TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

[Speedbird 95]

A brief update and some questions...

I have played 1.5 turns and it is now 530 BC.
I have set the science rate to zero and am rebuilding our military.
My intention is to buy currency for literature from either Carthage or Netherlands, whoever gets it first. Or the science rate can be restarted.
I have not started a wonder/FP pre-build, we should be able to rush the FP with a leader.

Question: we have the opportunity to buy silks + 1g from the Netherlands for either furs or construction, and then lower our luxury rate to zero, which is worth 9g/turn. Is it OK to make one of these deals?

I am assuming our first target is Amsterdam. We have 9 turns left on our alliance + ROP, and the Dutch lack only construction, literature & republic. The Russians know construction but the Dutch are almost broke.

Also, I am planning Oslo as a worker pump, and thinking about using Bergen as our settler pump and letting Trondheim grow & build market + wonder

Finally, I am wondering how we are going to deal with a barbarian uprising when we enter the middle ages.

 

[tjs282]

However, all this is still long-term stuff. Let's think about the tasks right ahead of us. The next turnset is a very critical one for the course of the game: we will enter the Middle Ages this turn set (with the help of a bit cash collected from backwards and scientific AIs), and then we will need to gift up the Germans, Byzantines and Ottomans and collect their freebees using our optionals (Republic and Literature). With a bit of luck, we can then already start on Invention right away.

Are you proposing breaking into the diplo-screens during the IBT (using 'What's the big picture?'), or 1T later (seems like the latter, if you want Speedbird to post a save)? And do we gift them all up, see what they each get, then try and trade for at least Feud+Eng? (But what if they all get Theo?)

Best case: we get both Feud+Eng from trading, and can start on Invention immediately -- even at 50T, we'd still likely get there first, as the SCI-Civs research whichever 1st-tier tech(s) we haven't supplied them with
Intermediate case: we get 1 of our 2 target-techs, but have to self-research the other (if this happens, I think we should start a Leos prebuild, since we will then have plenty of time to do it...)
Worst case: all 3 SCI-Civs get Theo, and we have to acquire both Feud and Eng by other means

If that last happens, what are our options? Just bank gold while we wait for the SCI-Civs to research Feud+Eng for us, then buy/ extort them? Research one, and hope we can trade for the other? If so, which tech-target would be the better choice? Hard to see how we'd get a monopoly on either of them: the AI loves Feud (a new gov, a new unit, a Wonder and a prereq for 2 further techs), so any newly Medieval-ised civs will almost certainly research that one first, albeit making it cheaper for us when they get/trade it. IIRC, Engineering's more expensive than Feud, but given the state of our infrastructure, we'd probably have to 50T it: by which time someone else will likely have finished/traded for both Feud and Eng, and possibly started on Invention (unless we've crippled the global economy by dragging everyone into our wars)

Is it possible to gift up/ trade with the SCI-Civs one at a time, to ensure that they each get a different tech? i.e. even if the first gets Theo (blah), can we somehow ensure that the 2nd gets Feud/Eng, and the 3rd gets whichever we're still missing? (I suspect not...)

I doubt that Leonardo will pay off in this game: there is no connect/disconnect possible for the Archer->Berzerk upgrade, so we can upgrade only those Archers we'll have completed by the time we get Invention. How many will that be? At the moment we have 5. Leonardo is great, if you can do connect/disconnect, but in this game I think, we'll be lucky if we even reach the "break-even point".

On my set, we managed 15T research on Construction, but only at a severe deficit. So I don't think we'll be in any danger of 4-turning Invention, even if we have multiple Libs chopped/built by then... So how would it be, if we start a Leos (pre)build somewhere (Stockholm?) once it has what it 'needs' (CH, Lib?). Then when we start researching Invention, we don't race for the tech at deficit, but rather move a little slower towards it, while banking Gold and stockpiling Archers (if we can do both -- I realise more Archers = more unit support, but I did suggest getting our towns up to Pop7+ to deal with that, some time ago...)?

