To most white Southerners: Justify using the Confederate flag!

[Formaldehyde]

I have no right to stop them. I thought I made that clear, no?

Once again, if people want to be offensive to a large segment of the population they can do so. It's their right.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
I have no right to stop them. I thought I made that clear, no?

Once again, if people want to be offensive to a large segment of the population they can do so. It's their right.

Judging by many of your posts, you think people who fly this flag are evil. The next step is to try to keep them from 'infecting' the rest of us with their 'evil'. If you haven't taken that step, then I applaud you for it, because it is one that a good number of people who believe as you do have taken.

Freedom of speech only applies in the US if it doesn't offend anyone in anyway in any degree. Thus we have political correctness, and the confederate flag is certainly not politically correct.

 

[Mescalhead]

Originally posted by Formaldehyde
I don't remember the name of the black comedian but he stated that whites had abused the word "******" so much they no longer had the right to say it. I feel the same way about the Confederate battle flag.

Whites don't have the 'right' to use epithets? They absolutely do. Violence may result, but that doesn't bar them from being able to legally say it, same goes with any symbology. You seem to get offended very easily. Someone called you a dummy (your offended over that?!). If someone offends you, so what?! As far as I'm concerned, if you get offended because of anything short of physical attack, it is just as much your fault as the person flinging the 'attack'. You dwell to much on idle semantics. Flags and derogatory names cannot hurt you if you don't let them. And don't give me that 400 years of oppresion. Only a disgustingly egocentric person would be able to say that 400 years of slavery is symbolised in a word or flag, when in reality they are making excuses to justify their hurt ego. Its simply a waste of time. You say you believe people should be able to fly the flag. What are you still arguing about? Its racist? Who cares?!

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by Mescalhead

You say you believe people should be able to fly the flag. What are you still arguing about? Its racist? Who cares?!

I have several friends that are deeply offended when they hear people saying the Confederate flag stands for racism.

Why? Simple - for them it doesn't.

So to answer your question about who cares, and answer it in a generic way - the answer is anyone that interprets a symbol in a different manner than you.

Which is, of course, exactly what this thread is about.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Formaldehyde]

Originally posted by eyrei


Judging by many of your posts, you think people who fly this flag are evil. The next step is to try to keep them from 'infecting' the rest of us with their 'evil'. If you haven't taken that step, then I applaud you for it, because it is one that a good number of people who believe as you do have taken.

I strongly feel that the First Amendment is sacred.

Originally posted by eyrei
Freedom of speech only applies in the US if it doesn't offend anyone in anyway in any degree. Thus we have political correctness, and the confederate flag is certainly not politically correct.

I abhor political correctness and there are no bounds on the First Amendment other than the obvious such as shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater.

Originally posted by ravensfire


I have several friends that are deeply offended when they hear people saying the Confederate flag stands for racism.

Why? Simple - for them it doesn't.

So to answer your question about who cares, and answer it in a generic way - the answer is anyone that interprets a symbol in a different manner than you.

Which is, of course, exactly what this thread is about.

-- Ravensfire

So tell me - what exactly is it your friend's think the North did to them recently to feel this way - that they feel the need to wave this symbol that has so many negative connotations to so many to show the world of their plight?

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Good post Ravensfire. Finally a completely objective statement.

Let me try to explain the provincialism of the South, it has a lot to do with geography and industrialization. The South stayed more agrarian than the north, while the North industrialized, factories and railroad networks. You can see this on any old map about that time period, there is hardly any railheads in the south while NY, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana are a spiderweb of railroads. Railroads facilitate trasport, and what do they transport, poeple. And what do poeple take with them? Ideas. With this ease of movement from the East Coast to the Midwest through the "Rust Belt". So ideas about nationlism, connectivity and identity were more homogenous throughout this area. Now take a look at the South. Poeple there were more likely to claim themselves as Georgians 1st, American's 2nd. (and some still do). Why? because there wasn't much movement of great masses of poeple. not enough good roads, mostly farms/planations in the way so Southerners were more inclined to think of the local area than national.

