HighlandWarrior
Mr Political Analyser
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2003
- Messages
- 1,528
how does the land rightfully belong to the arabs? . what about the jews who were there before israel was a state fighting the british? those jews don't count?
To the "X should own it all" voters
- Thread starter HannibalBarka
- Start date
Desmond Hawkins
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2002
- Messages
- 9,922
It really is hard for me to discount the Jews, considering the historical struggle against the british, while sitting in BRITISH concentration camps after WWII in Cyprus.
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
Because they have chosen to cast their lot with them. In many cases, they are being used as tools of the Arab states, but this is no reason to go along with the intentions and goals of the surrounding states.
Why not Madagascar?
Those regions have no link to the Jews nor do they have majority or even significant Jewish populations. The Wailing Wall is not in Toronto; the fate of Jewish holy sites if put into Arab hands in the current and forseeable future climate is not a bright one.
One is not saying that the Palestinian Arabs should be resettled in Poland, Siberia, or the air, but in the country right next door which has the same historical and cultural links, and has a majority population of Palestinian Arabs.
If there is no desire for peace, and action upon it from the Arab side, then there can be no unilateral action. Israel is not going to abolish itself, nor allow itself to be abolished, or put in a situation where it cannot defend itself.
WickedSmurf
pr0
Dudes. Whatever, really. There won't be a solution to this conflict ever. Israel should never have been founded back in the 40's. Undo that misshappening and taa daa problem solved. That is in fact the most realistic solution.
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
Linking 'undoing the past' and 'realistic' is where the problems start, particularly when what you propose to undo is a nuclear armed sovereign state.
WickedSmurf
pr0
I know that the link inbetween is impossible and I was being somewhat sarcastic, but it is still the most probable way to solve it. What other way is there? There won't ever be a peace process that works. It will not happen.
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
There are other ways than a peace process, as outlined. Sometimes, there can be no peace.
WickedSmurf
pr0
Move the palestinians to Jordan? Excuse me but that's just idiotic. Move the jews back to whereever they came from instead.
Nevermind, forget it. I will not get further involved in a repeating and somewhat boring discussion like this.
Nevermind, forget it. I will not get further involved in a repeating and somewhat boring discussion like this.
Archer 007
Rebirth
Many people improperly refer to Muslims as Arabs. I dont think RMS mean any offense by it.
De Lorimier
North American Scum
Didn't meant to be offensive huh? Let's see what he wrote:
If I said that Jews had enough land in the US or in any western countries to live on that wouldn't be right and I know it. I think he knew what he was saying. He's an offensive guy...that's why we like him!
Norlamand
Procrastinator Rex
Many of them were born in Israel. What do you do with them? Retroactive abortion?
Not to bash the worlds most repected body, but the UN started the whole thing, why aren't they fixing it?
De Lorimier
North American Scum
I agree that the UN should be doing something but the question is what? What can they do?
Archer 007
Rebirth
Well, I think we all realise that its too late to just move Israel back out.
HannibalBarka
We are Free
Well if that is your criteria, then the US is a good place for the Israeli, since there is a lot of place out there, they share a lot of cultural links with the Americans and there are more jews in the US than in Israel. Will they accept to cross the Atlantic, I think not.
So settling the Palestinian against their will in Jordan make as much sense as settling the Israeli in Nevada.
And the Palestinian of Jordan are refugee of the 48 and 67 wars. Wanna finish the job ?
Little Raven
On Walkabout
Because they can't. Anything the UN tries to do is promptly vetoed by the US. They can't even put international monitors in place, because Israel (and thus, the US) opposes those. As long as the US is willing to use its veto to protect the right wing of the Israeli government, the UN is powerless.
There's hope. The US is slowly abandoning its Cold-War mentality towards the region. I'll give Bush credit where it's due; he was willing to push the Israelis harder than any president before him. But structural changes like this take a long time.
I think its very likely that these two parties will need significant help from a third party if they are going to find peace. Even though both sides continue to want peace, neither side trusts the other at all, and its easy to see why. Third-party intervention seems like the best hope we have. And frankly, given the political state of the world today, that party is probably going to have to be the US, or at least, be in close cahoots with the US. And we cannot function in that role unless we adopt a more neutral stance. I think we're slowly beginning to understand that. I hope so, anyway.
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
No, that is nonsensical. The US has no historical nor cultural links with the Jews, and are of a rather different background and basis. It provides no guarantee for Jewish survival if the government/views of the US take a turn over time towards something different.
There is a distinct difference between the geographical proximity of one side of the River Jordan and the other, and Israel and Nevada. An extremely marked difference; the east bank is in the same zone and historical area, and is a few kilometres away. Nevada is a little bit further, and a whole world away. As well as being the site of the most nuclear explosions in the world; moving the Jewish nation to a site with more background radiation may appeal to some, but not to all.
