TM 01 - The alphabet games - America

[SpriteSODA]

Im Back In Bussiness(TM)

 

[namliaM]

I tend to agree with SkunkDoctor and favor war with Saladin (either short or medium-term) for the following reasons:

1) Vicky is already +6 pleased with us from sharing religion and will be a good tech/resource trade/war ally
2) Sal is already annoyed with us and likely to attack while our limited forces are tied up in the south (if we attack Vicky). Monty will come soon too, giving us 3 unsafe fronts. Vicky can take some heat off from him if she is our ally
3) London is the proverbial "Bridge to Far" I believe. If this is the case, all we stand to gain from war with Vicky is one excellent cottage city site, which will kind of be working for us anyway if we trade a lot of techs with her; also we are about to settle a decent alternative directly south of Washington
4) We will eventually need to smack down the tech-whore Mansa around the renaissance, so westward expansion would help with this
5) We can always turn on Vicky later if the circumstances warrant, and when we can win with tech-advanced troops

Very well I am confinced...

I'm not sure we can get two cities from Sal in the short-term and survive a counter-attack. Taking Najran within the next 20 turns is probably doable, even while building the Great Lib. We will have to see how strong we are (and what his counter-attack looks like) for the second and following cities. About Chitchen Itza, I think it is a waste of hammers and we are short hammers. We can achieve another 2 Great Prophet points by running a priest in Washington (I think it has a temple already?) It is 250 hammers (with stone); whether produced or chopped, that is 7 axes or 6 swords or 5 Horse Archers, which we will need for war with Saladin and shortly to defend against Monty. It would be nice (as would Hanging Gardens), but I don't think the circumstances favor it.

Hmz, wonders do tend to be a drain... But Chitchen also give +25% defence in cities which is nice.
HG would indeed be verry nice not only for the +1 pop, but also for the great engineer points.

We need a level 4 Unit for Heroic Epic. Probably best chance is down by the barbs in the SW, but may be able to do it taking Najran from Saladin. Getting this lv. 4 unit should be a top priority, before Monty comes calling.

The epic is never an importent goal for me, having upped units is... which is kindoff synonym I guess.

We need at least 2 more workers immediately, so that also makes it harder to go to war and survive counter-attack in the next 10 turns or so.

Terribly low on worker yes... I believe I noted that too.

As to overall strategy, we only have 5 cities at the moment (counting one about to be settled), probably 6-7 max. for the medium-term future. We will need to be on the ball to preserve our tech lead without opening ourselves to attack from Sal and Monty (Monty will attack within the next 40 turns, guaranteed). To this end, I propose the following

1) City specialization:
a) Commerce/Science: lib./market/courthouse/pop growth/happiness: Build Cottages: Washington and city about to be founded south of there
b) Production: Barracks, granary (for whip), UNITS!!!, courthouse when possible: Build Irrigation/Mines: Boston and Philly, Heroic Epic in one of those two
c) GP Farm: National Epic, lots of farms, library/Great Lib., pop growth/happiness: Build Irrigation: New York

WDC? With them hills? and the horse grassland? Uhm... Wouldnt that be better as a production thing?

As hammer poor as we are right now, I think it is crucial we stick to only the builds needed for these specializations (with the exception of some unit builds in Washington in prep for war). A library in a city with 5-6 commerce (or less) does not help us. Barracks/units in a 6 hammer city does not help us.

That is allways a good thing early on... But sometimes verry hard (for me)

We are up Code of Laws, Metal Casting and Alphabet on everyone. We can get either HBR or Construction from Mansa, but only by giving him Code of Laws and Monarchy. If we are not going to build Chitchen Itza, this is not really a problem and Cats will help us a lot against Sal. Nobody else has Alphabet yet. I would recommend not trading Alpha and Metal Casting as long as possible. We should be able to trade someone for currency withing the next 10 turns or so. Calendar is available now, but we don't have much use for it, except for the spices. I would rather build an obelisk in Philly and pop the borders (30 hammer vs. 90 for library in 1 commerce city), so we should at least wait until after that border pop to get calendar.

hmz, guess so... thats that specializing thing again... Still in C3C mode I guess....

For tech path, I favor Civil Service next:
1) Get Washington booming with Bureaucracy (increasing tech lead, maybe allowing for Hanging Gardens after war with Sal)
2) Chain irrigation to Philly to allow more hammer production
3) One tech away from maces at that point

Comments?

