TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

[Spoonwood]

After all: we need to find the Byzantines soon, if we want to get a shot at their freeby during era change.

TjS seemed to have a different idea on that. Maybe that's something that you want a consensus on. How many barbarians might run at you from the age change? Sure they aren't ranging, but still. You can always try making all adjacent squares visible at the age change and then moving units away and let them regroup so you can attack them for experience. Also, can they produce many boats to mess up your boats at this level?

 

[tjs282]

I realised this morning that Trondheim might not waste as many shields as I thought it would after all -- if I were to let it get to Pop7 before starting the Settler-build, and if it doesn't riot on growth (good point on WH, thanks). It needs 34 shields to finish the Lib, and at current settings should get 5+5+2+6+6+2=26 shields from Pop5 to Pop7, plus the chop-shields. So the Lib would overrun by only 2 shields.

My (ideological) problem is the food waste at Pop7-8, though: even if I could re-fill the Gran at 5 FPT in 4T, collecting 7 SPT + 2 growth-shields (if I don't need to make Geek to keep order...), and dropping to Pop6, I (think I) would then lose half the 20 stored food (at Pop7), wouldn't I? i.e. I wouldn't be at Pop6 with 20 food in the box (and get immediate growth back to Pop7 on the next IBT), but only 10 food, and possibly not enough time to balance the food + shields to build a Settler before Pop7 again.

So yeah, I will probably have to MM carefully. Looking at that screenie, I should be able to get 5+5+2 shields to Pop6, then 6 SPT + 2 FPT for the next 2T (using the still un-chopped Forests) = 24 shields and 4 food in the store. The Lib should then complete using the chop-shields, and then I'll have to try and find 9-10 SPT and 2 FPT for the next 3T, to build a Settler at Pop6-7, and drop us back to Pop5, ready to pump. Not sure if that's do-able yet: I may need to do some more experimental juggling during preflight, to see what I can get by stealing irrigated BGrass from adjacent towns (would rather leave Reyk alone though). Or waste a little food at Pop7...

EDIT: The 1st para is all nonsense. Trond needs 44 shields to finish its Lib, not 34. So neither of the following paras are really relevant either. I could just switch it to slow growth right now -- I can easily do 8-9 SPT + 2FPT, by working both Forests. But since the Worker is all ready to chop, I don't want to waste more turns moving him back to Cope's BG, so I can do faster growth for less shields, and even things up at Pop6

Spoonwood:
No, I'm happy with the Galley-build in Cope (for exploration), just not the food-overrun. I could even the food-box up by working the Forest for 1T before it's chopped, instead of the irrigated Grass -- which would also speed the Galley-build -- and then go back to the iGrass for 2T at 3 FPT + 3SPT (which would also get me 1-2 Forest-shields on growth). Then I just need to top off the Galley-shields, and send it off to meet 'Dora (Where do we think she is? North of Arabia? If so, the shortest route is probably through Arab waters...)

Lanzelot:
According to CAII, the Dutch already have Map-Making, and so do the Aztecs. But if Monty finishes Pyramids first, then Willy should cascade to GLight in Amsterdam, since he doesn't yet have Philo or Poly. And in Robbus' 'World' screenshot, I can't see any decent coastal cities in Russia -- Moscow isn't coastal! -- so they might not be able to build GLight for us so easily. Buuuut... maybe we could gift them Poly, so they can do ToA instead...?

 

[Spoonwood]

My (ideological) problem is the food waste at Pop7-8, though: even if I could re-fill the Gran at 5 FPT in 4T, collecting 7 SPT + 2 growth-shields (if I don't need to make Geek to keep order...), and dropping to Pop6, I (think I) would then lose half the 20 stored food (at Pop7), wouldn't I?

You might lift all extra citizens not needed to complete the settler or worker build and use them as tax collectors or scientists for a single turn or two. I'm not saying that works out better... just an option.

 

[Lanzelot]

My (ideological) problem is the food waste at Pop7-8, though: even if I could re-fill the Gran at 5 FPT in 4T, collecting 7 SPT + 2 growth-shields (if I don't need to make Geek to keep order...), and dropping to Pop6, I (think I) would then lose half the 20 stored food (at Pop7), wouldn't I? i.e. I wouldn't be at Pop6 with 20 food in the box (and get immediate growth back to Pop7 on the next IBT), but only 10 food, and possibly not enough time to balance the food + shields to build a Settler before Pop7 again.

You might lift all extra citizens not needed to complete the settler or worker build and use them as tax collectors or scientists for a single turn or two. I'm not saying that works out better... just an option.

