TNT Term 4

[General_W]

Fe and I discussed (via AIM) having me take the lead with TNT on a trade for Literature.

Ultimately, if this trade goes through – we want TNT to claim that they got the tech from a hut – and Fe to be able to go to KISS and say "I never traded Lit to TNT."

The rest of the reasons for this trade are outlined in the letter.
I opted for (almost) total honesty - with a heavy dose of smearing KISS and smiling warmly at TNT.

Looking forward to feedback on my first diplomatic effort!
(of course this won't be sent till it's been fully reviewed)

Dear Greekguy
(And the glorious team TNT),

Foreign Minister Fe3333au has asked me to handle this next round of negotiations with you.

Fe3333au hasn't insulted you by sending some lowly peon to talk with you, as I am currently the Defense Minister of MIA and a 2 time former President. I am very much looking forward to working with you.

Now, to the matter at hand…
We here at MIA are concerned that the Dnut barbarians or the KISS idiots may be angling for building the Great Library, and frankly, we'd rather see them both fail. We've ruled out trying to build it ourselves, and if anyone were to get it – we'd like it to be you. (of course, a world-wide ban on the Great Library would be awesome for us – but we don't think this is very likely).
So what I'm driving at? We'd like to offer to trade you the Literature tech on terms more favorable than we'd normally consider.

We'd be willing to accept a modest amount of gold, and/or a future promise of some technology perhaps?

I'm being vague because it's still early in this negotiation, and we're just hunting for a deal that will be good for both of our teams. I wouldn't presume to define what "good" is for TNT.

Just because we give you literature, we don't expect you to immediately race for the Great Library. Whether or not you go for it is up to you (obviously!).

I'll be completely honest – the reason we're willing to let literature go cheap is for 2 reasons only…
1) We're hoping that if all teams have literature, we can convince everyone that building the GL is a bad idea. If we can work out a deal – our plan is to go to every team, and try to get them to sign an agreement where everyone will attack and raze any city that builds the Great Library. Since our analysts view Dnuts as the most likely to make a Great Library attempt – this is a great opportunity for you to get a 3 on 1 war going with Dnuts. (assuming they are pig-headed enough to build the GL even after the treaty is signed) However – we understand this will very likely prove unrealistic.

2) We like you, and as we've said before, we view you as our most natural ally. We're concerned that KISS may soon(ish) attack you and we want you to win. We figure the more tech we can trade with you, the stronger you are.


Looking forward to talking with you more!
For MIA and the Greek Empire,

General_W, Defense Minister.

 

[Chamnix]

I think I'm missing the point on this trade. We seem to be sticking our necks out with respect to our relationship with KISS, and I am not sure what we gain.

If I understand correctly, our goal is to prevent Donuts from getting the Great Library. Really, if TNT wants the Great Library, they can research Literature easily in about 10 turns and can prebuild for it anytime. Our giving them Literature will not help them build it any sooner. Maybe we are hoping Literature will make them start it whereas they won't prebuild for it on their own? That doesn't really seem like a very strong argument to me.

Another reason is that we want to help TNT in general, but Literature doesn't really seem to do that - they won't be building libraries anytime soon (or at least they shouldn't be!!), and it is not required for advancement.

I think the only way this deal could be good for us is if TNT really wants the Great Library but don't think they can spare the research to get Literature on their own (sorry if that's what everyone else was thinking the entire time - it took me a while to get here!). In that case, I think we only want the deal if they are going to build it (or at least try to).

Maybe the way to approach it is to tell TNT that we have reason to believe that their archenemies are building the Great Library, and if TNT is interested in completing it first, we can arrange for them to have Literature (relatively) cheaply. If TNT is not interested in building the Great Library, then I think trading them Literature is a bad idea.

Of course, they could lie and say they are interested, but at least we could try to get them to promise us something. Will they blow their rep with us over something like this?

And by the way, for someone as determinedly honest as fe3333au, he sure can be devious....

 

[peter grimes]

Okay.... This sure is a step in a mysterious direction.

Let me first make a few stylistic suggestions before I weigh in on mow I feel about the proposal. Rereading and editing will give me some time to think.

Foreign Minister Fe3333au has asked me to handle this next round of negotiations with you.

Fe3333au hasn't insulted you by sending some lowly peon to talk with you, as I am currently the Defense Minister of MIA and a 2 time former President. I am very much looking forward to working with you.

Now, to the matter at hand?