Either Leos, or our first (upgraded Archer ->)Zerk-win, will trigger our GA, and then we'll be rolling in cash to upgrade our Archer-pile (even if we can only do it piecemeal for the first couple of GA-turns), not to mention using the GA-shields to pop out Zerks/Galleys every 5-10T from our Rax-/ Harbour-towns. That should give us the springboard we need to win relatively fast from that point, even if Invention takes 30-50T to finish...

 

[tjs282]

A brief update and some questions...
I have played 1.5 turns and it is now 530 BC.
I have set the science rate to zero and am rebuilding our military.
My intention is to buy currency for literature from either Carthage or Netherlands, whoever gets it first. Or the science rate can be restarted.

If we still have the tech-lead, then please don't lose it -- especially not to the Russians. We want them beholden to us, not the other way round. I would say, research Currency as fast as you can.

I have not started a wonder/FP pre-build, we should be able to rush the FP with a leader.

Sounds fair enough. But we haven't really got a suitable town to (pre)build a Wonder in yet, have we? If we do it in Trond, we can't use the Palace...

Question: we have the opportunity to buy silks + 1g from the Netherlands for either furs or construction, and then lower our luxury rate to zero, which is worth 9g/turn. Is it OK to make one of these deals?

I would say, don't make any per-turn deals with the Dutch, we are likely going to want to DoW them very soon, and we don't need to break our GPT-rep yet...

I am assuming our first target is Amsterdam. We have 9 turns left on our alliance + ROP, and the Dutch lack only construction, literature & republic. The Russians know construction but the Dutch are almost broke.

Please don't DoW until Willy has finished GLight for us. Don't think Chox mentioned that happening already in his log...? Also, is Cathy doing what she's supposed to, and building SoZ for us?

Also, I am planning Oslo as a worker pump, and thinking about using Bergen as our settler pump and letting Trondheim grow & build market + wonder

Didn't we build a 'Rax in Bergen [EDIT for brainfart] Oslo, so it could do military...? So by all means, make Bergen a Settler-pump if you can, but not Oslo -- Yek'burg can do Workers/Settlers too, once it's ours...

Finally, I am wondering how we are going to deal with a barbarian uprising when we enter the middle ages.

Barb-camps can only appear in non-observed (fogged) tiles, i.e. >1 tile beyond a culture-border (any border), and >1 tile from a unit (>2 tiles, if the unit is on high ground). So you could found Black and Blue to expand our borders southwards (5T of ToA-Temple Culture pops their borders), and/or post 1-2 Archers along the southern treeline, facing across the Tundra, to prevent barb-camps from spawning there. Then the Russians and Dutch and Arabs will have to deal with the barb uprisings instead.

 

[Spoonwood]

Cities which flip back to their previous owner during wartime are (AFAIK) counted as 'lost' cities, and losing cities racks up the WW-points very fast.

I actually had asked this in the thread you had linked to. The answer seems that NO flipped cities do NOT increase war weariness. This works as consistent with how cities can flip during peace time.

 

[Lanzelot]

Don't give away Literature or Republic. If Currency becomes available and you can buy it for Construction: fine. But not for Lit/Rep.

Furs for silks from the Dutch should be ok. We will still need 20 turns to complete our build-up, and if we have some military before that, we can always go for Arabia first. Arabia can be attacked without Lighthouse, so it's not that urgent.

Can you post a save? I think it is still too early to take Trondheim off settler-duty. 3 - 4 more Settlers are still required to get us off the ground. If Bergen is really capable of doing 4-turn settlers already, you could both of them run as a settler-pump for a while. But we also still need plenty of Workers.

Keep researching. There is enough free cash available from the AI, and I don't think the AI will be fast enough for our purpose. And now with silks available, we should be cruising along and finish Currency in less than 10 turns.