Also remember, there is always the option of "shortrushing", now that we are a Republic. I.e. if you can't get the required 30 shields, before Trondheim reaches size 7 again, you could shortrush a couple of additional shields into the box via "Worker after turn 1" or "Archer after turn 2" (or even "Archer after turn 1", depending on how many of the 30s can be done by "normal" means). I hope we have some spare cash for that?!

And yes, if you drop from size 7+ back to 6, you lose food: the food bin will be half full (10 food), no matter how much food it contained before the drop. (This was implemented as a "fix" for the bug they had in Civ2, where it was possible to build 1-turn settlers without ever going down in population, by exploiting the fact that "a half-full food-bin at size 7 equals a full food-bin at size 6"... Don't remember exactly how it worked, but somehow you could micromanage the town to grow twice in a single turn, like: the town grows from 6 to 7, but not the "size-6 bin" was half-emptied, but the "size-7 bin" was, so it still contained 20f. Then the settler completes, town dropping back to size 5, food-bin shrinking in size, but still containing the 20f. Then the game noticed "oh food bin is full, so I need to grow" and immediately growing back to size 6, food-bin now half-emptied to contain 10f. So with +10fpt and some cash for (short-)rushing you could build 1-turn settlers... Quite powerful exploit...)
Anyway: therefore in Civ3 it does not make sense to collect food while being at size 7+: it makes no difference whether you have 10f or 39f in the bin, when the settler completes: next turn you will always have 10f in it (half-full food-bin). So when reaching size 7 during the completion of the Library (or the Settler that follows), try to give all irrigated tiles to neighboring towns instead and maximize for shields.

According to CAII, the Dutch already have Map-Making, and so do the Aztecs. But if Monty finishes Pyramids first, then Willy should cascade to GLight in Amsterdam, since he doesn't yet have Philo or Poly. And in Robbus' 'World' screenshot, I can't see any decent coastal cities in Russia -- Moscow isn't coastal! -- so they might not be able to build GLight for us so easily. Buuuut... maybe we could gift them Poly, so they can do ToA instead...?

Good idea, we should definitely do that! Maybe wait a few more turns to see whether they come up with anything useful to trade (why gift them the stuff, if we may as well get something for it... )

 

[Lanzelot]

Oslo (rAxe + rArcher):
Building a rSpear(!) in in 15T at 1 SPT, but will grow in 2T at 3FPT, wasting 1f. I think I'd rather build something else --anything else! -- here. Since we're drowning in unit-upkeep, maybe switch the Spear-build to a Courthouse (either as an FP-prebuild, or to speed any further builds), and send the garrisoned Warrior out exploring the Mountain(s?) in that black fog just to the north (there should be at least 1 Mountain, where that river starts).

Prebuilding the FP in Oslo is also an idea that should be seriously considered. I didn't suggest it, as with a hot war going on -- well, I thought we ought to have at least one town building some military...

So what are the pros and cons? Oslo would be a very good site for the FP, and we still have unit upkeep problems at the moment. For repeling the occasional Arab Warrior we have enough units, and one of the next towns we are going to found can still get Barracks and start building military later.

On the other hand, if we would have a few more units soon, we could afford sending a small stack to Arabia to take up the offensive. I think once we have 2-3 Horsemen for home defense we could afford to send a stack of 1 Spearman (already got that one) and 5-6 Archers to take and defend Kufah once it grows to size 2. Further Horsemen can then press forward into Arabia after that.
Also we can then send out units to scout the Dutch and Russian territory. (And we could put a Horseman on our scouting Galleys to explore the interior of the Osman/Aztec continent and the Carthage landmass.)
In any case: I guess it should be safe already now to send that one Warrior to scout the black territory between Amsterdam and Moscow (and then continue south along the Russian west coast - perhaps by then Kufah is already ours and we can continue scouting into Arabia towards Carthage).

Where is Theodora? I think we need two Galleys: one goes NE towards Amsterdam (dropping off a Horseman on the western tip of the Osman/Aztec continent) and then around Osmania to discover the unexplored coastlines over there. ("Mission Yellow")

The other one can go to Amsterdam too, and then turn westward towards Russia and finally Carthage. (The path around Arabia will be much longer, as there is no channel between Arabia and Carthage, and also the entire coastline from Trondheim to Carthage is already known to us...) ("Mission Red")

Theodora must be somewhere in those questionmark areas. "Mission Red" probably has the higher chance to meet her, and also the much longer way to go, so we should start it first. Also it doesn't need a Horse on board, so can start right when that Galley in Copenhagen is done.
(On the other hand: if we expect to get Kufah real soon, then Mission Red could be shortened quite considerably by going through Kufah towards Carthage! But I guess there is no guarantee that Kufah grows any time soon: Arabia is still despotic, right? So they will always pop-rush a Spearman as soon as the town gets to size 2... )

 

[tjs282]

Something else that occurred to me, looking at the minimap: even if I cheat and also look back at everybody's initial 20T-spoilers (yes, I did!), just from the exploration that has been done in this game so far, we can't yet be sure that Kufah isn't actually forming a canal to an inland sea, with Moscow sitting at the east end of the northern landbridge. Mission Red would certainly resolve that question...

