TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

[Elephantium]

Good question! However, building an immediate Settler drops us to size 3; the idea is to pop out settlers at size 6 or 7, to keep our gpt up.

If we don't want to build the Barracks now, we could build two Curraghs, two Archers, or one of each before building the Settler. IMO we should definitely delay the Settler build so that it completes on growth to size 6.

 

[tjs282]

Let's see...we'll need a lot of Worker turns to get T'heim up to 10spt:

Who said anything about 10 spt? I agree, that's a good long term goal, but it doesn't help us build Curraghs and Settlers and Archers in the short term, whereas 7-8 spt works for all of those (albeit slower).

Grand total: 45 turns from now.

Then maybe we should think about spitting another Worker out of T'heim at some point, to help with roading the tiles (1T+3T per Worker per tile)? Once the tiles are roaded, then it's only 3T per tile for the 2 Workers to move onto and mine them -- same total Worker-turns required, but only half the game-turns. And once the mines are done, we could then either add one (or both) of the Workers back to T'heim, or start roading out to and improving our next city-sites.

T10: Settler at 28 + 2 = 30 shields and completes due to IBT growth. Move the Worker to the tobacco or other BG tile.

I'm not sure if I followed that, but I was wondering where you expected the growth-shields to come from? Because I don't think we can count on them coming from a Forest tile. There's no question that we could be sure of getting a Forest-tile on growth, if we were already running high-FPT, but until we can go to Republic and irrigate some Grass, T'heim will not be able to get more than +2FPT net.

And I'm pretty sure that, when growth is not constrained at Pop6 (by lack of freshwater/ a 'Duct -- not the case here), then even with 'Emphasise production' switched on, the Governator will always pick a tile for the new citizen, that maintains at least +2FPT net... That being so, then we would rather need an unworked mined BGrass available as our +2SPT 'new-citizen' tile on growth.

 

[Elephantium]

Who said anything about 10 spt?

I did! I agree that it's not a viable goal for the next two turnsets, but I think it's a good intermediate goal. Two-turn Archers or three-turn Swords. What's not to like?

another Worker out of T'heim at some point,

Yeah, just not for another 15-20 turns; we need City 2 first, IMO.

I'm not sure if I followed that, but I was wondering where you expected the growth-shields to come from? Because I don't think we can count on them coming from a Forest tile.

That's exactly what I was counting on. Seriously, Emphasize Production will really pick an unmined regular grass over a forest tile? So much for my analysis

 

[Spoonwood]

And I'm pretty sure that, when growth is not constrained at Pop6 (by lack of freshwater/ a 'Duct -- not the case here), then even with 'Emphasise production' switched on, the Governator will always pick a tile for the new citizen, that maintains at least +2FPT net...

I don't recall seeing the emphasize production bonus with a +2 fpt city myself. I think I've seen in a +4 fpt city, and also a +3 fpt city, but not a +2 fpt city.

 

[Lanzelot]

Elephantium's plan is good, except that we would be running a hefty deficit for quite a while. At the moment we are at -2gpt. With a Curragh and Barracks we would be at -4gpt, with 4 more units we would be at -6gpt. Our total income at the moment is 11gpt. That would slow down research too much. As much as I would love to time each settler with growth to 7, I think at this early stage we need to make one exception, otherwise unit upkeep will kill us.

Haven't done a food map yet. (I would have to use spoiler information in order to do it... ) But my gut feeling tells me that S of the river looks more "harmonious" than N of the river. In your dotmap, tjs, the distance between NC2 and NC3 is much bigger than between NC2 and NC8 -- and NC8 is already crowded by NC7! So it felt like the right thing to do to move NC2 closer to NC3, to give NC8 more space. In my experience 6 cities at RCP3 is possible most of the time -- if you then place the second ring a bit further out. In our case we lost one spot, because our capital is on the coast, but 5 should be no problem.

Starting the FP already now is highly unusual, indeed... But I can't think of many things that would be better at the moment. Our capital is providing for both, the settlers and the units (while growing back to size). And already we have the problem of "over-building" on units. A Forbidden Palace would kill two birds with one stone: avoid drowning in unit upkeep now and get back a big return on investment later. But perhaps we could also build a second Granary and then workers from that town? But that location is the best for the FP, and putting it on worker-duty would delay the FP too much. I think, a good role distribution would be like this:

1. town: FP
2. town: Granary and Workers
3. town: Barracks and Archers
4. town: Ships
Amsterdam: Great Lighthouse (Amsterdam is coastal, it's uncorrupted and it gets a 20% discount, so it is clearly our best choice for "our" Lighthouse...)
Moscow/Mecca: Artemis?! (Perhaps we need to build it ourselves in order to make sure it really ends up on the big continent. We'll know for sure, when we have all contacts and know the world-wide tech development and keep track of the wonder starts / cascade possibilities.)