Maybe approach this from a different tone of voice: after all, if FE needs to keep his hands clean, he can't be shaking the hands of his cleaning staff :

Allow me to introduce myself: I am General_W, Defense Minister and Former 2-term President. I am honored to be representing Team MIA in our relations with the Valiant TNT. I'll be handling things on this side for a while, so let's get to work...

This is more direct, and it leaves out the association with Fe. One could almost legitimately claim that General_W usurped the office .

2) We like you, and as we've said before, we view you as our most natural ally. We're concerned that KISS may soon(ish) attack you and we want you to win. We figure the more tech we can trade with you, the stronger you are.

2) We like you, and as we've said before, we see you as a natural ally. We're concerned that KISS has expansionistic goals, which may lead them to attack you. We don't want to see you lose.

The advantage to not using the term 'win' is that we don't really want to see them 'win'. But, we honestly don't want them to lose, either. Also, I wouldn't give them so much info saying that we think KISS may attack soonish. What are we basing that allegation on?... But we can legitimately claim their expanionistic goals without giving anything away.

1) is troublesome [please, I'm not just being negative here - I'm trying to work out my thoughts at the same time ] If we really just want to get a 'Great Library Doomesday Device' set up, why do we need TNT to have Lit? Think about it: Assume that TNT doesn't have Lit. They could still sign on to the treaty - in fact, they'd have even more reason to!

So why are we trading LIT to TNT? The only reason I can think of is to get something from them. What can they give us that's important to us?

1. Resistance of the inevitable KISS settler factory industrial waste: Yeah, we don't really have to pay them to do that. I dont' think we could pay them enough not to attack KISS.
2. Gold: If we really need them to be strong against KISS and DNUTs, we should not be siphoning off their gold.
3. Technology: There is nothing TNT will be able to give us (construction is a long shot) that is valuable. Monarchy?... unlikely Something in the Middle Ages?... Why do it now instead of later? I just don't see tech as something they can give us.
4. Intelligence: They can give us complete open-access to their city screens, on a predetermined schedule that is reasonable: a different city each turn, and they must be current as of the opening of the save (or something like that) But, what will we do with this info? Sell it to KISS or DNUT, of course! However, I think it is unrealistic to think that they would give up that much sovereignty just for an optional tech like LIT. Sure, it unlocks the GL, but the GL is only worth it if you can build it.

I guess I've talked myself into thinking that, if anything, we should not trade with TNT at all. They have absolutely nothing to bring to the table, except their pitiful existence. And even that has no intrinsic value. Their existence only has worth in that they are taking up space that KISS would otherwise ooze into. They played poorly, and I will only miss them if their absence results in MIA losing to KISS.

I'm against letting TNT have LITERATURE as outlined in the proposed letter

 

[Kentharu]

Dear MIA,

It is understandable that you traded Currency with KISS, as we did not state so before making the deal with you. We will make sure all details and conditions are included in a trade deal before a trade is official. Also, here is the signed document of that said deal, with our mark included:

Now, looking towards the future, we would like to get down to details on our proposed technology exchange program. This program would consist of both our nations researching separate branches on the tech tree. My people would be willing to research how to Construct large buildings, if the Greeks would discover the secrets of all technologies in the Monarchy branch. We will trade Construction (and hopefully other techs for future trades) to your people, in exchange for the Monarchy tech branch. Please consider this deal and answer us soon with a decision.

Lastly, I will tell you of the latest from the Donut-TNT war. On the battlefront, 2 of our brave immortals fell, after being savagely attacked by 2 heathen Mounted Warriors. The mounted savages left the battle with minimal damage. Also, a stack of several MW's is now parading itself through the Sacred Jungle, and have even sacked the village of one of our barbarian allies. However, we have plans to deal a powerful blow to the Iroqi very soon...

Bye for now.

greekguy, TNT Greek Ambassador

p.s. on your document, you spelled 'agreemant' wrong. the correct spelling is 'agreement'. only pointed it out because it is an official document.

seems our friends "over there" are very nice

 

[peter grimes]

If they want to go after spelling errata, we could point out that their spelling "Vizeer" is incorrect [Vizier], and we're only pointing it out because TNT obviously values correct spelling on official documents; else why point out agreemant?

Just being catty.

Assuming KISS starts to think straight, we will not be trading with any of the BattleIslanders. Therefore, we must figure out a way to forestall TNT without angering them. If KISS continues to be obstinate, we will have to nurture TNT to a great degree, so we can't afford any ill-will at this point.