Yessssss Bureaucrcy would really help ....

 

[rddc05]

Thanks for your comments Namliam.

About Heroic Epic, it would really help with getting our military up and running to take out Sal and discourage Monty. We have some flexibility I guess, but really the sooner the better (1-turn swords would be oh-so nice).

About DC, it is already a nice production city with Mines, Barracks, Forge, etc. (hence using it to build units also), but for the next 100 turns or so it will be better developed as science/commerce IMHO, since it has the +8 commerce from the Palace and it will soon have the shrine and bureaucracy commerce bonus (not to mention that we only have one other potential commerce city at the moment). So, it is a very nice hybrid city, if you will.

New York could be a decent commerce city as well, but I think it will serve us better pumping out GP. Maybe New York as commerce city and WDC as production/GP Farm augmented with wonders, especially Great Library? That is a possibility. I would like to hear what others have to say.

Re: Chitchen Itza, I am hoping that we will put ourselves in a position that the extra 25% city defense will not be that great of a benefit (ie. units on borders, good cultural defenses, on the attack rather than defense in the case of war). Again, look at the hammer trade-off: if we are attacked, would you rather have 25% extra city defense or 7 axes to counter-attack? But you are right, it could well be useful. The question is, how long does it delay the Saladin war (until he gets longbows maybe)?

 

[SkunkDoctor]

Again, look at the hammer trade-off: if we are attacked, would you rather have 25% extra city defense or 7 axes to counter-attack? But you are right, it could well be useful. The question is, how long does it delay the Saladin war (until he gets longbows maybe)?

I never build it. It is dead to me

WELCOME BACK SPRITE.

 

[rddc05]

Well, what a difference 10 turns makes.

Strategy totally changed from last post:

1) I decided to go ahead with the Chichen Itza to try and get a second GP for a second shrine. This will be tricky if we build the Great Lib. in Washington (which I think we should). Nobody else even has Alphabet yet, so we may have time to build a Nat'l Epic in Washington before building a library and then the Great Library. This would give us some turns at +8 Great Prophet points to build up some Great Prophet production before the +8 (+16 with Nat'l Epic) Great Scientist points start kicking in. Either way, we will probably end up at about 50/50 for Great Prophet/Great Scientist unless we build a temple in Washington and run a priest there. BUT, we need to keep an eye out that we don't wait to long on the Great Library, it would really hurt us to lose it. On the other hand, Monty will come soon, so we might do well to crank a couple of axes or Horse Archers out of there before we do anything else.

2) Saladin converted to Confucianism on the first turn. Vicky converted to Judaism 4 turns in and nobody else is that religion, so that tells me she founded it and will stick with it. We went from +8 pleased to -1 Cautious with her in one turn. Therefore, I switched to Confucianism to make buddies with Sal and he traded us his wines. The plan now is to eradicate Vicky, starting with Canterbury. She is the most tech-backward AI, so we should be able to pull this off at our leisure. It gives us a chance to build up our economy/infrastructure since we can take our time. Also, Caesar founded Christianity, so there will soon be no Hindu AI. So, I think the switch to Confucian was the right thing to do (Sal will spread it vigorously and has already sent a missionary to a Roman city). Built the Confucian shrine in NY.

3) I think Washington will be our GP farm and use New York as a commerce/science city. Washington has more hammers to build the needed buildings (It will rely on wonders for GP, with a few specialists) and can contribute as a production city when needed. We should irrigate the rest of the grassland in Washington. New York has the early shrine, so financial buildings will be better here, and cottage spam.

4) Traded mansa for Construction and HBR, JC for currency. Philly will pop borders in 2 turns, so we can trade Sal for Calendar at that point. We are way out on the tech lead, as nobody else has Alphabet yet. As soon as the AI get Alpha we should trade and sell techs agressively since Mansa will spread all techs around that he has (try to avoid trades with Mansa). We are 11 turns from Civil Service, perhaps consider Music next for the Free Great Artist. When we get Civil Service we should revolt immediately and I would recommend switching to Org. Religion at that point to help build our buildings and spread our religions. Hopefully Confucianism will spread to Washington soon for the hammer bonus under Org. Religion.