I learned these FACTS in my Cultural Landscapes class last week. The professor put up a slide that graphically illustrated this point. He posted the results that some other professor had done years ago. The research was on how many landmarks,schools,statues,roads and anything else that could be given a name was named after a national figure, all detailed across the US by county. The more that wss found, the darker the county was indicated. The north was mostly dark while the south was conspicuously pale with a few patches near the larger cities shaded a little more than the surrounding countyside. When aligned with the railraod network it was a near match. This is a historical account on why the south is so provincial but i this global world that is seen as a backward and bad thing,but again, just opinion.
I hope that put some insight on the grounds that I am argueing from about why southerners see the flag as a symbol of their local/states rights. Maybe if the south had been more industrialized and more connected with the north, there might not have been a Civil War.

 

[eyrei]

So, considering the thread topic: Justify using the Confederate flag!

The debate is really about whether those who wish to fly this flag are justified in doing so. On this, many of us who have different opinions on what the flag represents can agree, I think.

 

[Mescalhead]

Originally posted by ravensfire


I have several friends that are deeply offended when they hear people saying the Confederate flag stands for racism.

Why? Simple - for them it doesn't.

So to answer your question about who cares, and answer it in a generic way - the answer is anyone that interprets a symbol in a different manner than you.

Which is, of course, exactly what this thread is about.

-- Ravensfire

I'm not trying to defend any set of beliefs other than letting people do what they want as long as it does not physically or financially injure anyone else. People get offended too easily. These people should try living in abject poverty or with a mental disorder and then see if they concern themselves with getting 'offended' by other's opinions. Its absolutely ridiculous. People need to have a proverbial skin of iron. If not, they have no one to blame but themselves for whatever 'offence' they have to bare.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Getting offended is a priveledge of the idle. There's more important things to worry about than a piece of cloth, really.

On a lighter note I think the design is cool.

 

[Mescalhead]

Originally posted by Wyrmshadow
Getting offended is a priveledge of the idle. There's more important things to worry about than a piece of cloth, really.

On a lighter note I think the design is cool.

Aesthetically speaking, definately one of the better flags.

 

[MarineCorps]

Yet oddly enough it's not the countries flag thats flying its the battle flag, intresting.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by Formaldehyde

So tell me - what exactly is it your friend's think the North did to them recently to feel this way - that they feel the need to wave this symbol that has so many negative connotations to so many to show the world of their plight?

Okay, I'm quite confused here. Where did "The North" come from? I'm going to assume (always a dangerous thing) that you assume they are diehard wanna-be Confederates wanting to fight the North again. The South Shall Rise Again! And all that stuff.

I really hope you didn't assume something like that. There is nothing, nothing in any of my posts that might possibly lead you to that assumption. Unless you are simply trying to stereotype them.

Now, to answer your loaded question. I'm going to try to parse it, bear with me.

"what exactly is it your friend's think the North did to them recently to feel this way"

Whew - had to figure that one out. Quick answer to your literal question - Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

"that they feel the need to wave this symbol"

This is a symbol they are proud of - should they not wave it?

"that has so many negative connotations to so many to show the world of their plight? "

Ahh, the loaded part. In fact, loaded twice! Nicely done, I'm almost impressed.

Unfortunetly, you failed to read and understand my earlier posts. So, I'll give you some time to do that right now. Go ahead - I'll wait.

Read them? Good. Now you understand that my friends believe the Confederate flag represents certain things. Just in case you didn't get it earlier, they aren't racist, don't like racists, and don't like groups that use the flag as a symbol of racism, either for or against racism.

They fly the flag because it represent certain ideals that they support. They fly the flag because some of their ancestors fought under that flag for the ideal they support.

As to the loaded part of your question - come on. Leave the cheap theatrics behind, they aren't needed.