Yes, finish the job, and bring about a solution that is lasting, secure and final.
Little Raven
On Walkabout
Simon, for someone who likes to lecture on reality when it comes to the middle east, you conveniently overlook the fact that your solution is every bit as fanciful as transporting every Israeli to Madagascar. It cannot be done; neither Jordan nor any other nation would ever accept the forced migration of over a million people into their borders.
And even if they were forced to by the IDF, ethnically cleansing the Palestinians is just as much a death knell for Israel as moving the Jews. Even in the amazingly unlikely scenario where the US looks the other way, Europe would not. America could conceivable use its veto to protect Israel from the UN, but they could not stop the EU from issuing economic sanctions against Israel, which they most certainly would. Trade with Europe is vital to the Israeli economy, and if it were cut off, Israel as we know her today would quickly collapse.
We are long past the point where we can either "finish the job" or "undo the mistake." Neither the Israelis or the Palestinians are going anywhere. Whether they do so as part of one state or two, they are going to have to learn to live together. Those of us lucky enough to live somewhere else need to help them do so, not hide behind ludicrous notions of solving the problem by eliminating one side.
And even if they were forced to by the IDF, ethnically cleansing the Palestinians is just as much a death knell for Israel as moving the Jews. Even in the amazingly unlikely scenario where the US looks the other way, Europe would not. America could conceivable use its veto to protect Israel from the UN, but they could not stop the EU from issuing economic sanctions against Israel, which they most certainly would. Trade with Europe is vital to the Israeli economy, and if it were cut off, Israel as we know her today would quickly collapse.
We are long past the point where we can either "finish the job" or "undo the mistake." Neither the Israelis or the Palestinians are going anywhere. Whether they do so as part of one state or two, they are going to have to learn to live together. Those of us lucky enough to live somewhere else need to help them do so, not hide behind ludicrous notions of solving the problem by eliminating one side.
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
It doesn't matter what Jordan thinks, nor any of the other surrounding states. It is certainly more humane than shooting them all, be it one at a time, or gradually in an endless conflict. They will not 'learn to live together', and there have been plenty of opportunities. All manner of tactics and pressures have been tried and applied. Going through the same procedures of empty negotiation and rhetoric again will not defibrilate life back into a corpse which is in rigor mortis, and beginning to smell.
Europe has abandoned Israel before in 73; it would make matters difficult, but not insurmountable; difficult times make for interesting bedfellows, and Taiwan would play an increased role, just as Israel and South Africa were close in the 1970s and 1980s.
Until it is acknowledged in word and deed by the Arab side that Israel is here to stay, and has a right to do so, then the situation goes to hell in a handbasket. Already the wall being constructed is indicative of the necessity of severance, be it a wall, river, or the cloak of Mannanan.
Europe has abandoned Israel before in 73; it would make matters difficult, but not insurmountable; difficult times make for interesting bedfellows, and Taiwan would play an increased role, just as Israel and South Africa were close in the 1970s and 1980s.
Until it is acknowledged in word and deed by the Arab side that Israel is here to stay, and has a right to do so, then the situation goes to hell in a handbasket. Already the wall being constructed is indicative of the necessity of severance, be it a wall, river, or the cloak of Mannanan.
Little Raven
On Walkabout
Dude, why the impatience? North Ireland was a violent mess for 200 years! Israel has only been in the territories for 40. Give it time. The notion that Israel will shoot them all is patently ridiculous. The Palestinian population is steadily increasing, even with Intifada in full force.
We haven't even begun to apply all manner of tactics and pressures. Israel has barely felt any pressure at all, and only recently have the G8 nations begun to coordinate a strategy for the region. Yeah, the Road Map fell through, but there will be other plans. How many peace plans fell apart in North Ireland before one finally worked?
Just as you can never step into the same river twice, no two peace plans are ever applied to quite the same region. Each time, both sides are poorer, more tired, and more eager for peace, even if they are less trusting of the opposition. Eventually, most people get tired of fighting. We can hope the same thing will happen in the middle east.
Trade with Europe makes up almost 40% of the Israel's GDP. There is no nation in the world that can replace that. And Israel is not exactly in a position of economic strength right now. The Hisdarut are striking; and the poor are rapidly getting poorer even as the government moves to slash aid to low income families. Israel as we know her today could not survive European sanctions. And this assumes the extremely unlikely event that the US ignores Israel's move. Given our own interests in the region, we do not want to see Jordan toppled. We generally try to support Israel, but an action such as ethnic cleansing would almost certainly end that support. Do you really think Israel can afford to lose her most powerful ally?