5) Sent a settler to settle south of Atlanta (another awesome cottage city site) and an 8/10 xp axe to philly to hopefully get 10 xp for Heroic Epic. These are shown in the second screenie.

6) It is touch and go on our defensive forces. Boston will finish a barracks, we should keep irrigating and mining there. In Philly, after pigs are farmed we can get 3-4 mines going and start cranking the units. We may want to build a couple of units before the barracks in preparation for Monty. Washington can build units, but again, we may be pushing it on the Great Lib. if National Epic goes in there first. We could probably use a couple more workers as well. Feel free to chop away for those workers, units and buildings in the new commerce cities.

It looks good for us, enjoy the next turns, BUT PREPARE FOR MONTY TO ATTACK!

 

[SkunkDoctor]

So who is up? Want to jump back in Sprite?

 

[namliaM]

Nice set rddc...

How about shooting for the great lib @ NY? NY has to grow a lot anyway... and has some nice hammers + Keeps the Great prophet pool clean... Plus it clears WDC for some unit building....

The new city I would prefer to wait a bit on, I would want it 1 south for having no overlap with Atlanta...

I too would like to get the 'original' cottage city first while at war? The proposed new city is a bit adventurous for my liking... In particular in defending against any retaliation...

If we are planning a war against vicy.... Lets start hacking out troups, cause we want that to happen sooner rather than later...
Mostly swords, mixed with a few axes, spears and horses. If we can manage cats that would be nice but not needed...

Roster
- Burglar
- Mailman
- namliaM
- rddc05 => Changed the entire landscape...
- SkunkDoctor => Up
- SpriteSoda => On deck

 

[rddc05]

How about shooting for the great lib @ NY? NY has to grow a lot anyway... and has some nice hammers + Keeps the Great prophet pool clean... Plus it clears WDC for some unit building....

This would work, except New York doesn't have the hammers to get it done in time (need a library in the city to build it). Plus we will want the Great Prophet points diluted after the second shrine is built. I think it is more important to have the 8 Great Scientist points in Washington than it is to have the second shrine. If we need some units from Washington right now, maybe build a couple and get back to wonder production with National Epic, library and Great Library, not necessarily in that order. Washington will have +50% production from Bureaucracy by then too.

The new city I would prefer to wait a bit on, I would want it 1 south for having no overlap with Atlanta...

The tile indicated by the arrow in the screenie is indeed one south and has no overlap. My thinking on the next city was that if we wait, Vicky's borders will grow and block us from that tile; but if we will be taking her cities within the next 40 turns or so anyway, I suppose it won't matter. So, we can wait or not on that city, whatever the next player decides.

 

[namliaM]

This would work, except New York doesn't have the hammers to get it done in time (need a library in the city to build it). Plus we will want the Great Prophet points diluted after the second shrine is built. I think it is more important to have the 8 Great Scientist points in Washington than it is to have the second shrine. If we need some units from Washington right now, maybe build a couple and get back to wonder production with National Epic, library and Great Library, not necessarily in that order. Washington will have +50% production from Bureaucracy by then too.

We can still use a prophet or 2 to found (eg) Islam.... and build its temple...

 

[SkunkDoctor]

requesting a skip this weekend, got engaged.
Gotta go, I think the wife is calling . Just kidding, but I don't have civ access on this computer.

 

[rddc05]

Hey, congrats man! All the best!

 

[namliaM]

requesting a skip this weekend, got engaged.

Congrats man... Just like that huh?

Roster
- Burglar => On deck
- Mailman
- namliaM
- rddc05 => Changed the entire landscape...
- SkunkDoctor => Got Engaged, in commes a wife, out goes civ
- SpriteSoda => Up

 

[SpriteSODA]

Got it, will post tommorow though..

 

[Burglar]

I agree with rddc. New York is too low on hammers. It would last too long.
I don't know Washington to be a GP farm. I think it's kind of hybrid city.
If we want to build the wonder/s than in the moment they have to be built in Washington.

Further on rddc is right to farm/mine the tiles in Washington. Cottages would also be quite nice in order to gain something from the 50% commerce bonus from Bureaucracy, but farming in order to mine all hills is the way to go.

GL Sprite.

 

[rddc05]

One other reason not to build the GL in New York is that we need to get a market going there quickly as well, to increase the shrine income. I should have set it to build a market instead of a library, my mistake. We might even consider running a Merchant specialist there once the market is built in order to keep the gold in a multiple of 4 (maxing the 25% from market and soon grocer).