Regarding moving the first town to the plains tile: I like to keep my first ring as tight as possible. (Minimize corruption. templar_x is a great master of this strategy.) Also in the early phase (which is the important one...), a plain is stronger than a grassland: takes 7 turns to improve, while a grassland takes 9. That changes a bit, when we get out of Despotism, but in this case I think, we have enough grasslands left for irrigation, even if we settle on one.

 

[choxorn]

Some thoughts:

-I'm also in favor of building the next city on the Northeast side of the river, same reasons as tjs.
-Trondheim can't stay happy above size 4 unless we raise the lux rate, which would either cost us gold or make us lower the sci rate.
-We probably do need more of, well, everything, at some point, and we absolutely need to start building more cities soon or we'll drown in unit support and the cost of keeping big cities happy.

We could try something like Curragh->Worker->Settler, or maybe swap something out for an Archer or some other building?

 

[Lanzelot]

On the other hand, NC2 has an additional hill compared to the purple circle. So if we replace that with a forest or mined plain, we have the following maximum shields at 24 food:
NC2: 18
Purple: 17
One is certainly corrupted despite the FP, so let's say 17 and 16 respectively. If we assume we build Berzerks for most of the game, that doesn't really matter: In either case the best we can do is: build one turn, rush MI for 92/96 gold, finish Berzerk at 2x17/16. So most probably we would give that hill to a different city anyway.

And I'm pretty sure that, when growth is not constrained at Pop6 (by lack of freshwater/ a 'Duct -- not the case here), then even with 'Emphasise production' switched on, the Governator will always pick a tile for the new citizen, that maintains at least +2FPT net... That being so, then we would rather need an unworked mined BGrass available as our +2SPT 'new-citizen' tile on growth.

Exactly. There has been an investigation some time back in one of the GOTM threads: a high-shield tile is guaranteed only if the town makes +4fpt or more. At +2fpt the governor always picks the highest food tile, and at +3fpt it depends: if there is a high-shield tile and a food-tile, the governor picks the one that has more commerce.

 

[Lanzelot]

-Trondheim can't stay happy above size 4 unless we raise the lux rate, which would either cost us gold or make us lower the sci rate.

Happiness is never a reason for limiting growth: even if the new citizen works only a 1-gold tile and then needs 1 gold for keeping him happy, we still have the extra shield to work with. And if all fails, you can still turn him into a scientist for 3bpt.

We could try something like Curragh->Worker->Settler, or maybe swap something out for an Archer or some other building?

We definitely need another Worker soon. However, doing it before the settler would again raise our upkeep, while it would improve tiles that are momentarily not needed (when Trondheim shrinks due to settler build). Settler first and then Worker avoids both problems. So maybe something like
Curragh -> Settler -> Archer -> Worker -> Archers till size 6 -> Settler
By that time the two workers should have provided for 10spt and we can swing into our perfect cycle.

 

[Lanzelot]

As we are doing this for robbus, and as no one has commented on this before, I think I should explain another point:

View attachment 468399
Here are my 20 turns.

I see that you are running 20% lux tax here. However, it is not necessary to keep every citizen content. As long as a city has the same number of happy citizens as it has unhappy ones, it will not riot! So in this example, with furs connected and one Warrior as military police, you could as well lower the lux tax to 0% and go 100% science!

Most probably this already explains, why in 3000BC you still have 23 turns left on Writing (compared for example to choxorn's start, where he has only 13 turns left. See how even seemingly small details can make a huge difference in the early phase?

 

[choxorn]

So maybe something like
Curragh -> Settler -> Archer -> Worker -> Archers till size 6 -> Settler
By that time the two workers should have provided for 10spt and we can swing into our perfect cycle.

Sounds good to me. I take it everyone else also approves?

On the FP- while that might not be a bad location, it might be better to put it in a city a little farther out to make better use of the effect greatly reducing corruption in the city it's built in- our second city won't have much corruption anyway.

 

[Elephantium]

Hmm...what do you think of building the Settler now? I wasn't considering that because it would kick us back down to size 3 for a few more turns, but unit support costs are going to be a problem.

Alternatively, we could run Wealth for a couple of turns, then build a Curragh, then Settler. It's an atypical move at this stage of the game, but hey, our production is outstripping our economy at this stage.

 

[Lanzelot]

On the FP- while that might not be a bad location, it might be better to put it in a city a little farther out to make better use of the effect greatly reducing corruption in the city it's built in- our second city won't have much corruption anyway.

We don't need to decide right away. If we find a better FP spot later on, we can still switch the prebuild e.g. to a Granary. But a prebuild for "something" might be a good idea in any case, before we drown in units...