A solution must, and eventually will be found. It may be a one-state solution, or it may be a two-state solution. But whichever one is eventually adopted, it will include both peoples remaining in Eretz Yisreal. There is no getting around that fact, however uncomfortable it may make things. We cannot undo Israel, and we cannot erase the Palestinians. Both are here to stay. And the majority of both sides want peace. What we can do is make sure to support the right people on both sides, and attempt to break the hold that radicals hold over each side.
We haven't even begun to apply all manner of tactics and pressures. Israel has barely felt any pressure at all, and only recently have the G8 nations begun to coordinate a strategy for the region. Yeah, the Road Map fell through, but there will be other plans. How many peace plans fell apart in North Ireland before one finally worked?
Just as you can never step into the same river twice, no two peace plans are ever applied to quite the same region. Each time, both sides are poorer, more tired, and more eager for peace, even if they are less trusting of the opposition. Eventually, most people get tired of fighting. We can hope the same thing will happen in the middle east.
Trade with Europe makes up almost 40% of the Israel's GDP. There is no nation in the world that can replace that. And Israel is not exactly in a position of economic strength right now. The Hisdarut are striking; and the poor are rapidly getting poorer even as the government moves to slash aid to low income families. Israel as we know her today could not survive European sanctions. And this assumes the extremely unlikely event that the US ignores Israel's move. Given our own interests in the region, we do not want to see Jordan toppled. We generally try to support Israel, but an action such as ethnic cleansing would almost certainly end that support. Do you really think Israel can afford to lose her most powerful ally?
A solution must, and eventually will be found. It may be a one-state solution, or it may be a two-state solution. But whichever one is eventually adopted, it will include both peoples remaining in Eretz Yisreal. There is no getting around that fact, however uncomfortable it may make things. We cannot undo Israel, and we cannot erase the Palestinians. Both are here to stay. And the majority of both sides want peace. What we can do is make sure to support the right people on both sides, and attempt to break the hold that radicals hold over each side.
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
The use of the past tense in regards to Northern Ireland is interesting.
Why impatience? Because death is occuring now, and shows no sign of halting. And while all the jolly plans, negotiations and wank is going on, death still occurs unabated. The terrorist Palestinian leadership uses truce periods, long or short, as tactical pauses to prepare for the next offensive. Until there is a fundamental change in that, there is no chance of rosy peace.
One didn't say that they will shoot them all, only that moving them is perhaps a better option than doing so in terms of extreme solutions.
Applying pressure to Israel will not change the fundamentals of the situation, or have any bearing on the other side, where the problem lies.
Israel has shown itself to be capable of peace and giving up land for peace in the Sinai, as long as its security was assured and peace was made.
Neither side shows any sign of tiring, and simply asserting that they may is different from showing clear signs.
Countries can adapt to hardship, isolation and persecution, and security and survival are the paramount issues. A move would not necessarily topple Jordan, but rather alter its demographic. Israel is capable of surviving without the US. It would not be pretty, but any abandonment would not be permanent. Ethnic cleansing has been given a bad connotation by past events, but is a better alternative than endless war, and courses of action that may come from that.
One is not suggesting that the Palestinian Arabs be erased; if I was, it would be clear. The majority of one side does not want peace enough to act on it; they are under the sway of radicals, but there is an undercurrent of support. It is all well and good to try and support the 'right people' on the Palestinian side, but then they are undermined by other elements who wish different outcomes. The Israeli radicals hold no comparable position of power.
Endless chances cannot be given, particularly with other externalities at play.
Why impatience? Because death is occuring now, and shows no sign of halting. And while all the jolly plans, negotiations and wank is going on, death still occurs unabated. The terrorist Palestinian leadership uses truce periods, long or short, as tactical pauses to prepare for the next offensive. Until there is a fundamental change in that, there is no chance of rosy peace.
One didn't say that they will shoot them all, only that moving them is perhaps a better option than doing so in terms of extreme solutions.
Applying pressure to Israel will not change the fundamentals of the situation, or have any bearing on the other side, where the problem lies.
Israel has shown itself to be capable of peace and giving up land for peace in the Sinai, as long as its security was assured and peace was made.
Neither side shows any sign of tiring, and simply asserting that they may is different from showing clear signs.
Countries can adapt to hardship, isolation and persecution, and security and survival are the paramount issues. A move would not necessarily topple Jordan, but rather alter its demographic. Israel is capable of surviving without the US. It would not be pretty, but any abandonment would not be permanent. Ethnic cleansing has been given a bad connotation by past events, but is a better alternative than endless war, and courses of action that may come from that.
One is not suggesting that the Palestinian Arabs be erased; if I was, it would be clear. The majority of one side does not want peace enough to act on it; they are under the sway of radicals, but there is an undercurrent of support. It is all well and good to try and support the 'right people' on the Palestinian side, but then they are undermined by other elements who wish different outcomes. The Israeli radicals hold no comparable position of power.
Endless chances cannot be given, particularly with other externalities at play.
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