We could say that we are already into the research for Construction, therefore we will not be able to pursue the Monarchic techs; or we could simply stall for a couple turns and explain that we are about to pop a hut therefore we can't really make any plans right now.

I certainly think a timely response is in order: Let's not be the ones to drop the ball

 

[General_W]

@Peter Grimes: I like your wording changes… but it's pretty much a moot point, because your arguments against trading Literature are persuasive – and I have to say I agree with you!

I think I was so excited about my first round of diplomacy, that I didn't really take a hard look at the underlying deal.
In all fairness – this was something Fe and I just talked about briefly over AIM.

Unless Fe wants to comment with reasons why we SHOULD do this trade – I think a trade for literature is Dead-on-Arrival.



As for how to respond to their last letter – I think "prompt stalling" is good plan. I'm really nervous about KISS, and if we're wise, we'll keep the possibility of TNT for a fall-back alliance.

At the same time – we DO need to get Polytheism to advance to the next era – maybe we should research this ourselves instead of trading something with the Dnuts? Afterall, we'd really rather help TNT than the Nutters. (We were talking about getting construction from Dnuts right?)

Thoughts?

 

[Chamnix]

It is good to have options...

I agree with the stalling approach. I wouldn't say we are researching Construction because we might want to trade for it later (although if we say we are researching it that might get us a discounted price ).

I'm not entirely sure what they are asking for. "The Monarchy tech branch" at this point is Polytheism and Monarchy. I doubt they would trade Construction for just Polytheism (everything up to Monarchy), but can they really expect us to give them Polytheism and Monarchy for just Construction? That's just insane. Maybe the first step in the stalling process is just to ask for clarification without giving any opinion.

This could be a very good thing for us. If KISS screws us, I think we can trade Map Making to the Donuts for Polytheism, then Polytheism and Literature to TNT for Construction and be in the Middle Ages by ourselves. Maybe we can consider Feudalism as our government type - it is not as good long-term financially as Republic, but it has great unit support, and if KISS screws us, it may be better to fight KISS with.

So, my opinion is stall and wait for KISS.

 

[peter grimes]

I have absolutely zero familiarity with Feudalism, but the outlines of the contingency sounds pretty good! If KISS screws us (which I sincerely hope doesn't happen) it would be sweet turnaround to wind up trouncing them in the middle ages

But seriously, I really think they'll come to their senses when Whomp gets back from London - Monday night, I believe. I truly believe that the absence communication and the absence of direction are what breed the nastiest rumors and lead directly to misgivings.

 

[fe3333au]

Points to address in responce letter

1. Hi Guys got the Agreement Document
2. PS. The spelling was a test, you passed ... I guess Vizier is also a test ... do we pass LOL
3. As you can see we didn't trade with KISS, our point is that we are free to trade Currency if we so choose ... at this point in time we choose not to.
4. Please clarify simply what you are exactly proposing.
5. Sorry to hear about your recent losses, may the gods of war and fortune look down with favour in the next 'meeting'

 

[fe3333au]

Draft of return letter to TNT

Greetings Ambassador greekguy

Thankyou for signing and sending back the latest Agreement between our two peoples. The misspelling of Agreement was deliberate and we congratulate your eye for detail ... welldone I guess you also sought to test us and we therefore proudly point out that Vizier is lettered wrongly ... do we pass your test

As to the issue of Currency excusivity, you are gravely mistaken to asume that we traded it onto KISS, just look on your diplomacy screen. Our point remains that we retain the freedom to trade this knowledge if and when we so choose and as mentioned, at this point in time we choose not to.

Please clarify simply and succinctly what exactly you are proposing to trade. You are offering Construction (20=600 beakers) in return for all technologies in the Monarchy branch. Does that mean we suppy Polytheism (12=360) and Monarchy (24=720) ... I don't understand

Also team MIA are saddened and sorry to hear about your recent losses, may the gods of war and fortune look down with favour in the next 'meeting' with the Doughnut foe.

Also we would love to engage in direct banter with you honourable Greekguy, will you not AIM chat with us?

We await clarification

warmest regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister

 

[Chamnix]

.

