TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

[Lanzelot]

So I guess that's it then: We don't need no Education...!

 

[choxorn]

(well, not yet at least, we could always decide we can use the library when the Ottomans are done with it and we're done with everyone else)

 

[choxorn]

Got a few more turns in, partway through Turn 5. Thought I should pause for team input because we've been discussing for a while who our next target should be, but it appears the Byzantines may have decide to weigh in on the discussion by declaring war on us, indicating they want us to go after them.

We could still also declare war on the Dutch and fight both of them at once, I suppose, and I cancelled our ongoing deals with the Dutch already, but even so, I thought that I should get some input before I have us fight 5 of the AI's at once (The Russians are still alive with one city, because of a few annoyingly hard to kill units of theirs)

Anyway, here's the next few turns:


Turn 2 (470 AD):

-After discussion, I decide to give Moscow to the Ottomans. We don’t need no education… yet. We can perhaps use the Library later. Since this will give them at least Invention and Engineering for free, I decide to give them Engineering (would have asked for something in return, but all they had was 2 gold), then trade them Invention for Theology and all 2 of their gold. Taking a quick look around at the other AI’s, I confirm that at least the Carthaginians and Byzantines have Education, which we obviously don’t want, and so I let the Ottomans have Moscow now.

IBT:

-Kufah: Galley->Galley

-Reykjavik: Galley->Galley

-Stavanger: Berzerk->Berzerk

Turn 3 (480 AD):

-Level 1 WW seems to have hit us. I turn up the Lux rate to 20% to fight it- but that won’t be needed for long.

@Vladivostok: vBerzerk dies to rPike, vBerzerk kills rPike, vBerzerk kills rSpear, city captured, and another Berzerk captures some workers outside the city (13-1)

-One of our “friendly” Galleys spots a Musket in Amsterdam. Well, that makes things a little harder…

IBT:

-The Russians and Dutch fight each other near Yakutsk, with the Russians killing a LBM and Two Horsemen and the Dutch killing a Spear.

-The Russians unload an Archer and an LBM near currently undefended St. Petersburg, and the Dutch send a Horse at them that gets killed by the Archer.

-Trondheim: Berzerk->Berzerk

-Copenhagen: Pike->Pike

-Reykjavik: Galley->Galley

-Birka: Berzerk->Berzerk

-Aarhus: Knight->Knight

Turn 4 (490 AD):

-A 4/5 Knight and a 3/5 Knight kill the Russian Archer and LBM near St Pete’s that the Dutch failed to kill over the interturn. (15-1)

@Yakutsk: A SINGLE FREAKING 2/4 PIKEMAN KILLS 4 ATTACKING vKNIGHTS!!!! (15-5)

Uuuuuggggghhhh. Well, that certainly hurts…

@Rostov: vBerzerk kills rPike, 4/5 Berzerk dies to rSpear but redlines it, 4/5 Horse finishes the Spear, captures the city and a couple of workers (17-6). We also gain some Dyes, helping out our happiness situation quite a bit- enough to let me set the lux rate back down to 10%.

-Capture a few more workers near Khabarovsk, the other Russian city in the area.

-Our deals with the Dutch are expiring, but losing 4 Knights at Yakutsk and not having the city as a way to get to some of the Dutch cities faster really hurts, and I decide to hold off on attacking the Dutch for another turn or two to let units heal and if not finish off Russia, at least take the final non-Yakutsk city. I do decide to cancel our deals, though- we’ve had Silks from our former Russian territory for a while, and there’s no real reason to keep paying the Dutch Furs for an Alliance against Russia.

IBT:

-The Byzantines declare war on us. A Horsemen walks into undefended Tver, the isolated ex-Russian city, and captures it.

-A Dromon sinks our exploring Galley, and an rLBM kills one of our Berzerks near Khabarovsk (17-8)

@Bergen: Berzerk->Berzerk

@Reykjavik: Galley->Galley

@Stockholm: Berzerk->Berzerk

@Stavanger: Berzerk->Berzerk

-The people build our Palace a 4th Floor and two side wings.

Turn 5 (500 AD):

@Khabarovsk: vBerzerk dies to rPike, vBerzerk kills rSpear, vBerzerk dies to rPike, vBerzerk kills the annoying Pike, eHorse kills 2/3 LBM, capture the city (20-10)

 

[tjs282]

Ouch. I guess Yakutsk became the new Russian capital after Moscow fell? (AFAIK, in addition to the usual terrain/fortification D-bonuses, a capital also gets the D-bonus of the next-larger town-size, i.e. a Pop1-6 Town gets the Pop7-12 City +50% bonus, and a City gets the Pop13+ Metro +100% bonus, making its garrisoned units (much) more difficult to defeat than equivalent units in non-cap towns).

