To the "X should own it all" voters

[Little Raven]

Why is the use of the past tense interesting? We are discussing the possibility of a troubled region reaching lasting peace agreement. I think North Ireland definitely qualifies as such. Certainly there are still tensions, even occasional outbreaks of violence, but the peace has largely held. Certainly, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who would not agree that the situation has vastly improved in the last 10 years.

Yes, death is still happening. But your solution will hardly put an end to that. In fact, it would probably increase it 10 times over. First, the IDF would have to forcibly open Jordan's borders. Then the Palestinians would have to be forced from their homes and made to march defenseless into a land that would not welcome them. Then would come the sanctions on Israel; just ask the Iraqis what a good time those mean. Death, death, death on every count. The loses from the Intifada are tragic, but let's keep some perspective here. Israel still loses more people to traffic accidents than terrorism. Your plan would destroy a nation and deliver death to hundreds of thousands of current and future innocents. It's the equivalent of amputating an arm to cure a broken wrist.

Israel did show that it was willing to give up the Sinai. It has not shown that it is willing to give up the territories. I direct your attention to Israel's latest attempt to "evacuate" the settlers, which was a complete joke. Most Israelis are willing to give up the territories, but the settlers obviously are not, and they wield considerable power within the Israeli government. External pressure will be needed to compensate for the influence.

The claim that Jordan would not be toppled shows remarkable ignorance of the region. There is no way the government of Jordan could survive an influx of over a million people. The government would most certainly fall, and the anarchy that followed would leave hundreds of thousands dead.

This war is not endless. To dismiss it as such is a disservice to both sides. The fact is that the majority of both people still want peace. Yes, elements on both sides want to prevent that. But if the rest of the world cooperates, we can overcome those pressures. It may take some time. Again, look at Ireland. But it will happen, one way or the other.

Endless chances not only can be given, we have no other choice but to give them. On the positive side, one of them will eventually succeed.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

I consider Northern Ireland to be hardly a permanent arrangement, but rather a lull that continues because it serves the tactical purposes of the terrorists. The situation has improved, but it also improved on occasions last century before falling back into the same procedure.
Furthermore, Ireland is a totally different place, with totally different cultures, peoples and historical basis.

It would be minimal compared to the longer term prospects, and eminently workable from a practical perspective. Any European sanctions would not be of the same nature as Iraq. Israel has been abandoned, isolated and given up before; it has made quite the habit of thriving in such circumstances.

The US also loses more to traffic accidents than terrorism, but this does not make terrorism acceptable, or permissible. It would not destroy a nation, but rather make the Arab states do something about the Palestinian Arabs rather than using them as a point of rhetoric to obscure their own shortcomings. It is amputating an arm to remove a withered gangrenous hand that has no hope of being saved, and offers only eventual death to the rest of the body.

Jordan would alter, but would not fall into the fiery abyss. A change of governments, certainly, but the entity would not topple. The chaos described is a good indicator of the consequences of any right of return.

If appropriate conditions are met, and security is assured, the settlers will be removed quite ruthlessly, as they were from Sinai. When Egypt made lasting peace, the Sinai was no longer needed as defensive depth. The West Bank of the Jordan is even more significant strategically; the removal of Iraq as a threat is one step, and a reckoning with Iran will also sweeten the deal. But any release of territory requires a heck of a lot in return, especially considering what Israel's strategic position would without the West Bank.

The conflict is without end, unless there is decisive action of some description. There are no signs of this occuring. There is no sign that the majority of Palestinians want peace, or are capable of acting upon this desire. Your optimism is based on highminded sentiments and hopes; this is an ancient conflict, and one that will continue. It cannot be allowed to continue in its current format due to other factors which make it a greater danger. Unless the current Palestinian terrorist leadership and the terrorist groups are eliminated, and the Arab states do their part, then there is no solution but separation.

Endless chances are the stuff of appeasement. Plenty of chances have been given, and abused. Eventually a line has to be drawn, and clear consequences set out. If they are not met, then appropriate action without mercy should be taken. If they will not take the chance to make peace, then to hell with them.

 

[Little Raven]

Minimal costs? Are you serious? Let's do a little math here.

The Intifada at its most ruthless claims about 1000 lives per year. This includes deaths on both sides. How many people do you really think would be killed in the process of uprooting every Palestinian, transporting them to the Jordan border, forcing open the Jordan borders, then herding the defenseless Palestinians in and having the Jordanian government collapse? 100000? 500000? 1000000? And you call these costs minimal? You are either being willingly blind or have interests besides saving lives, because the mathematics of your solution are deeply flawed.

Your pessimism is based on ignorance of the situation. This is not an ancient conflict. It isn't even a century old. Nor is it hopeless. Difficult, yes, but far from hopeless. Most people on both sides want the same thing. The leadership on both sides stinks. But leadership will change. Even Arafat is not immortal. Sooner or later, the cycle will break. And if the rest of the world cooperates in a positive manner, as we have been seeing more of lately, we can definitely make that sooner rather than later.
Separation may well be part of the solution. But it will be separation within Eretz Yisreal, not separation between Israel and Jordan. The Palestinians are not going anywhere. Neither are the Israelis. It does no good to pretend otherwise.

Endless chances are the stuff of reality. Hundreds of children on both sides have been born today. They must be given a chance. Whatever the sins of their parents, they have a new opportunity to make things right. We have to make sure they get it.