TJS1 -- Going on the Pill-age

[robbus]

I hope I wasn't too harsh on him?! But yes, in that case I also favor taking it from choxorn's last save. And with Gandhi finished and still lots of time before COTM131 is due, could I suggest that I get a "forward-skip" and try this turnset? I could play tonight.


Exactly.
@robbus: is it clear to you, what we have been talking about? In the current situation, Aarhus has only one food-tile, the floodplain, which will provide 4 food (after irrigation). All the other tiles are 1-food tiles (or less), so at the moment we can support 5 citizens there: the floodplain and 4 hills would provide exactly the 10 necessary food for feeding the 5 citizen:
2 (city center) + 4 (1 floodplain) + 4x1 (4 hills) = 10

Lateron, once we have captured Utrecht, we can use another floodplain to support 2 more hills, so we get a total of 8 citizens:
2 (city center) + 2x4 (2 floodplains) + 6x1 (6 hills) = 16

So Aarhus would max out at size 8, quite a pity for a town on a river that could grow to size 12 without needing an Aqueduct. And even more a pity, if you consider that Oslo or Bergen might eventually build/rush the Forbidden Palace, so Aarhus would become a fully productive city!

Edit: I'm assuming that the two plains between Aarhus and Oslo will be needed by Oslo, once it gets to size 12. Of course a 2nd ring city (especially with FP) will get preference over a 3rd ring city.)

Yes I see it .... but when I as playing my "ghost" turnset I put Aarhus in the same place because it was closer to our ring and militarily less vulnerable. In my (monarch) games I have trouble making and keeping friends so tend to more fighting with big military. My military mind prefers a closer Aarhus on a hill than your "visionary?' mind which sees growth potential balanced with military considerations. I need training. When studying calculus I was able to quickly do integrals while others struggled, now I am the one struggling!

I had trouble with the trading round that Speedbird left in that I could not get engineering because I don't see where the science civs got monarchy to fill there tech tree. Or is that not needed? I get the principle of Russian/Byzantine/ Otto science bonus and trading for it... Maybe tonight I will give it another shot.

I hate to clog up this thread with my "chieftain" intellect, so shoot me a private message if you would prefer. OTOH there are a few lurkers who are also benefitting... I will let you make the call.

 

[Nathiri]

I'm good with whatever.

 

[tjs282]

I had trouble with the trading round that Speedbird left in that I could not get engineering because I don't see where the science civs got monarchy to fill there tech tree. Or is that not needed? I get the principle of Russian/Byzantine/ Otto science bonus and trading for it... Maybe tonight I will give it another shot.

Monarchy's not needed to advance.

IIRC...

• We started with ~480g, earning ~50gpt (at SCI%+LUX%=0*), needing only Currency to advance, but also holding Rep + Lit
  • *It's always a good idea to set your expenditure temporarily to max.-TAX% for tech-brokering, so you can do GPT-deals if needed -- no matter how unhappy your towns look, they can't riot until the IBT!
  • Carthage has a monopoly on Currency, and a near-monopoly on Monarchy (with... Abu or Monty?); He also already knows Lit + Rep
  • Of the SCI-Civs, Byz and Russia need Construction and/or Currency, Ottos need almost everything post-Writing/Maths
• The (non-optimal) trade-order I used was:

1. Sold Construction to Willy for all his gold (~155g -- he had no gpt-income)
   • He still needs Currency to get to the Mid Age
2. Bought Currency from Hanni (already in the Mid Age) for ~630g + ~18gpt
   • Hanni's now holding most of our gold, but we are now (also) in the Mid Age
3. Sold Currency(?) (38g) to Cathy to get her into the Mid-Age
   • She got Eng, but even though she still missed Rep + Lit, she knew other Civs which knew them, so she also wanted gold+gpt in exchange for Eng
4. Did the same for Dora (sold Construction for pennies, Currency gifted)
   • She also got Eng, but flat refused to sell it, since she only missed 1 of Lit/Rep (can't remember which), and knew Hanni
   • NB I shouldn't have done this at this point, since Dora knowing Eng significantly devalued it, when I went back to Hanni later
5. Gifted Ozzie all the way up
   • He also got Eng, and was willing to sell it for 'just' Rep + Lit
   • Of the 2 Civs he knew -- the Dutch and Aztecs -- only the Dutch knew Rep, so its value was still very high to him
6. Sold Eng to Hanni for as much gold+gpt as I could carry (I think I got about 610g and 8gpt back)
   • He didn't offer Monarchy, so I probably couldn't afford it -- see above (and below)

