights as well -- whereas Robbus seems likely to be a North American. Guys, could you please confirm or correct?)
There is not much difference between Speedbird's and my (first) start, except that Speedbird first built the Curraghs and then the Granary will follow, while I built first the Granary and then the Curraghs will follow. Consequently, Speedbird has more exploration, while I have an extra citizen.
*snip*
So I vote for my start... ;)
I'd kind of figured that since you expressed a preference for Chox's start (over yours) in Post#46, and he then preferred speedbird's, that you would like that one (better) too... Guess I was wrong again.

Ooh ooh, I know -- let's let Elephantium decide which one he takes, and then surprise us! ;)
 
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Erk -- thanks for pointing out that I messed that up. No, Nathiri should have been put in that last place, not Lanzelot, according to the Plan... have edited to include everyone...

(Based on posting activity, I have been assuming that Nathiri is on the same side of the Atlantic as Lanzelot and myself -- or working nights as well -- whereas Robbus seems likely to be a North American. Guys, could you please confirm or correct?)
I'd kind of figured that since you expressed a preference for Chox's start (over yours), and he then preferred speedbird's, that you would like that one (better) too... Guess I was wrong again.

Ooh ooh, I know -- let's let Elephantium decide which one he takes, and then surprise us! ;)

I'm on Atlantic Time since I've been in the Caribbean for over a year. Since Daylight Savings happened for the US, it is the same time as EST (as there is no DLS here). I'm usually around most of the day, six days a week.
 
I'm in CDT: UTC -5 during DST.

I can play tonight or Friday night. I'm not sure what the plan is, though. Just keep exploring and grow the capital?
 
I'd kind of figured that since you expressed a preference for Chox's start (over yours) in Post#46, and he then preferred speedbird's, that you would like that one (better) too... Guess I was wrong again.

Well, if you look at the reasons of why I liked choxorn's attempt better than my first one, you'll see that it was because he started Writing and then got Pottery via trade, while I first did Pottery. Speedbird also did Pottery first -- but then got the Granary much too late for my taste. So it follows, that choxorn's start is better than both of our starts. (No idea, why he preferred Speedbird's over his own... :))
Actually, my second attempt was played in order to combine the benefits of choxorn's and my first attempt (avoiding the self-research of Pottery (choxorn), while still getting the Granary ready before the second growth (Lanzelot)) and also in order to avoid the slight inaccuracies of choxorn's version (three wasted worker moves and giving Alphabet away a bit early).

For some reason, though, choxorn's start was no longer up for election, there was only a comparison between mine and Speedbird's, that's why I voted for mine... But if we are looking at the complete picture, here is my order of preference:
  1. Lanzelot II
  2. choxorn
  3. Lanzelot I
  4. Speedbird
In any case: before we continue with the next turn set, we should clearly state, which one we are going to choose, then take a good look at that particular situation & discuss the plan for the next turns, and only then start playing...
 
My thinking was that in Speedbird's start, Writing will get done in about the same amount of time as in my start, even though he researched Pottery first, and he didn't have to make any tech trades to get it. He also used his worker a bit more efficiently, though I question why he didn't grow Trondheim to size 3. I thought my start's only advantage was that I'd built another Warrior and explored inland farther and met the Russians already.

Basically, my thinking is that the decision to go Pottery -> Writing was better, because it's at most a turn or two slower and meant we didn't have to give up any techs. I preferred Speedbird's start over your first one because I thought that building some units for exploration before the Granary was more helpful than just going with the Granary right from the start.
 
I am EST.

Overwhelmed by the amount of strategy being used to proceed. Wish I could contribute more.

This my weakness with civ3... terrain assessment and prospects for growth but I am getting better at it by reading the post.
 
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