 

[fe3333au]

Here is want I sent ... tweeked slightly

Greetings Ambassador greekguy

Thankyou for signing and sending back the latest Agreement between our two peoples. The misspelling of Agreement was deliberate and we congratulate your eye for detail ... welldone I guess you also sought to test us and we therefore proudly point out that Vizier is lettered wrongly ... do we pass your test

As to the issue of Currency exclusivity, you are gravely mistaken to assume that we traded it onto KISS, just look on your diplomacy screen. Our point remains that we retain the freedom to trade this knowledge if and when we so choose and as mentioned, at this point in time we choose not to exercise that option.

Please clarify simply and succinctly what exactly you are proposing to trade. You are offering Construction (20=600 beakers) in return for all technologies in the Monarchy branch. Does that mean we supply Polytheism (12=360) and Monarchy (24=720) ... I don't understand

Also to a sombre note, team MIA are saddened and sorry to read about your recent losses, may the gods of war and fortune look down with favour in your next 'meeting' with the Doughnut foe.

Also we would love to engage in direct banter with you honourable Greekguy, will you not AIM chat with us?

We await clarification

warmest regards

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister

 

[Kentharu]

Dear MIA,

We are glad to hear you did not trade Currency to the Donuts or the Galls. There was a mixup in our intelligence of some sorts... We would greatly appreciate if you did not trade these secrets to either of them. Especially the Donuts, as they are currently engaged in open conflict with us. Now, about the technology exchange program. We don't expect you to trade Monarchy and Polytheism for Construction. We were merely offering to reseach Construction as our part of the exchange, and you would research those techs. We would of course research some other technology to trade for those fine technologies. So, we would be willing to offer Construction as the first part of the program. What would you be willing to trade to use in exchange for the secrets of Constructions? Please decide soon.

Now, onto our report of the Iroqi War. Our surprise attack on 4 Iroqi Mounted Warriors led to the deaths of 3 of them. Our Immortals and Horsemen ripped the heathen Iroqi to shreds. This battle could very well turn the tide in favor of our brave soldiers for a good deal of time. May our warriors weapons be covered in Iroqi blood!

I would also be glad to chat with you. I would be able to chat via AIM on December 22nd at 5:30 PM EST. Please tell me if this time would be possible to accomodate.

Goodbye for now!

greekguy, TNT Greek Ambassador

xcl xcl xlc ELMFADFMLKMSALFM i love cheese!

 

[peter grimes]

Hmmmm... A stack of 4 Mounted Warriors?... Only 1 of which survived? How did their retreat fail?

I can only assume we are talking with liars, at least for the moment. Let's wait and see what Robi has to say.

 

[fe3333au]

Was just going to post ... but then an old friend returns ... speaking in tongues ... perhaps the cheese was veined with the wrong spores.

Hi Ken ... and don't you be a stranger ya hear

Sorry I think I missed the chat, this is too busy a time ... too many social distractions

Regarding the reports from the front, I'm excited just to hear that conflict is still happening and is extracting casualties on both sides ... I eagerly F-3 as soon as I open a turn save, to see if the military strengths have changed.

 

[azzaman333]

Hmmmm... A stack of 4 Mounted Warriors?... Only 1 of which survived? How did their retreat fail?

I can only assume we are talking with liars, at least for the moment. Let's wait and see what Robi has to say.

It said that TNT was using immortals and horsemen, and you cant withdraw from a unit with a speed of 2+.

 

[peter grimes]

Good point. Didn't occur to me.

I'd still wait for corroboration by Dnut believe believers these tricksters, though.

 

[classical_hero]

Good point. Didn't occur to me.

I'd still wait for corroboration by Dnut believe believers these tricksters, though.

I have had goes where many fast units die when they should have retreated. That is they unfortunate nature of the false god, that is the RNG.

 

[Chamnix]

I guess at some point we need to respond to TNT about Construction. I think stalling is still the order of the day - maybe ask them when they anticipate completing Construction, and say we will see where we stand then?

Also, do we want to give them information regarding the Donuts units we saw on the coast?

 

[classical_hero]

I guess at some point we need to respond to TNT about Construction. I think stalling is still the order of the day - maybe ask them when they anticipate completing Construction, and say we will see where we stand then?

Also, do we want to give them information regarding the Donuts units we saw on the coast?

This is an excellent opportunity for us to make some money. We get TNT ot reearch Contruction for us while stop the research rate and we give them some techs that they do not have. I know they want Monarchy, but we have absolutely no need for that tech, so we can give them other techs that they need desperately, while we can say to Kiss that we are researching it ourselves. We must be careful though because we need to see what conditions TNT put on the sale of Contruction.