• I finished with ~655g and ~41gpt, in the Mid-Age, with Eng -- the most expensive 1st-tier tech -- acquired for 'free'
  • We're in hock to Carthage by ~9gpt, but otherwise have recovered nearly all the gold we 'lent' to Hanni
• Everyone else is broke (for the rest of this turn/IBT)
• Arabs, Dutch and Aztecs are still Ancient
  • Willy needs Currency, but will get it relatively soon, now that it's known by 5 Civs (of which he's met 3(?) so far)

With hindsight, given that all 3 SCI-Civs got Eng (this is quite unusual), and Ozzie was the only one who'd trade it for a 'fair' price, it might actually have been better to just go to him straight off, and leave Cathy and Dora in the Ancient Age. Buuut (unless your SG-team-mates have already blazed the trail!) before you start gift-and-trade tech-brokering with SCI-Civs, you don't know for sure which free-techs are going to show up, and if even one SCI-Civ gets something different, you can usually use 1 free tech to get the other, before the AI-Civs have a chance to swap techs amongst themselves.

Also, I failed to pick up Monarchy, because I went to Dora before Ozzie (in the hope that I would be able to get Eng without having to give away so much). Since they didn't know each other, and Ozzie didn't know Hanni either, if I'd gone to Ozzie first -- and left Dora in the Ancient Age -- I could probably have got Monarchy from Hanni(?) as additional part-payment for Eng (as Lanz did, IIRC). I would then have had further gold-bait for the other AI-Civs later.

 

[robbus]

Holy crap! Nice detailed explanation tjs282. I will carefully go through this with my time machine.

It pains me to say this because Speedbird has been so good to me but... The consensus appears to be that the plan was significantly alterd during 'birds turnset. Speedbird has retired so I think it is reasonable for us to replay the 'bird's turns.

I am willing to give it a shot. I will post maybe 3 turns at a time. I have civ2assist BTW

I am hoping to get Elephantium back on board. Us civ3'rs are a rare breed, we cannot afford to lose anybody else!

 

[Elephantium]

I hope I wasn't too harsh on him?! But yes, in that case I also favor taking it from choxorn's last save. And with Gandhi finished and still lots of time before COTM131 is due, could I suggest that I get a "forward-skip" and try this turnset? I could play tonight.

If you were too harsh, I was WAY too harsh. That being said, I would only apologize for tone. All of the critiques of Speedbird's set were valid.

Even as much as Speedbird's set disappointed me, I generally hold to "what's done is done" in SGs...I'll abstain from the vote on which set to play from, in this case.

Exactly.
@robbus: is it clear to you, what we have been talking about? In the current situation, Aarhus has only one food-tile, the floodplain, which will provide 4 food (after irrigation). All the other tiles are 1-food tiles (or less), so at the moment we can support 5 citizens there: the floodplain and 4 hills would provide exactly the 10 necessary food for feeding the 5 citizen:
2 (city center) + 4 (1 floodplain) + 4x1 (4 hills) = 10

Lateron, once we have captured Utrecht, we can use another floodplain to support 2 more hills, so we get a total of 8 citizens:
2 (city center) + 2x4 (2 floodplains) + 6x1 (6 hills) = 16

So Aarhus would max out at size 8, quite a pity for a town on a river that could grow to size 12 without needing an Aqueduct. And even more a pity, if you consider that Oslo or Bergen might eventually build/rush the Forbidden Palace, so Aarhus would become a fully productive city!

Edit: I'm assuming that the two plains between Aarhus and Oslo will be needed by Oslo, once it gets to size 12. Of course a 2nd ring city (especially with FP) will get preference over a 3rd ring city.)