@tjs282: don't over-estimate the tech prices on Emperor... 50T research?? No way. With a few more towns getting online now and Workers being joined to Library towns (as soon as they hit size 7 and have enough improved tiles) we will be able to do any MidAge tech in less than 20 turns.

 

[robbus]

dear speedo: I am happy you are paying attention to military. I am used to playing with more (much) defensive capability. I liked barracks in worker pump Bergen because you can switch to producing vet units quickly if needed. The GPT spent on maintenance is worth it IMHO.

 

[Speedbird 95]

I am writing from another computer & can't post a save today.

I am thinking construction for silks, if we need silks at all. I am guessing Willy has an entertainer or two in Amsterdam, furs will increase his effective population and science output for 20 turns but not increase his shield output for the Lighthouse because he has gone stupid with irrigation instead of mines.

Of course we are not going to trade Lit or Republic to a scientific civ without getting their freebie. My plan was to buy currency for Lit and then a round of trading with the scientific civs on the same turn. Actually I will end my turn set and post a save as soon as currency becomes available, and let everyone practice some diplomacy.

Bergen has no barracks.

There will be no war with the Dutch during my turn set unless they sneak attack us.

I sold math to the Byzantines (else they would buy it from Carthage) but the Russians don't know math yet.

I have a galley on fog patrol and can send an archer to the tundra in 3 turns.

More details on military strategy to follow later...

 

[Lanzelot]

My plan was to buy currency for Lit and then a round of trading with the scientific civs on the same turn.

This will not work: if Lit and Rep are not monopoly (or appear monopoly to them), they will not be expensive enough to get a middle age tech for them!! I repeat: don't sell Lit and Rep to anyone. (Even if that "anyone" does not yet have contact to a scientific tribe at the moment, there are certainly the first Curraghs/Galleys out by now, and we don't know who is going to meet whom in the next 10 turns.)

I sold math to the Byzantines (else they would buy it from Carthage) but the Russians don't know math yet.

Are you listening to anything we are discussing here in this thread?!
We want Russia to build Zeus for us! They need to start now, if they are to finish it before we are ready to roll. Therefore I had recommended to sell Math to them for their spare cash in your preflight. If they now have no cash anymore, then for gods sake gift Math to them.

One more point: I haven't said anything so far, but I think I better do so now. Every one of us so far first posted an action plan, gave the team a chance for input and adjustments, and then played his turns afterwards. You just took the save and started playing without stating what you are going to do and apparently without heeding the advice given by all of us after Choxorn posted his save.
One thing I can't stand is, when many people spend lots of time and effort drawing up a strategy and an action plan and trying to explain everything in detail, and then the next player just comes along, overrules the team decisions and does the opposite, without even commenting on the previous team input or giving the rest of the team a chance to discuss the pros and cons!
We say "collect the spare cash and continue research at full speed" -- you set research to zero.
We say "sell Math to the Russians, so they can finally start Zeus" -- you don't.

This is not, how a Succession Game should be played! Even if your decisions are better than what the team had discussed so far (which I think they are not), you can't make such fundamental strategic decisions on your own! Post your ideas first, get them approved by the team majority and only then play them in-game.

 

[Lanzelot]

I liked barracks in worker pump Bergen because you can switch to producing vet units quickly if needed.

"Town specialization" is a key ingredient for success. A town either pumps Workers or builds military, but not both. No need to "switch" production. You have to consider: at the moment, our resources (shields and gold) are very sparse. It's really bad to build improvements that a town will not need for a long time to come (wasted shields) and then pay maintenance for them (wasted gold).

 

[tjs282]

I liked barracks in worker pump Bergen because you can switch to producing vet units quickly if needed

Sorry Robbus, think I might have confused things there. I wrote 'Bergen' in my post above, when I should have written 'Oslo' -- I've edited accordingly. My intended question/point was, (I'm pretty sure that) Chox built a Rax in Oslo(?), so that's where we should build military, not Bergen...