Playing now...

 

[robbus]

View attachment 470084 A lot for me to learn today after reading lanzelots post #220.

My thinking for barracks was getting some vet units available in case of conflict. Two civs threatened us during my turnset and made me nervous. I would rather fight with vet units as would us all of course.

My worker management is problematic. Even with 4 workers I made some bad choices. With the comments provided I will try and up my game!

Thanks for the input.

As an aside : how do you upload pivcs in the text of a post rather than as attachments?

 

[tjs282]

I have played a fairly intense 5 T so far, and am pausing (for breath) here, and for some

All tidy-up MM has been done, and our towns are chugging nicely (for now, but I can still mess it up again...). Trond's Lib has been built, and it can now build its Settler as it hits Pop7 in 3T (with near-zero waste). I also have another Worker online, and I have met the Byzantines (with the nearly-sunk rCurragh that just limped past Carthage!). 'Dora had nothing to trade with us.

We will get Maths in 1T (still a monopoly), and per Spoonwood's suggestion, I am going to go for Currency next, now that our Settler-and Worker-pumps are online.

Everyone OK with sending the next Settler to found a town 2N of Copenhagen, i.e. the orange dot in Elephantium's dotmap:

If we rather go for the White (or Green) dot, I'd want to send the eSpear and a vArcher with him...

Robbus:
Once you've uploaded a file, you should see an option at the bottom of your post "Insert as: Image/Thumbnail". Having placed the cursor where you want the picture in the post, just click on 'Image'.

(My wife's just come home from visiting a friend, so) I'll finish my turns tomorrow

 

[Lanzelot]

We will get Maths in 1T (still a monopoly), and per Spoonwood's suggestion, I am going to go for Currency next, now that our Settler-and Worker-pumps are online.

Better go for Construction: with only one lux resource, we don't need Marketplaces yet, but will definitely need Aqueducts soon. And I don't think, we can rely on the AI to come up with either tech. After all, this is only Emperor, and so far the AI hasn't really convinced me in terms of research speed....

Everyone OK with sending the next Settler to found a town 2N of Copenhagen, i.e. the orange dot in Elephantium's dotmap:

Hmm, not sure whether we should better push "orange" one tile further out to get more coastal tiles into range? We should probably do a food map before we make that decision?!

Congrats on finding Theodora!! I had completely forgotten about that Curragh... Thought both of them would have been sunk by now... (In any case I didn't expect it to go back to Carthage. Rather thought it would continue westward around Osmania and then get home for upgrade.) So in that case we can skip Mission Red altogether?! The Curragh is already doing it from the other side... Let's keep our fingers crossed that it will get back home safely after that Odyssey...

 

[Nathiri]

I have played a fairly intense 5 T so far, and am pausing (for breath) here, and for some

All tidy-up MM has been done, and our towns are chugging nicely (for now, but I can still mess it up again...). Trond's Lib has been built, and it can now build its Settler as it hits Pop7 in 3T (with near-zero waste). I also have another Worker online, and I have met the Byzantines (with the nearly-sunk rCurragh that just limped past Carthage!). 'Dora had nothing to trade with us.

We will get Maths in 1T (still a monopoly), and per Spoonwood's suggestion, I am going to go for Currency next, now that our Settler-and Worker-pumps are online.

Everyone OK with sending the next Settler to found a town 2N of Copenhagen, i.e. the orange dot in Elephantium's dotmap:

If we rather go for the White (or Green) dot, I'd want to send the eSpear and a vArcher with him...

Robbus:
Once you've uploaded a file, you should see an option at the bottom of your post "Insert as: Image/Thumbnail". Having placed the cursor where you want the picture in the post, just click on 'Image'.

(My wife's just come home from visiting a friend, so) I'll finish my turns tomorrow

I think, if possible without loss of time, we should take the White dot or Green dot. The orange dot, or further out like Lanz suggests, is a rather safe spot and the AI may take the white dot very soon, but if we arnt worried about that, and we need a city less corrupt with better tiles now, then go with the orange "area".

 

[Elephantium]

I'd prefer white or green dot next. A food map for orange is a good idea.

Currency or Construction both sound good. Who is the most powerful rival? If they have all prerequisites to Construction, we *might* be able to get them to research it for us. Maybe.