I was looking at the screenshot around Aarhus and wondering about those two plains tiles

I'm in favor of Settler-abandoning it and re-settling N or NW. Or even 2NW!

 

[choxorn]

I don't really care where we start from next either, it sounds like people want to go back to my last save, though.

 

[robbus]

dear fellow Vikings....

From time immemorial divided leadership has led to chaos. Speedbird has done their best for us. I did what I thought was best when it was my turnset.

I am 60 yrs old and got laid off a year ago. I am unlikely to get rehired anywhere,

I bought CIV3 vanilla at least 15 yrs ago for $80... I bought PTW for$30, then conquest plus Civ4 for $30 4 yrs ago.

I have easily beat civ3 at monarch level.... twice! I am clearly out of my league in this game with the current players.

BUT....

my feeling is that civ3 demands forward thinking, and it is a good exercise for me at my age to do this.

I feel intimidated by the rest of the team who are clearly better players than I.

I have thought about it and would like to play from Choxorn's turns... TIME MACHINE!!! Because I want to see/work the settler and worker pumps. Concepts I have read about but never fully achieved. This was the plan.

For the record: I "played" Speedbirds turns on my own and got clobbered by barbarian uprising. So I learned something there!!! Forget about Engineering! Trondheim looked like a campsite after my efforts! Speedbird had a lot to deal with!

Anyway, I respectfully ask Elephantium to stay and to rewrite history:

replay Speedbird' s turns.

Berserker Forever!!!! (insert crazy cheer)

 

[Lanzelot]

So if I recollect that correctly, three are in favor if restarting from the 550BC save (tjs282, Lanzelot, robbus), two abstain (nathiri, Elephantium) and choxorn hasen't stated his preference yet. In that case, even though it's a very drastic measure in an SG, let's do it.

@robbus: the current turnset is a critical one, with the imminent transition into the middle age and with our towns still being quite weak and needing a lot of good worker management to finally become productive. I begin to think, that maybe all of the current turmoil could have been avoided, if one of the experienced players had happened to be "up" for this turnset (or at least if a good preturn discussion had taken place). If you are really determined to try your hands at it, we will probably have to guide you on a very detailed level. My action plan would look like:

• Set science to 0% and let Carthage do the work for us. ( Yes, this was indeed a stroke of genius. We know that Carthage is already working on Currency, and they are in a Golden Age, so will probably get it done in reasonable time. We can collect cash during that time, buy it from them and then get our cash back by selling them a freebee. So we will get Currency around the same time as when we researched it ourselves, but we'll have some 400-500 additional gold in our pockets, which will speed up our medieval research!) Construction just finished this turn, so we have not yet invested any beakers into Currency.
• Trondheim keeps building 4-turn Settlers. The next one goes to the whales as in the game. The following ones get shipped down to the tundra. For this switch Reykjavik to a Galley. Then all town sites can be reached in 1 or 2 turns via ship-chain.
• After the Galley, Reykjavik starts its Aqueduct. Make sure that new Workers from Bergen join the workforce there to get the BGs roaded and mined. (As I already wrote some time ago: Reykjavik can become a power-house -- if we only let it... It can do 14spt before corruption at size 6, so probably 12spt netto, but it needs a lot of work done before that.
• Similarly Copenhagen needs more Workers from Bergen, to improve the second hill and put a mine on the tobacco.
• Oslo can be switched to an Archer and set up for 5fpt. The Archer will finish interturn (remember: shields from forest...), then it can take the horse tile from Bergen (Bergen doesn't need it for building Workers) and can operate as 2-turner as well.
• Birka and Stockholm can do some more Archers and Horsemen after their Barracks.
• Workers from Oslo can improve tiles for Birka, Aarhus, Stockholm and also Oslo itself for the time after Worker duty.
• And Workers from Bergen can work towards Whale-town and start improving tiles for Trondheim for the time after the push.
  
• Trades: sell the Russians, Ottomans and Byzantines Mathematics for their gold. (Make sure to include a RoP in the deal with the Russians!) That should be enough at this point.
• The lone Warrior should scout towards and then beyond Moscow.