NB We did have a Rax in Bergen (I think you might have built it?), but I sold it very early in my turnset, because while we were/are Worker-pumping, there was no point spending building-maintenance on something that gave us no real benefit.

Spoiler :

Remember, [our] Archers can usually beat [Arab] Archers and [Arab/Barb] Warriors on attack (A=2 vs. D=1), gaining combat-promotions from reg to vet fairly easily in the early game, thus don't 'need' to be vet to start with. OTOH, Horses should ideally be vets straight out of the gate, because (1) the other Civs will likely be sending out D=2 units (Swords or Spears, as well as Archers) by the time Horses are buildable (and Barbs will certainly have Horses), reducing victory-probabilities, (2) Horses are 50-150% more expensive to build than Archers/ Warriors, so can't be replaced as quickly nor risked as lightly, and (3) if a fast-unit gets redlined first while fighting a (M=1) opponent, it has a higher retreat-probability as a vet, than it would as a reg (and higher again as elite, than as vet).

(And we shouldn't necessarily re-purpose/ dismantle the Worker-pump yet, because those 2T-Workers can (later) be used to bump Pop7+ cities up to their maximum capacity, much quicker than they could grow naturally. Consider: 10f harvested over 2T in Bergen, gives 1 new pop-point; a Pop7 non-Gran town would take 10-20T to harvest the 40f needed for the same growth)

@tjs282: don't over-estimate the tech prices on Emperor... 50T research?? No way. With a few more towns getting online now and Workers being joined to Library towns (as soon as they hit size 7 and have enough improved tiles) we will be able to do any MidAge tech in less than 20 turns.

I need to look at the save, but I was doing a back-of-the-envelope estimation: we needed ~20T on Construction, while running a severe deficit, and the Mid-Age techs are significantly more (2x) expensive, so I figured we would be looking at least 20-25T for them as well, maybe more. Not necessarily the full 50T -- that was just an idle suggestion for going after Invention, while also banking loads of gold -- but there's no point getting the tech in the minimum possible time, if we then have no gold left to upgrade our Archer-stacks, is there? Especially if we don't build Leos...

On which subject (sort of):

While I agree in principle with what you said to Speedbird -- I was also surprised to see him start play without any preflight-post -- I think a gentle prod is also in order here. While I have the utmost respect for your Civ3-skillz and planning ability , you do also seem to exhibit a tendency to expect/demand that people play (SGs) your way, or no way... I know that you like to be dramatic, and that your idea of a 'fun' game is one which is optimised to the max. but Deity-level attention to detail and sacrifices are not needed to win at Emp on a Standard-size map (if it was, I wouldn't be able to!).

Take Leos (for example ): while it may well be true that we don't need to build it to win, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it anyway, just for, you know, the fun of it . Building Big Impressive Architecture just to show that we can, could also be 'fun' for some of us. Robbus started this game not yet even convinced that Emp is winnable, never mind manipulable (kind of like me, at the start of ABLES-SG) -- although I hope he'll have learned enough by the end of it to change his mind. And as I've said to you before (also in ABLES), I'm not looking to break any HoF-records here, either.

So could I ask to you to chill out a little, please...?

 

[Lanzelot]

tjs282: don't misunderstand my intention: I don't expect everyone to play the SG "my way or no way". For example, when we got the SGL, we had a detailed discussion about the pros and cons of all the possible wonders, everybody stated his arguments and then we made a decision together as a team to go for the Pyramids. That was perfectly fine for me, even though it was not my first choice. But this is my point: we were all able to state our preference, weigh the pros and cons and then make a majority decision. In this case, however, Speedbird overruled the decision to "research at max" all by himself without even telling anyone. If he thought that his strategy was better than the one currently followed, he should first have posted something like "Hey guys, we are currently researching at max, but perhaps it's a better idea to go zero science and see wether the AI comes up with Currency for us. What do you think?" And not simply going ahead in "solo mode" and ignoring the rest of us.