EDIT:
@eyrei: To the question of why anyone should fly the Confederate flag, or for that matter display any symbol, I feel the answer is a personal one. That symbol represents certain beliefs that you believe in. Showing that symbol tells those who see it that you support those beliefs. The problem is that any symbol can be viewed by different groups in very different ways, resulting in one person displaying a symbol to support certain beliefs, but another person thinking that person support certain other beliefs.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Mescalhead]

Originally posted by MarineCorps
Yet oddly enough it's not the countries flag thats flying its the battle flag, intresting.

I've wondered that myself. It may have its roots in the Reconstruction, I would think. It is definately more striking than the Republican flag.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by MarineCorps
Yet oddly enough it's not the countries flag thats flying its the battle flag, intresting.

Thanks for the reminder - I kept forgetting that.

My personal belief is that the Confederacy was a nation of conflict - nearly it's entire existance it was fighting the US. For many people of that era, the symbol of the Confederacy WAS the battle flag.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Originally posted by MarineCorps
Yet oddly enough it's not the countries flag thats flying its the battle flag, intresting.

True, the public really can't I dentify this one:

But it's the Battle Flag that is in an uproar. This was the regimental falg of the Army of Northern Virginia.

This is important symbolism because poeple are supporting the fight for their own rights, rather than the government that secceded. A little metaphorical I know but you get the idea.

Read some of the presnet etymology of the flag here

 

[MarineCorps]

Reminds me of the Texas flag.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

I'm just regurgitating quote so forgive me

Legislation concerning the confederate flags
Due to the constitutional rights of freedom of speech (oral and otherwise) there are no laws forbidding the display of any of the confederate flags. An American president attempted to return the captured battle flags to the Southern states in the 1800's but due to opposition from the Grand Army of the Republic, a veterans organization of the federals, the federals did not return them until the twentieth century.
William M. Grimes-Wyatt, 23 January 1996

Pro change
It is widely believed that the only reason for the civil war was slavery. As a symbol of abuse of blacks by whites, this emblem of hate must be destroyed. Every usage must be forbidden. As an aside, three men were recently convicted of murder for killing a boy, who had a confederate naval jack on his pick-up truck.
William M. Grimes-Wyatt, 23 January 1996

Anti change
There are several reasons for people to retain the use of southern emblems:

Hatred of the North - The civil war was the first modern war waged upon civilian population. In an attempt to destroy the ability of the South to resist, their countryside was laid waste. The period of reconstruction (or occupation) lasted in one form or another for up to one hundred years. There are those that believe that the industrial North with many diverse immigrants still lords it over the rural south with its traditional values.
Anti-black sentiment - Just as blacks have rallied against the Southern symbols, whites have resisted just as fiercely.
Pride in the efforts of their forefathers to secure independence.
The South has a heritage that is distinct from that of the North and reveres the past.
There are those that believe that the Celtic ancestry of many Southerners leads them to glorify lost causes. Just as followers of Bonnie Prince Charlie survived for several generations, (indeed, some Scots still harbor hopes of independence today), there are those who insist that forgive Hell. It is quite an affront for a Frenchman or Brit for example to call a Redneck, a Yankee.
William M. Grimes-Wyatt, 23 January 1996

Legal Actions
The only national legislative action ever taken, to the best of my knowledge, was the recent refusal of congress to extend the copyright of the Daughters Of the Confederacy's insignia, which included the Stars and Bars, due to political pressure by members of congress.
William M. Grimes-Wyatt, 24 January 1996


See, all politics.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Originally posted by MarineCorps
Reminds me of the Texas flag.

ok, HOW??????? And as a Fightin' Texas Aggie, I want to know how you came to that conclusion.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Revensfire,

OK. You didn't like the way I posed my question. I finally got that thanks to your post.

However, you failed to address the question: Why do they want to wave the flag? What specifically does it mean to them?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Revensfire,

OK. You didn't like the way I posed my question. I finally got that thanks to your post.

However, you failed to address the question: Why do they want to wave the flag? What specifically does it mean to them?