TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

Spoiler Rant :
Every decision we make in Civilization involves a trade-off versus something else we could have done. While I was using the fur-forest to finish a curragh, the worker was chopping the forest. The forest chop was complete on the first turn after the curragh, so the chopped shields went into the granary instead of the curragh.
I could have gone warrior--> curragh-->granary, but warrior-->curragh-->curragh-->granary wouldn't have worked out without delaying growth a little bit.


I was thinking about sending one warrior to block the Arabians from settling in our direction.
 
Sounds reasonable.

So which is it? I can see good reasons to pick my start, Speedbird's, or either of Lanzelot's, depending on what people prefer.
 
I don't have any strong preferences about which start to use, except for a slight bias against Lanz II (due to spoiler info).

I think we have the following:
1 vote for choxorn's start
1 vote for Speedbird's start

Any other votes?
 
FWIW, I also have a slight bias against Lanz II due to spoiler info, like I said before, and I'd probably rank the other three starts Speedbird > Me > Lanz I.
 
I don't have any strong preferences about which start to use, except for a slight bias against Lanz II (due to spoiler info).

I think we have the following:
1 vote for choxorn's start
1 vote for Speedbird's start

Any other votes?
I also agree that Lanz II should not be used, since it relied on Spoiler-info for optimisation. You and Lanzelot are probably the two highest-level players on the team, so I think we can safely trust your collective judgement: if Lanzelot still ranks Chox's start above LanzI, then I'd say go with that, but since you're going to play next, the casting vote is yours... *buckpass*

Yes, the general plan at this stage is continue with exploration, continue towards the Republic slingshot, and get T'heim up to size for Settler-building. Chox's start won't reach Pop4 for another 10T -- the main weak-point compared to LanzI, which will get there in 5T -- so it should then probably start doing 5T-Settlers at 6 SPT, with Warriors/ Curraghs at 5 SPT while it grows back to Pop4). Not sure what Lanzelot would say to this though...
(I'm thinking probably :eek: :cringe::gripe:) :joke:

If you do start Settler-builds, do you have any comments on my dotmap?

Bearing in mind that if anyone (Willy?) gets/trades Writing before us, we should start a prebuild for GLight, because we do not want to miss out on that Wonder (gives our Galleys M=5, and allows them to 'hide' in Sea-tiles until they're ready to plunder).
 
Okay, so I rechecked the save, and noticed that the reason why my Writing wasn't faster than Speedbird's and Lanzelot's despite me starting earlier was that Trondheim was having two citizens work zero-gold tiles, for some reason. The worker is 1 turn from chopping the forest, which I think means one of the citizens could be moved there now without slowing growth (worker moves come before everything else, right?), and maybe we could also work the tobacco/river tile, speeding Writing up to 16 or 13 turns depending on the tiles we work.

So silly of me, I couldn't figure out why Writing was so slow until I came up with that obvious solution. :crazyeye:

Actually, with that taken into account, I think I'm back to agreeing with Lanzelot, finishing Writing 8 or 9 turns faster because I went with it from the start is worth the price of trading away Alphabet, and I think I like my extra Warrior a little more than Speedbird's extra Curragh at this point. My Granary should finish around the same time as Speedbird's- I'll shave off a few turns when the forest chop finishes, he'll shave off a turn or two when Trondheim hits size 3, but mine had slightly faster growth. Lanz 1 has the fastest growth, but doesn't really have much else.

So, my start, then?
 
The worker is 1 turn from chopping the forest, which I think means one of the citizens could be moved there now without slowing growth (worker moves come before everything else, right?), and maybe we could also work the tobacco/river tile, speeding Writing up to 16 or 13 turns depending on the tiles we work.
Exactly. If a worker says "1 turn left", when you click on it, you can already treat that tile as if the worker job would already be finished, because it will be finished by the time commerce, food and shields are accounted for: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/interturn-mechanics.443195/
So that means: when we will road the furs next, don't forget to reduce the lux slider by 10%, when the worker has "1 turn left" on the road! Otherwise we'll waste a few coins. Better put these coins into Writing.