And also, what really pisses me of is, if I spend an hour or two thinking about a good plan and describing it here in detail for everyone, and then someone comes along, does not even respond to what I wrote, but silently ignores it and does the opposite. This to me is like wasting two hours of my life's time. The least I would expect in a team game is, that if you disagree with a proposition I or any other team member made, you reply to it with something like "I think that this alternative plan here is better because of argument1 and argument2." Then we get a chance to talk about it, exchange pros and cons and in the end come to a team decision. But not simply "man with mouse in hand decides"...

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, back to the game. I think we need to come to a conclusion about whether we want full research, or set research to zero and wait for the AI to discover Currency for us.

If we really decided to go zero science, then the following does not make sense to me:

I am thinking construction for silks, if we need silks at all. I am guessing Willy has an entertainer or two in Amsterdam, furs will increase his effective population and science output for 20 turns but not increase his shield output for the Lighthouse because he has gone stupid with irrigation instead of mines.

First you set research to zero, expecting to get Currency faster from the AI, and then you want to slow down their science output (by not giving them furs)? If I want the AI to research something for me, I sometimes even gift them spare lux resources for free to speed up their research. And here we can even get something (silks) for our furs! And also you want to give away Construction, which would be perfect trade bait for the case that they indeed come up with Currency?

If we really want to go that way, I would say we should do it the other way around: buy silks for furs to speed up their research, and keep Construction so we have something to trade for Currency. (As I said we have to hold on to our Literature monopoly at all costs.)

As to whether it might be a good idea to wait for the AI to come up with Currency, I have now taken another look at the 550BC save: Russia, Aztecia, Osmania and Byzanz don't even know Mathematics, so no way they are currently researching Currency... That leaves Carthage, Arabia and the Dutch.

• Carthage seems to be the strongest AI, researching quite fast, probably powered by their Golden Age they got in the war with Arabia. Also Currency and Literature are the only AA techs they don't know yet, so they are most probably researching Currency right now. However, once Carthage comes up with Currency, we don't have anything to trade. (Again: can't give them Literature.)
• Netherlands are still lacking Polytheism, Currency, Construction, Literature, Monarchy and Republic. So there is no guarantee they are currently doing Currency. Could as well be Polytheism or Construction... Or Monarchy or Republic...
• Arabia is still lacking Currency, Construction, Literature and Republic, so again no guarantee they are currently doing Currency. And we are still at war with them, so we would have to make peace in order to trade.

So I would say, the risk is quite high that we'll have to wait a very long time, before someone comes up with Currency and we have something to offer that "someone" for it. On the other hand, all that time the risk increases, that meanwhile someone discovers Literature or Republic (or trades Republic from Carthage e.g. for Currency ), when it would become much harder (or even impossible) for us to buy the scientific freebees at age change.

Therefore my vote goes for: research ourselves as fast as possible! We need to get into the Middle Age, while Lit and Rep are still worth something. If someone does indeed get Currency before us (e.g Carthage), we'll at least get a good discount.

Next question to settle: we all want Russia to build SoZ for us right? So make sure they get Math now.

 

[choxorn]

Furs for silks from the Dutch should be ok. We will still need 20 turns to complete our build-up, and if we have some military before that, we can always go for Arabia first. Arabia can be attacked without Lighthouse, so it's not that urgent.

It might even take more than 20 turns for the Dutch to finish the Lighthouse, for that matter. Trading Furs for Silks should be fine.

 

[robbus]

dear Lanz:
Q:Why is literature so valuable?
A:Because it speeds scientific research.

and culture.
Do you agree? (Remember , I am learning here!)

 

[Spoonwood]

dear Lanz:
Q:Why is literature so valuable?
A:Because it speeds scientific research.

and culture.
Do you agree? (Remember , I am learning here!)

I hope Lanzelot doesn't mind me butting in here, but nobody knows it so far in your game and it can get used to trade for or to cheapen the purchase of a free tech by an AI. Usually The Republic works the best for that.