 

[SpriteSODA]

Well, finished my quite uneventful turns.
0: Press Enter.
1: Our religion spreads to Barsa =]
Monty settled veryyy close to us...


2: Chikcen Itza is ours , Starts worker at DC. Finished barracks at Boston, starts a catapult. Iron connected. Religion spreads to the malesian city of Omlec- Very Far Away.
3: Boston catapult done, starts axeman.
4: Mansa wants me to cancel deals with rome, and I decline .
5: Worker finished at DC, started axe.
6:
7: DC finished Axe, starts Lib. Boston axe->axe.
8: Saladin adopts Theocracy... I think its good cus no other religion will spread to him and convert him.
9: Viccy wants to settle near us...

She will be delt with.
10: Done CS, start Music and goes anarchy for Burrecracy.

Those were my turns.
The Save:

 

[rddc05]

Nice job Sprite. Good call on Music. My thinking is that if we next research Drama and trade Caesar or Sal for Theology, we should be able to burn the Artist for Divine Right to found Islam. This will hopefully prevent Sal from discovering it and converting away from us, give us a very high trade-value tech and open up Nationalism for research. Divine Right also lets us build Spiral Minaret (would be perfect in New York, double speed with Stone).

If Sal converted to Theocracy, this means he already has Theology and Monarchy and may be already burning a beaker path to Divine Right to found Islam. This would be very bad for us. The Great Artist may be the only way to avoid this outcome.

I guess we will need to decide what to do about the Great Library pretty soon. Anyone else want to share their thoughts?

Did we also switch to Org. Religion with Civil Service? That will be crucial for getting confucianism into Wahsington and building these wonders and buildings. I can't load the save until probably sometime this weekend, so somebody let me know if you can check it.

 

[SpriteSODA]

No i forgot to do the switch to OR=\.
i'm building Lib at DC in hope to get the GL there, cus it will take only 16 turns and we still got trees there to chop. NY will simply take too much time and Boston should be used only for military cus we need plenty and its a good Prod. city. we should build there Heroic Epic and Ironworks.

 

[namliaM]

I agree with rddc. New York is too low on hammers. It would last too long.
I don't know Washington to be a GP farm. I think it's kind of hybrid city.
If we want to build the wonder/s than in the moment they have to be built in Washington.

Further on rddc is right to farm/mine the tiles in Washington. Cottages would also be quite nice in order to gain something from the 50% commerce bonus from Bureaucracy, but farming in order to mine all hills is the way to go.

GL Sprite.

Agree with farms on DC too, but to the degree so we can work them hills.

NY = low-ish shields now, cause it is low pop. Put a farm, watch it grow and work them hills with that bronze and stone.... Ouch...
But the low hammers is right why I would designate it.
1) We have a monopoly for a while I think.
2) NY needs to grow, It is not going to do much in military either atm.
3) .... Lost my train of thought... Oh yeah keep the GPP pools clean, we can use a couple more Prophets as well as some scientists...

But that is my humble...

 

[namliaM]

2: Chikcen Itza is ours , Starts worker at DC. Finished barracks at Boston, starts a catapult. Iron connected. Religion spreads to the malesian city of Omlec- Very Far Away.

Nice one on spreading the faith...

3: Boston catapult done, starts axeman.

More cats to come I hope

4: Mansa wants me to cancel deals with rome, and I decline .

Who does he think he is??? Mansa

5: Worker finished at DC, started axe.
6:
7: DC finished Axe, starts Lib. Boston axe->axe.

Nice 2 turn axe

8: Saladin adopts Theocracy... I think its good cus no other religion will spread to him and convert him.
9: Viccy wants to settle near us...

She will be delt with.

I told you she was bad from the get go...

Divine Right also lets us build Spiral Minaret (would be perfect in New York, double speed with Stone).

If we do get the Minaret and Islam... the we will want to spam them Mosks.....

Heroic Epic and Ironworks.

Is that a smart combo?

Uneventfull, but nice set Sprite...

Roster
- Burglar => Up
- Mailman => kceD nO
- namliaM
- rddc05
- SkunkDoctor => Got Engaged, in commes a wife, out goes civ
- SpriteSoda => Upped the military a bit