My Granary should finish around the same time as Speedbird's- I'll shave off a few turns when the forest chop finishes, he'll shave off a turn or two when Trondheim hits size 3, but mine had slightly faster growth. Lanz 1 has the fastest growth, but doesn't really have much else.

Well, "food is everything"... So I have everything else.... ;)
But seriously: I have to double check choxorn's .sav. Up to now I was under the impression, that choxorn's Granary would finish in time for the third growth, while Speedbird's would be ready only for the fourth growth. But if choxorn's is only ready for the fourth growth as well, it might be a bit too much of a handicap?! (Lanz I and II both have the Granary ready for the second growth, so that means two extra citizens by turn 31. And I think, two extra citizens at that early stage of the game easily beat everything -- including 8 turns saved on Writing. I'll double-check the saves now and let you know.)

In any case, it looks like the majority of the team is against using spoiler information, so Lanz II is out. The question is now to decide between choxorn and Lanz I.
 
Ok, let's go with choxorn's. The Granary will be ready on time. (Unfortunately 3 full worker turns were wasted here by roading the furs before chopping (and probably a few coins were wasted as well, by not working the tobacco and by not reducing lux in the turn before the road on furs was about to finish), but it is only one citizen behind Lanz I while being 8 turns ahead on Writing.)

The action log for the next 10 turns should probably look like this:
  1. Switch the two citizens working the unimprooved BGs to the tobacco and the furs tile. The forest on the furs tile will disappear interturn, so we still have 2 food but lots of extra commerce. (Pay attention to when the Granary will finish. We will have to switch the tobacco tile back to unimproved BG for a turn, as 1 shield is missing for the Granary!)
  2. Worker mines the furs and then improves one of the BGs
  3. After Granary is finished, build an Archer for MP and then a Curragh.
 
I definitely could have been better if I didn't waste 3 turns by road->chop, but at the time I hadn't met anyone yet and so I didn't know if I could chop the forest before getting Pottery, and I wanted to make sure I got the Furs hooked up soon to avoid having to raise the Lux tax to keep Trondheim happy.

I'd say that's a great plan. Make sure to micromanage carefully with the tobacco and the BG's to try to get both the Granary and Writing done as fast as you can!
 
Lanz, why an Archer for MP? I generally stick with Warriors for pre-Barracks units.

Edit: Ah, nevermind. I see now -- the MP unit will push us over our support limit, draining our gold. Building the Archer will be just in time to prevent a riot vs. two turns of upkeep on a Warrior.
 
Turn report:

Change citizen assignments: Mined BG (Bonus Grassland), tobacco, roaded fur forest (anticipating chop)

T1: Granary is now due in 6, growth in 9,
Worker starts a mine.

T2: I check for trades; Netherlands lacks WC (Warrior Code) but isn't willing to give us anything for it :(

T4: Netherlands now knows WC.

T6: Granary is done. I'm building an Archer.

T7: Furs mine is done; Worker moves 1W.

T8: We meet the Aztecs overseas. They know BW (Bronze Working) and CB (Ceremonial Burial). They're willing to offer both, plus 10g, for Alphabet. It's tempting to trade since everybody else already knows Alpha, but I'll wait a few turns in hopes that they get gold from a goody hut. We're not desperate for those techs yet, anyway.

Also, Arabia knows Masonry now.

T10 (2550 BC): Archer completes, just in time to pacify our 4th citizen! We're building a Curragh next.

Writing is due in 3 turns. We have 16 gold @ -2gpt (but we'll run out in a projected 6 turns because of the second Curragh in progress).
 
Things are looking good. I'm next, from the order a few pages ago, right?