 

[robbus]

OK thanks Spoonwood.

mild SPOILER Alert:

I have "preplayed" some turns in order to compare my moves with the consensus moves by the team. I sold LITERATURE to bump up research. We moved into another age with the bump and until recently was not aware of expected barbarian uprising.

Q: Does Barbarian fighting add or subtract to war weariness/happiness?

I am guessing ... NO

 

[choxorn]

Barbarians don't affect WW at all, no.

 

[robbus]

For the record...

I have read all the posts. I am aware of the Viking vs Viking disagreements. I am here to learn, not to win (but of course winning is desirable/why we play).

Anyway, your turnsets are your own. I have had only one turnset. My barracks was destroyed and my irrigation criticized justifiably. I did what I did( SLAGIATT) (Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time)

This is a complicated game. The fun is in playing.

To me you guys(and/orgirls) are discussing wonder strategy and conquerage as a given.

I am FAR less confident> Our military is below minimal to protect our cities. I get that archers are better than spearman. But... WTH?
we have a profoundly insufficient military, IMHO.

I built the Rax in Bergen to kick out vets. To me settlers are no good without protection. Lots of discussion about where settler should go and none about protection.

If you are saying that the only way to win is by anticipating AI moves, then I will go back to monarch(small map).

The genius of civ3 is resource allocation. The failure is .....

Rant over.

BTW I am loving THIS game because of the blogging that all of you have done.

 

[Lanzelot]

We have a small military at the moment, that is true. However, for what we currently need it, it is sufficient: we had no problems fending off anything the Arabians threw at us so far, and we can have a settler escort, if we send a Settler into insecure areas.

If we invest too many resources into military in the early phase of the game, we will fall behind in other, more important areas. Settlers, Workers, Libraries, Aqueducts, Granaries, all this is much more important than military, and will give us a very powerful empire in the long run. Very soon we will have half a dozen size-12 cities with the necessary improved tiles to work on, some will make 10 shields per turn, some even 15, so we can build an Archer or a Horsemen in just 2 turns! And at the same time the AI (which doesn't know how to build up a productive empire) will still have its small size 1-5 towns, and their production capacity will be nothing compared to ours, even if we take the 20% discount (Emperor bonus) into account. Then we can build up a huge army in a short time, and the AI will stand no chance whatsoever...

So the idea behind this "style of playing" is in a nutshell: minimal military (just enough to fend off any early threats) and maximum build-up of big cities, improved tiles, big production capacity and advanced technology for advanced weapons. Then after that build-up phase, change gears, put everything (shields and gold) into the military and run over the AI, before they even know what hit them...

The Berzerk with attack 6 at a very early time in the tech tree is perfect for such a strategy. If we get it fast enough, it will be up against defense 2 (Spearmen) or defense 3 (Pikemen) at most, so it will slice through the AI like a hot knife through butter...

Let me add the following to what Spoonwood already said: the special thing about Literature in this particular game is: it is still a monopoly tech, meaning: no one except us knows it so far. The AI is willing to pay high prices for monopoly techs, and this gives us a chance to buy an expensive Middle Age tech (the freebees the scientific tribes are going to get, when they enter the next age) for much less expensive Ancient Age techs (monopoly Literature + Republic + probably gold in form of lump sum and gpt). And also what is special about Literature (and Republic): they are optional techs, meaning they are not required to enter the Middle Age. So we can gift the scientific tribes all required techs to advance into the Middle Age, but can hold back Literature and Republic. Then, once they got their freebee, we still have the "optionals" to offer for said freebee.

This is a standard procedure in fast research games.

 

[robbus]

thanks Lanz...I am appreciating relative value of techs. Civassist2 is helping as well.

Like I posted earlier, I am uncomfortable with our defensive strength.

Lanz,Speed, "Tusker*, etc are far more capable than I at this point. I would like to contribute more than I have...

I truly appreciate the effort and thought all of you have made,