Hmm...what do you think of building the Settler now? I wasn't considering that because it would kick us back down to size 3 for a few more turns, but unit support costs are going to be a problem.

Can the road be ready on time, if we build the settler now? If yes, I think it's no big deal, whether we do the Settler or the Curragh first. Seems both fine to me.

Anyway: whose turn is it now?

 

[choxorn]

It's my set, I've been waiting for people to decide what to build before I take it.

 

[choxorn]

Seems like all the discussion over the next few turns was over, so I went ahead and took my turnset:


Turn 0 (2550 BC):

-The Worker is 1 turn from finishing a road, which means it can build a road to the purple dot in 4 turns, before Trondheim could complete a Settler in 5. I decide to switch Trondheim to a Settler, to try to get us another city and keep costs down.

-Trade the Aztecs Alphabet for BW, CB, and 10 gold.

Turn 1 (2510 BC):

-Tech situation: The Dutch are even with us, Russia is up Masonry, Arabia is up Masonry and the Wheel, the Aztecs are up Mysticism.

-Drop Sci down to 60%, Writing still due in 2 at +2 gpt.

Turn 2 (2470 BC):

-The Curragh spots the edge of the Aztec borders, a little bit inland.

IBT:

-Russia is annoyed that our exploring Warrior is in their territory. I tell Catherine we’ll leave.

-We get Writing, start researching CoL, could be done in 28 turns at -2 gpt at 100% or 30 turns at -1 gpt at 90%, since we only have 28 gold I decide to leave the sci rate at 90% for the moment.

Turn 3 (2430 BC):

-Out of curiosity, I check to see what our neighbors will trade for Writing. Russia will offer Masonry and all 45 of their gold, Arabia will offer Masonry or the Wheel but not both. I don’t make any trades.

-The exploring Warrior finds the Dutch’s inland borders.

Turn 4 (2390 BC):

-Nothing of note.

IBT:

-Trondheim: Settler->Curragh

Turn 5 (2350 BC):

-After looking through what other people said and thinking it over a bunch, I decide to go with tjs’s NC2 for the spot to send the Settler. I send him with an Archer escort, just in case, since Trondheim doesn’t need two MP’s to keep the peace at the moment.

-Worker starts a mine on the newly roaded river grass tile.

Turn 6 (2310 BC):

-Found Bergen on the NC2 Spot, have it start an Archer, due in 10, pre-build for whatever seems appropriate to build, we can switch it to something else easily.

-With the added unit support, bump sci bank to 90%, CoL due in 23 turns, -1 gpt, 24 gold in the bank.

Turn 7 (2270 BC):

Nada.

IBT:

-Trondheim: Curragh->Archer

Turn 8 (2230 BC):

-Send the Curragh South, around the peninsula to our Southwest.

-The other Curragh sees another island, maybe small, maybe not, to the East of the one the Aztecs are on. I tell them to check it out.

Turn 9 (2190 BC):

-The Island goes farther Southeast than I was thinking it did.

Turn 10 (2150 BC):

-D’oh! I forgot to send the MP back to Trondheim and now it’s about to be unhappy for the 2 turns it will take to finish its new Archer. Bump up the Lux rate to 10% to keep it happy. CoL slows down by a turn.

-Western Curragh finds the Southern tip of the peninsula near us, and Eastern Curragh finds what seems to be the edge of the island East of the Aztecs. I guess it’s not that big after all.

-Judging from the Warrior’s explorations, the edge of the land around the Dutch comes very close to the edge of the Aztecs’ island.

-The Archer in Bergen can reach Trondheim next turn, one turn before it would finish its own Archer, or Trondheim can build something else.




For the future:

-I have both our cities building Archers right now, sort of as a placeholder- we could build some Archers, or we could switch to something else.
-The exact amount of time CoL takes will probably change a bit as our cities grow and the amount we spend on the Lux rate varies.
-I don't think we should trade Writing yet, but eventually, we might be able to get something for some of our techs- the Arabs and Aztecs both have quite a few techs we don't have, and everyone has some cash.

 

[Speedbird 95]

I am up. my plan is to think about strategy on Monday & write a summary, wait for feedback on Tuesday & play on Wednesday.

 

[Lanzelot]

Looks very good so far.

Tip on micro management: Trondheim can switch the roaded BG to the tobacco tile. Gets us one extra commerce while still finishing the Archer in the same time.

This would reduce CoL from 19 to 18 turns. And how about switching Bergen's BG to a river grassland? Would reduce CoL to 16 turns!! (And we don't need the production there urgently at the moment. Any prebuild would probably overrun anyway, before we get Masonry. By reducing production now for a while, the 60s Granary may be sufficient until we finish the slingshot and then get Masonry!) (I wish we had done this from the beginning. Then CoL might already be down to 14 turns?!)