  • Tusker
  • Choxorn (up)
  • speedbird (on deck)
  • tjs (if enough time before 1-week vacation in mid-April, otherwise...)
  • Nathiri
  • Lanzelot
  • Robbus
How do you all feel about the trade with the Aztecs that Tusker mentioned?
 
How do you all feel about the trade with the Aztecs that Tusker mentioned?
I'd say let's take it. Writing is almost finished, so we should be safe now. Also the Aztecs must be isolated: certainly there is no second big continent with 4 nations on it on an "archipelago" map...

Lanz, why an Archer for MP? I generally stick with Warriors for pre-Barracks units.

Edit: Ah, nevermind. I see now -- the MP unit will push us over our support limit, draining our gold.
And don't forget, what kind of mass-upgrade we are planning for... Warriors are sometimes useless after switching to Republic, but a few archers we can keep.

Question now is: what do we want to build after that Curragh? A settler is still a bit early for my taste, but we may be forced to build it in order to get rid of the unit upkeep.
In the case we go for the settler, our Worker should already build a road on that river grassland:

Trondheim_2550BC.png


Then our settler can move to the purple circle in one turn. (It's a good town site, because towns on rivers can grow beyond 6, so should be founded before non-river towns (other things being equal). The mine on the BG would not speed up our settler (5x6 = 30, 4x7 = 28), so we have time for that road and can then return for the mine afterwards.

After the settler, we could build two more Archers, while growing back to size, and then perhaps another Worker?!

Ideas for the new town? Barracks? Forbidden Palace prebuild?
 
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I agree with the city spot on the river. I think we would probably want to build a bit north so to block off some territory from the AI then, but maybe a city west is in order before that?
 
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I'd say let's take it. Writing is almost finished, so we should be safe now. Also the Aztecs must be isolated: certainly there is no second big continent with 4 nations on it on an "archipelago" map...


And don't forget, what kind of mass-upgrade we are planning for... Warriors are sometimes useless after switching to Republic, but a few archers we can keep.

Question now is: what do we want to build after that Curragh? A settler is still a bit early for my taste, but we may be forced to build it in order to get rid of the unit upkeep.
In the case we go for the settler, our Worker should already build a road on that river grassland:

View attachment 468934

Then our settler can move to the purple circle in one turn. (It's a good town site, because towns on rivers can grow beyond 6, so should be founded before non-river towns (other things being equal).
Agree with the road, but my dotmap put the next river-town on the north bank of the river (i.e. the Grass 1NE of your marked spot), specifically to reduce overlap with T'heim -- which may need its western BFC-tiles to allow more land-tiles to be used by the 2 projected eastern coastal cities (not to mention the southern town, which you wanted to put closer to T'heim than I did). Have you already done a food map, to make sure that we'd be OK putting Town2 on the south bank instead?

Settling on the north bank would still be a 1T move from T'heim to Town2, and it would also be that much closer to that 1-tile lake, where I wanted to found a 3rd (or 4th) city. I was also thinking that we could put a 2nd-ring city (maybe the future FP town? This is a Standard map, after all) further upriver from Town2, but on the south bank again, roughly due west of it; the nearest coast to that site is 3-4 tiles away to the SW, so placing like that would still allow space for several more 1st/2nd-ring cities along the west-running coast
The mine on the BG would not speed up our settler (5x6 = 30, 4x7 = 28), so we have time for that road and can then return for the mine afterwards.

After the settler, we could build to more Archers, while growing back to size, and then perhaps another Worker?!

Ideas for the new town? Barracks? Forbidden Palace prebuild?
Isn't it a bit early to start an FP-prebuild? I'd say let Town2 just build Warriors/ Chariots/ Archers for MP in newly founded towns (we won't just need Archers for upgrading later, but also Swords/ Horses to go and kill the Russians and the Dutch first), while T'heim does Settlers and Curraghs. So maybe a Barracks, but not necessarily immediately.