Did you find the land-bridge to Byzantium yet? If yes, is it via Russia or Arabia? (If no, did the Byzzie Horseman attack Tver overland, or did it disembark from a boat?) I ask because the AI will preferentially come overland if a route is available. So if the bridge is via Russia, would it be possible to set up another Kufah-type chokepoint to harrass/kill incoming Byzzie-units, until we're ready to take their cities? (And if it's via Arabia, then we don't need to worry overmuch about the Byzzies yet, since the bulk of their land-units will arrive via Kufah). Either way, if we can contain the Byzzie incursions for now, then I would say, once you've done for the Russians, still go ahead and declare on the Dutch. Now that Dora's decided to get stroppy, I think we really do need the GLight to make sure that our boats can move along her shores faster than hers can move along ours.

And right now, we should really only be getting significant WW from the Russian war, but once that's over, that WW will disappear (and as our fast-units move to the Dutch front, they can quell the Russian resistors, so we can maybe get a little more income from our conquests). Also, once the Russians are down, we'd 'only' be fighting 4 AIs at once, not 5. And of those 4 AIs, 3 of them DoW'd us (giving us WH), and of those 3, only 1 of them presents any significant danger to us -- the Byzzies and their $#!**¥ Dromons. (I don't think we really need to count the Aztecs and Arabs as opponents of note, do we? Given our relatively few losses against theirs, I would have thought that we'd still be getting War Happiness from them?). So only 2 of those 4 wars would carry any significant WW-risk.

Willy's already been fighting Cathy for a while, so he can't have many soldiers left in his toybox. And Muskets 'upgrade' to SMercs, so if he's now building Muskets, that means that he has Salt but no Iron! So (1) it's unlikely that he'd have more than 1 Musket per town yet (he hasn't ever had the funds to mass-upgrade from Spears, has he?) and (2) if we can cut off the Dutch Salt-source(s), then he won't be able to build any more Muskets after our Zerks have killed the one at the top of each town's defender-pile: assuming 1 Musket, and 1-2 Spears per town, we'll probably need 5-6 Zerks per town-assault. Yes, we will likely lose 1-2 Zerks per town taken, but any successful full-health attackers can just climb back on a boat and move on to the next target (and even 3/4 Zerks might still be useful to take out Spears). So the coastal-assault portion of the Dutch war should be over relatively quickly, and in the meantime, our Knights should be able to take the few land-locked Dutch towns that our Zerks can't reach.

But I guess that will mostly be my job, so please could you try and make sure that I have 4-5 Knights left to do it with...? (If necessary, maybe consider cutting our Iron-source(s), building some Horses/Spears out of our less productive towns, and then reconnecting the Iron for the upgrades?).

 

[Elephantium]

What awful luck

I agree overall with tjs' analysis. Maybe switch a couple extra cities to knights for a few turns?

 

[choxorn]

Ouch. I guess Yakutsk became the new Russian capital after Moscow fell? (AFAIK, in addition to the usual terrain/fortification D-bonuses, a capital also gets the D-bonus of the next-larger town-size, i.e. a Pop1-6 Town gets the Pop7-12 City +50% bonus, and a City gets the Pop13+ Metro +100% bonus, making its garrisoned units (much) more difficult to defeat than equivalent units in non-cap towns).

I wasn't aware of that.

Even so, it had 2 HP left (at least the first time, it upgraded to Elite and I think finished as either a 2/5 or a 1/5 unit when all my Knights died), and I'm pretty sure it's on a Grassland, it really shouldn't be able to kill 4 attacking Knights!

Did you find the land-bridge to Byzantium yet? If yes, is it via Russia or Arabia? (If no, did the Byzzie Horseman attack Tver overland, or did it disembark from a boat?)

It's been clear for a while that there's no land between Russia and the Byzantines, even if that didn't get fully confirmed until I got to the last few Northern Russian cities and saw the coastline. It's via Arabia (Tver was on the other side of the strait between Russia and the Carthage/Byzantines part of the continent)

The Horse came overland. I saw it, and an AC heading South towards Tver the previous turn, but didn't think much of it because I didn't know whether they were heading for us or the Arabs- in any case, there wasn't much I could have done to defend Tver anyway.

So (1) it's unlikely that he'd have more than 1 Musket per town yet (he hasn't ever had the funds to mass-upgrade from Spears, has he?)

So far I've mostly seen only Spears from him, only the Musket in Amsterdam.

and (2) if we can cut off the Dutch Salt-source(s), then he won't be able to build any more Muskets after our Zerks have killed the one at the top of each town's defender-

Only problem is we don't actually know where his Saltpeter is, so we're kind of shooting in the Dark at this (well, not actually shooting, we can't shoot if we don't have Gunpowder)

What awful luck

I agree overall with tjs' analysis. Maybe switch a couple extra cities to knights for a few turns?

Will most likely do.

 

[Elephantium]

so we're kind of shooting in the Dark at this (well, not actually shooting, we can't shoot if we don't have Gunpowder)

You can shoot bows without Gunpowder

 

[choxorn]

You can shoot bows without Gunpowder

Bows? We have no use for bows, we have Berzerks!

 

[Elephantium]

Now that's the proper spirit!