Otoh, I'm not in a huge hurry to get Ducts online...pointy stick expansion will do more for unit support than ducts.

 

[Spoonwood]

Better go for Construction: with only one lux resource, we don't need Marketplaces yet, but will definitely need Aqueducts soon.

What's the estimated time on Monarchy if you were choose to research it, and what is it's cost in comparison to researching both Currency and Construction?

 

[Spoonwood]

Or another method, Currency and Construction have an estimated total cost of 1080. At -1 gpt, in the 1000 BC save, Maths would take 7 turns and you would make 31 beakers per turn. 31 beakers per turn would make for 35 turns on both Currency and Construction. Once they learn maths will it take the AIs say 25 turns to learn Construction? Are they that poor at researching here? A 42 turn build on a 100 shield aqueduct averages to 2.38 shields per turn. And Copenhagen makes 3 shields per turn. But this doesn't account for work done, and workers can increase you research rate faster than they can increase your shield production. You also have that library coming in which can increase the research rate by 6 beakers per turn, but I think actually even more with Trondheim at size 6. 37 beakers per turn yields a 30 turn run on both Currency and Construction. You would need some city which needs an aqueduct thus to have an average of 3.3 shields per turn... given a prebuild of a market gets used. No city which exists in the 1000 BC has that yet, and in general you will get more beakers from roads than you will get shields from mining or using a forest, won't you? You only get 1 extra shield for mining, but you consistently get more than 1.5 beakers for a road in a Republic, especially in an inner ring city, don't you? Also, the above analysis only takes into account research at -1 gpt, but you will do a little bit more deficit research than that, won't you? And I didn't take into account TjS picking up maths sooner.

And what about horizontal expansion? Will planting a new town have any effect on research, though it doesn't have much effect on a town that needs an aqueduct?

I guess it doesn't really matter, though.

I do appreciate reading this though. I simply don't recall ever considering researching Construction before Currency. At the very least, I'm thinking about what things might be like if I did that.

Oh... researching Construction then Currency though potentially slower, has a greater probability of spawning an SGL. If you learned Currency and traded for Construction, you have a 3% probability of getting an SGL. If you learn Construction and then Currency via research, you have a 5.91% probability of spawning an SGL (1 - the rate of failing to get an SGL times that number, which is .97... so absolute value of ((.97 * .97) - 1) = .0591).

 

[Spoonwood]

As an aside : how do you upload pivcs in the text of a post rather than as attachments?

On my Windows machine, I've learned I can just hit print screen and then use "ctrl + v" to copy the picture into the thread. This seems substantially easier than the old system... and do we have some sort of limit on posting pictures?

 

[Synobun]

On my Windows machine, I've learned I can just hit print screen and then use "ctrl + v" to copy the picture into the thread. This seems substantially easier than the old system... and do we have some sort of limit on posting pictures?

AFAIK, no. Although if it ends up being that someone runs into a hard-cap, there's always image-sharing websites that can be used.

 

[robbus]

for what it is worth I prefer expanding towards your rivals is better than expanding away from them...ie North (white) or west (green) is better than southeast as far as land grab goes. But you trade land for corruption. Ektarinaburg is a Russian mistake IMHO

OTOH Aztecs maybe setting up shop near orange too. In 1000 they launched a galley west before our southern Curragh sank and lost sight of it. This may still be on route with a settler on board. Destination unknown.

As was pointed out to me in another thread: CIV3 is a land game and not a naval game as much, especially early on. Which means you take as much nearby land asap, before your rivals. Dutch settler was wandering around north of Bergen during my turnset, where are they now? I guess I shall have to wait to see tjs save... hehehe.

Our military is weak, far weaker then I would allow in my past life as a monarch level player. The team doesn't seem to care so much about this, why?. Is it because our rivals are "polite" towards us? Then why did they threaten my turns, TWICE!

I am on team white.

(plus my avatar is: )

 

[Elephantium]

Early war isn't that threatening -- look at Arabia; they really only sent 3 Warriors to try to scare us. Once the land grab finishes, we'll need a bigger military -- but still, we'll just need a few Horsemen to cover our borders, and another 6-8 to start capturing cities. The AI isn't going to flood us with more units than we can handle, not at this level.

 

[choxorn]

If we move the orange NE, then we're just two tiles South of Yekaterinburg, which will be fine if we immediately build some culture there, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[Elephantium]

What does culture have to do with moving the Orange Dot? We're just going to conquer Yekaterinburg in another 20 turns or so...

 

[choxorn]

I was just thinking about flipping the tile between them, which would make getting to Yekaterinberg a little easier. Probably not a big deal, but again, something that's worth thinking about.