In case, if tjs282 decides to give me a "forward skip", I would have time to play this weekend.

 

[Elephantium]

Lanz, I'd be happy for you to take a forward-skip/swap.

I believe choxorn also abstained from the replay vote.

Your outline sounds good, except that I would still prefer to follow our original plan of self-research. That WAS the consensus before all this

Knowing that Carthage is researching Currency does make stockpiling to for a trade more attractive...*spoilers!* but that doesn't change my preferred approach.

 

[robbus]

GO FOR IT LANZELOT!

I am driving 1500km across America tomorrow...I likely will not have time to contribute.

 

[Elephantium]

robbus, I'd just like to add that you're doing a great job thus far. I appreciate your humility and inquisitiveness; both serve well in the SG format.

 

[robbus]

Dear Elephantium:

Thanks for your comment. I am more a follower than a leader at this point. As a student, I look up to my teachers.

I hope you are back in 'Tusker.

 

[robbus]

BTW team:
I am actively playing this game and comparing my results with the posted saves. I am learning the rules first and then appreciating strategy. As a monarch player my strategy was to out-research my competitors, while maintaining a heavy defensive posture. This meant spear/pike/infantry everywhere. This doesn't work when your horsemen are skewered by the emperor level pikes, hence this game.

I have been getting (literally) killed at emperor level, so this is a step up for me.
My other favorite game is :

SCARFACE: The World Is Yours

only plays on xp though. BUT You get bonus points for cursing people

 

[choxorn]

Yeah, my vote was also an abstention.

 

[Lanzelot]

So how does everyone feel about using the zero science strategy in this turn set, as introduced by Speedbird?
Despite all the arguments I had against it, I like it a lot... Tusker votes against it.

 

[robbus]

2 turn save

 

[choxorn]

So how does everyone feel about using the zero science strategy in this turn set, as introduced by Speedbird?
Despite all the arguments I had against it, I like it a lot... Tusker votes against it.

I'm actually in favor of it- I don't really like the strategy that much, to be honest, but it's not without merit, and doing at least one of the things Speedbird did during his set, even if I don't like it it, makes me feel better about time-travelling like this.

 

[Spoonwood]

2 turn save

Did you switch a tile in Trondheim Robbus? If so, don't.

Here, I'll go back to the 550 BC save. This is Trondheim:

Now, I do NOT change any tiles. Trondheim says 7 shields, but it will get two extra from the forest upon growth. So, it will pick up 9 shields and complete the settler on the interturn. Thus, I leave it alone and here's the next turn WITHOUT tile rearrangement and zooming the city. Notice the settler in the city and it at size 5:

Now, rearranging tiles in the zoom feature, which helps with micro-management:

Also, if you're doing 0 research, I don't see a need for a scientist. Have him/her work a tile or become a tax collector instead.

 

[Spoonwood]

Bergen is more optimally arranged like this:

We still get the worker in 1 turn and it will produce more commerce now.

The aqueduct in Cophenhagen goes too slowly. So, more like this with more of the luxury slider:

 

[Spoonwood]

Also, you moved three workers from one hill to another, without completing a road. The downside is that now you have to have spend another turn moving to that mined hill again. Then again, maybe everyone else thinks this worth it for the faster aqueduct in Copenhagen. This, to me, is more to difficult to figure out than the above.

Additionally, you move three workers onto the same forest near Oslo Robbus. That's 3 worker moves for 1 tile. I would think there existed something better for those workers to do.

You also started mining a plain near a city with some forests and some hills. I think that irrigation would work out better for that tile, though maybe there's more to it.

General tip to improve play:

I got this idea from the old Master of Orion manual, and it has helped to improve my play. On any particular turn you think important, or on every single turn, start in your capital city and cycle through your cities to see if you can find a better tile arrangement (maybe CivAssist II can get used to a similar effect?). Better still, do that BEFORE moving your workers and plan your worker moves based on what you can figure out from cycling through your cities.

If cycling through your cities on every single turn sounds like too much time for your liking, just do so on turns you think important. Or do so for the first 50 turns in a game.