We need to squeeze out every possible coin at the moment. It may mean the difference between achieving and missing the slingshot...!

In any case: yes, don't trade Writing around! We need to hold on to it like Master Yoda held on to Luke's torch lamp...

Hmm, when looking at our exploration so far, I get the feeling that all this could be one big continent... So much for "archipelago"...

 

[Lanzelot]

I have been thinking a bit about our mid-term strategy.

It looks like, if we focus totally on commerce now, we can be a Republic in approx. 20 turns. At that point then, we could irrigate 3 grassland and turn Trondheim into a 4-turn settler factory! I think, this is stronger than trying to get it to 10spt. So in anticipation of that, what should our Workers do? In order to get the extra shields from Golden Age, we should irrigate BGs and mine ordinary grassland. Obviously, it would be a waste of worker turns, if we mine the BGs now and then later change it to irrigation. So we should leave the BGs un-mined for now. Just build roads and otherwise improve the strong river-grasslands, as they will give us the most commerce now, and will need mines in any case.

This also indicates, where our next town should be planted:

This town would have access to two commerce-rich river-grasslands, further speeding up our research.
So the new Worker, we are going to build soon, should already improve the tobacco and build a road towards purple circle. (Unfortunately the Settler will need 2 turns to get there, but the road will be useful nevertheless: reduced corruption and extra commerce for the new town, once it's up and running.

Once the two Workers have improved those river tiles (which can be used by Trondheim as well), Republic should be close, so the Workes can then start irrigating the furs forest and the two yet unimproved BGs, so we'll have +5fpt as soon as we become a Republic!

 

[Spoonwood]

Alternatively, we could run Wealth for a couple of turns, then build a Curragh, then Settler.

As I think Lanzelot suggested, once you have The Republic you can use irrigated furs and the two bonus grasslands on the southern side of the river (irrigated tiles with at least one shield give you two in a golden age). At size 6 Trondheim then would have 5 fpt, 1 shield for the city center, 3 from the irrigated tiles, 2 from the mined bonus grassland, 2 more from mined regular grassland. That makes for +(1, 3, 2, 2) = 8 shields per turn at size 6. Does that sound like a lot of overrun and wasted shields after Trondheim has finished producing settlers?

Since the city grows ever other turn and picks up shields from the forest, instead of building a unit every turn, you could run a two-turn wealth-worker pump in Trondheim. Actually, you wouldn't need to mine one of those grasslands, since in The Republic you can get 3 shields from the furs. Just don't let some other city use those furs on the turn that Trondheim grows.

Or maybe it's better to chop the other furs and use that tile also for more commerce instead of using one of those bonus grasslands.

 

[Spoonwood]

At that point then, we could irrigate 3 grassland and turn Trondheim into a 4-turn settler factory!

At size 5, Trondheim can only produce 7 shields per turn. So, it can't produce a warrior in a single turn. It's not a 4 turn warrior-settler combo factory which relies on a really strong start anyways. Trondheim can get 10 shields on each growth turn from 5 to 6. +(10, 8, 11) = 29. That's one shield short of 30 shields. But, you have four forests around. So, if you manage to find a bonus grassland in one of those forests, and then mine it, then you could have a 4 turn wealth-settler combo factory (which can't run as a 4 turn warrior-settler factory). Though, you guys would want to make sure that such chops went to something useful and would need timed out precisely. I don't where you would want the shields to go, but if you don't want them going to Trondheim you could swap your settler build with a wonder build for a turn when the chop will complete. Then the shields will not got to the capital and will go to another city if that forest lies within it's radius. To tell how many turns you have left on a chop you don't need to know when it got started. You only need to right click on the worker and it will tell you how many turns left the worker has to chop. Then, of course, you tell the advisor to decline your cancellation orders.

 

[Spoonwood]

Trondheim can get 10 shields on each growth turn from 5 to 6. +(10, 8, 11) = 29.

Wait... no! It's better than this! You cut the other furs and irrigate them. Don't cancel any of the mines already built. You then have 10 shields on growth from 5 to 6. 9 shields on the first turn at size 6 (using the tobacco). And then 11 shields on growth from size 6 to 7. That makes for a 4 turn wealth-settler factory. Use the queue to help with management, perhaps.

You need 4 turns to irrigate for each tile that needs watered. That's 12 turns. 3 turns for movement to the furs, the tobacco square, and the non-roaded bonus grassland. 3 turns for each road built, for 9 more turns. And 6 turns to mine the tobacco. Minus 1 turn for when the mine on the tobacco completes.

So, +(12, 3, 9, 5) = 29. You have 19 turns left on Code of Laws, whatever time you need for Philosophy, and the time of the revolution, which slows down worker speed. Thus, starting now you can set up the wealth-settler factory up and have it ready to go soon after you become a Republic... if the slingshot succeeds.