 

[Lanzelot]

A SINGLE FREAKING 2/4 PIKEMAN KILLS 4 ATTACKING vKNIGHTS!!!! (15-5)

So much swearing in one sentence... Be careful that no moderator sees this...
(But as I can understand your frustration perfectly well, I'm certainly not going to tell any mod... )

Good attention to detail to first sell the Ottomans everything they would gain for free anyway...

And right now, we should really only be getting significant WW from the Russian war, but once that's over, that WW will disappear

I rather think that up to now we still had war happiness from the Russians and that the losses now went so high, that this WH disappeared. So no WW yet and consequently our happiness will not improve, when the Russians are gone...

And Muskets 'upgrade' to SMercs, so if he's now building Muskets, that means that he has Salt but no Iron!

Very good observation! And it also means, no GA for the Dutch! (We would definitely lose at least one fight against a Swiss Merc somewhere.) That should make the Dutch campaign a lot easier. If we could only see their saltpeter! Isn't there any deal available, where we could get Gunpowder for cheap?

AFAIK, in addition to the usual terrain/fortification D-bonuses, a capital also gets the D-bonus of the next-larger town-size

Are you sure about this? I've never heard this before. All I knew is that the capital gets the graphics Image of the next-larger town-size, when being displayed on the map or in F11.


Taking a look at the .sav now.

 

[choxorn]

I haven't actually checked to see what the prices for Gunpowder are.

 

[Lanzelot]

We can get Gunpowder from the Dutch for 690 gold, furs and dyes. Do we any longer care for our reputation at this point? If not, we could take that deal, position a unit on their saltpeter resource, and then backstab them...

BTW: we have way too much gold... 2700! Make use of it! So I think we can fight the Dutch and the Byzantine at the same time. We currently have 6 Berzerks and more than enough ships (9) in the Bryansk/Vladiwostok area. Rush 5-6 more Berzerks there, man the boats and then sail along the "half-moon shore" towards Constantinople.

10 Berzerks are already on ship ready for a raid on Amsterdam, that should be enough. So we can start the war by pillaging their saltpeter and taking Amsterdam. We have 7 Knights who could take at least one of Utrecht or Groningen on the first turn of war. (Position them in such a way, that they can reach either town: if we get lucky and can capture the first one with only 3 Knights, we can then immediately attempt an attack on the other one as well:

BTW: I think the river flows along the south side of Utrecht, but not 100% sure. Can someone with better eyes confirm this? If it runs along the north side, we should of course attack from the south.)
And we have a few Berzerks at the Utrecht/Groningen front, which can be used for land war as well, if they are covered by 2-3 Pikes. So I'd say go for it!

 

[Elephantium]

Can someone with better eyes confirm this

CTRL-SHIFT-M / CTRL-SHIFT-N will let you "hide" units, cities, roads, etc. Then you can easily see the river path despite the hills and Utrecht.

 

[tjs282]

Only problem is we don't actually know where his Saltpeter is, so we're kind of shooting in the Dark at this (well, not actually shooting, we can't shoot if we don't have Gunpowder)

I would guess that at least one of his source(s) is somewhere near Groaning'em -- that's the largest Desert area that Willy controls, and he founded there pretty early in the game.

We can get Gunpowder from the Dutch for 690 gold, furs and dyes. Do we any longer care for our reputation at this point? If not, we could take that deal, position a unit on their saltpeter resource, and then backstab them...

Hmmm... Not particularly worried about trade-rep (since very soon we're not going to need it anymore, are we?), but with 690 gold, Willy could immediately upgrade 5.75 of his Spears into Muskets. Do we really want him to do that in Amsterdam...?

Are you sure about this? I've never heard this before. All I knew is that the capital gets the graphics Image of the next-larger town-size, when being displayed on the map or in F11.

FTR, I can't remember exactly where I picked up the idea that capitals get a D-bonus that ordinary towns don't (maybe something that Justanick said?), but it would certainly explain that apparent SOUR in Yakutsk, wouldn't it?

 

[choxorn]

If we're going to say "screw the trade rep" anyway, why bother using 690 gold and not like, 40 gpt?

 

[Elephantium]

No backstabbing.

 

[Lanzelot]

No backstabbing.

In that case we just have to run over him so quickly, that he doesn't get the time for upgrading and building any more muskets... So use all our cash for short-rushing and rushing 10 more Knights and a few more Berzerks, and then hit him as hard as possible. I think we can easily take 6 towns on the first turn, and then it doesn't matter much, what he tries to build in the remaining ones... That's probably best anyway... why wast 690g... We should not let one Musket scare us...
Utrecht is defended by reg Spears, and so will probably be most other towns...

 

[Elephantium]

Agreed on cash-rushing lots of units. Everything with a barracks and 10+ spt can short-rush Zerks/Knights for 2-3 turn production. About 10 cities have raxes = ~4 units per turn. Maybe we should rush raxes in a few more cities?

 

[choxorn]

I mean, I can also always just pay the Carthagininans or Ottomans a ton of cash for Gunpowder, if you're worried about the Dutch having money.

 

[Lanzelot]

Probably not worth it.