It also occurred to me, that if T'heim was at 7-8SPT, we could build 2 Archers (or a Rax), then a Settler (or a Harbour) for 4 shields total wastage (without MM). This would need 10T in total, i.e. 2 growth cycles at 2FPT. If we mine all the visible BGrass, I think we could run this plan at Pop4-Pop6 -- but if we mine the riverside (B)Grass, we could do it at Pop5-7, for much more CPT...?
 
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Let's see...we'll need a lot of Worker turns to get T'heim up to 10spt:
1 turn to finish the road, 1 turn to move north, 3 turns to road the river grassland, then 6 turns to mine the current BG;
1 turn to move to the tobacco, 6 turns to mine, 3 turns to road,
1 turn to move to the southern BG, 6 turns to mine, 3 turns to road,
1 turn to move to the second Furs forest, 4 turns to chop, 6 turns to mine, and finally 3 turns to road.

Grand total: 45 turns from now.

Currently, T'heim can have 5-7 spt: 5 spt if we work two riverside tiles:

A4Bxr8B.png


7 spt if we work the two unimproved BGs instead:

iPIKZw7.png


How does this sound for a plan?
T0: Citizens work tobacco and riverside tiles: City gets 5spt (Curragh due in 3).
T1: Road completes. Start mining. Now we work the roaded BG and either the other BG or the Tobacco. That puts us at 6-7 spt.
T3: Curragh completes. Start a Barracks. Work one BG.
T4: Barracks is at 6 shields.
T5: T'heim grows to size 5; shields from the IBT put the Barracks at 14 sheilds.
** At this point, we're still making 6-7 spt because we don't want to slow growth by working the forest.
T6: Barracks completes; start Settler. Mine completes. Move Worker to riverside tile. Now we're making 7-8 spt.
T7: Settler at 7 shields. Start Lanz's road.
T8: Settler at 14 shields.
T9: Settler at 21 shields. Lanz's road completes.
T10: Settler at 28 + 2 = 30 shields and completes due to IBT growth. Move the Worker to the tobacco or other BG tile.

Spoiler :


To analyze, I just counted shields for a baseline:

T1: 5-7 shields. Road completes. Future turns are at 6-7 spt.
T2: 11-14 shields. Start mine.
T3: 17-21 shields.
T4: 23-28 shields.
T5: 31-37 shields.
T6: 37-44 shields. (+2 for growth!). Mine completes. Future turns are at 7-8 spt.
T7: 44-52 shields. Start Lanz's road.
T8: 51-60 shields.
T9: 58-68 shields. Lanz's road completes.
T10: Size 6; 67-78 shields (+2 for growth!).

Then I tried a few different ways of subtracting shields for building different things, e.g. building a Warrior first instead of a Curragh means that T3-on loses 11 shields from the list.



* One important thing: We need more cities before we drown in unit support costs. *
 
Then our settler can move to the purple circle in one turn.

Lurker's comment... take it for what it's worth.

Starting from the purple circle I would have probably founded the town at the "7" spot on the plains out of force of habit. My recent reasoning goes that such a spot would maximize the production and growth potential of the city. I mean, if you found on a hill, you gain food, but lose a shield. If you found on a plains spot, you can still potentially irrigate the grassland. If you did get to rails, the plains spot also gives you another shield... at least as calculated before corruption.

But, if you plan on getting your production up and not worry about maximizing growth or irrigate just a little elsewhere, then founding on the purple circle or tjs282's spot . tjs282's spot *might* have more shield potential depending on what lies underneath that forest.
 
T5: T'heim grows to size 5; shields from the IBT put the Barracks at 14 sheilds.

If you do that, then you'll have a few more turns paying for the upkeep of the barracks than if you went settler-barracks-military/settlers.

Also, I'll note that the barbarians are set to "restless". Unit support does make for an issue with one city, but do you want fewer stronger units out scoping out territory to kill barbarians with less territory scoped or do you want more, but weaker units out with more territory scoped/going for promotions to veteran/elite and gold?
 
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