Tony Blair Announcing His Retirement

[ComradeDavo]

Prezza's going as well.

 

[HAND]

I think Blair's fate was decided in the November 2000 US elections, since Gore would not have gone into Iraq.

Before we judge Blair too harshly, we must understand the British Government behind the scenes, are desperate to maintain the UK-USA or "English-speaking-Alliance".

The preservation of this diplomatic/military Alliance was perhaps the main reason the UK followed the USA into Iraq above anything else.
Yes, Blair probably lied about/distorted proof of WMD but he had to sell the invasion somehow, so that the alliance would be honoured.

Gordon Brown may not have gone into Iraq in the same strength as Blair, if at all. He would have however, been under extraordinary pressure from both the USA and the British Government to commit some forces .

If there was no commitment from the UK, no doubt the lack of cooperation would have been duly noted by the USA for years/decades to come. Only 18 months after 9/11, the UK most likely would considered to be a "fair weather friend" rather than the closest ally of America.

 

[Miles Teg]

This is a little weird. Its strange to think that the figures who have dominated politics as long as I've been politically aware (Bush, Putin, Chirac, Blair) are all stepping down.

Same here. Although I admit I learned who the president of France was about a week ago

 

[DYNAMICS]

Prezza's going as well.

the fat **** should leave via the back door.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

But it does pose a more interesting question of who will be DPM. Since PM is likely to be a foregone conclusion.

 

[cthom]

I agree, I don't mind having a capable Scottish PM as I'm sure GB will be. But I would like to be asked.

i wish someone stood an earthly against gb, but he's a definite shoo-in. btw, this is not the first a new pm has stepped in: wilson->callaghan, thatcher->major are two recent examples. i don't recall being asked in either case. but i don't count

 

[nonconformist]

I wish robin Cook were still alive :sigh:

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

i wish someone stood an earthly against gb, but he's a definite shoo-in. btw, this is not the first a new pm has stepped in: wilson->callaghan, thatcher->major are two recent examples. i don't recall being asked in either case. but i don't count

True. It wasn't right back then either. But I suppose the Constitution doesn't allow for us to choose.

 

[bigfatron]

He's not all bad but certainly not all good. I suspect he will come to be seen as one of the best recent PMs with the proviso of the blot that is Iraq.

He's done some good things to improve the social fabric of the country - minimum wage, improved public transport, upgrading hospitals and schools (the structural upgrade backlog that this government inherited was absolutely massive and is easily forgotten).

He's also been in charge while the country has become a better place to do business and a better place to live (rise in crime halted and even slightly reversed - despite what the tabloid press would have us believe!), with a far more of a relaxed culture about our towns and cities.

And we've seen a significant rise in living standards over his tenure (once again, ironically, living standards have risen faster under a 'socialist' government than a right-wing administration).

Lastly on the plus side he has brought the Northern Ireland issue to a conclusion, and done so in the teeth of determined resistance from many in the province.

Bad things are easy to list:
- Iraq, a mistake fortold and utterly avoidable
- Moreover, the unavoidable dropping of the Afghan ball to allow Iraq to proceed; a betrayal of an entire country
- Words rather than substance in respect to sleaze; while not as bad as the Tories (people forget just HOW incredibly corrupt they were) the stench hangs around TB almost worse because he made so much of being 'whiter than white' - his phrase, not mine.
- Politicisation of the civil service and military; began by Thatcher, extended by Major, continued by Blair, and a scandal in each case.
- lacking focus on the issues he claimed to champion; Africa, Climate Change, EU development on free-market,union of mations basis. So many things started and then left unfinished.

More than anything though, it seems to me that his fault was to tend to accept what people told him if they said it with enough conviction - that doctors and nurses would be happier and work harder and better if paid a lot more (they are and they don't); that there were WMD in Iraq (there weren't); that the arab world could be innoculated with democracy (it hhasn't been); that civil liberties do need to be curtailed to fight terrorism (they don't); that progress can only be made if it can be measured through detailed targets and detailed instructions (it demonstrably can't).

Funnily enough, for a 'conviction' politician, it appears that it is when he has relied on other people's convictions that he has gone badly wrong.

Final thought - through all of the above criticisms it is easy to forget just how much worse the Tories were in nearly every single respect.......

 

[GinandTonic]

Final thought - through all of the above criticisms it is easy to forget just how much worse the Tories were in nearly every single respect.......

QFT

On Northern Ireland, while he did well to keep his eye on the ball his role must be kept in perspective. Perhaps Major's only achevement was making a decent start in NI. After 9/11 the republicans knew they were up the creek without a paddle with their funding and political cover from the states gone. Blair seems to have ballanced the carrot and the stick just about perfectly, and sending Mo to knock their heads togeather like errant schoolboys was a stroke of genius, but in many ways it was more that he didn't make an arse of it.

 

[bathsheba666]

@Bigfatron

I think there's a big hole in your logic.

You imply that Blair 'listened' to people, and was somehow led astray, for example with WMD.

This is the wrong way round. Have you not noticed that a couple of people were just jailed for trying to reveal the details of the meeting between Blair and Bush? Their consciences troubling them about what they knew?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/6641983.stm

I thought it was fairly well known that Blair and Bush decided to go to war first, and arrange the evidence later. By the time the wmd report was 'submitted' to Blair, it had already been rewritten - by people since promoted - to overstate the case. It is totally naive to think Blair was led by this faked content, when the content was altered to support a decision he had already taken.

The wmd report was an example of Blair's leadership, and not his being led.
He is an evil scumbag. You let him off too lightly.

"While not a single government minister has been held to account for the disastrous policy of war in Iraq, two men are imprisoned for trying simply to shed some light on Tony Blair's relationship with George Bush."

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

I don't think BFR was talking about 'the public' when he said that Blair was pursuaded into fighting the Iraq War.

Strange though that Tony Blair is the single biggest reason that Britian entered the Iraq War in the manner that it did. I thought we might have had more pro-war protestors posting thier thoughts here.

 

[CurtSibling]

Tony Blair Announcing His Retirement

It is about time.

His lies about Gulf War II were enough to make any decent statesman resign.

He dragged our nation into a war if we liked it or not. Then blamed everything
on his faith in a god. That kind of demented arrogance cannot go unanswered.

...

 

[CurtSibling]

Prezza's going as well.

He is the most corrupt lump of lard in the whole assembly.

And the other lump of lard is waiting to take over the PM job.

A bunch of champagne commie low lifes.

...

 

[bhsup]

True. It wasn't right back then either. But I suppose the Constitution doesn't allow for us to choose.

That may be your problem. Get yourself a single, supreme piece of paper from which all lawful practices in your nation flow and things like this wouldn't be an issue. Feel free to copy ours if you like, we won't mind, though as a matter of personal preference, I would suggest you use the Constitution of the Confederate States of America (sans the slavery part).

 

[CurtSibling]

That may be your problem. Get yourself a single, supreme piece of paper from which all lawful practices in your nation flow and things like this wouldn't be an issue. Feel free to copy ours if you like, we won't mind, though as a matter of personal preference, I would suggest you use the Constitution of the Confederate States of America (sans the slavery part).

That would be like the father copying homework from his son.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

That may be your problem. Get yourself a single, supreme piece of paper from which all lawful practices in your nation flow and things like this wouldn't be an issue. Feel free to copy ours if you like, we won't mind, though as a matter of personal preference, I would suggest you use the Constitution of the Confederate States of America (sans the slavery part).

And rid the Queen of her right to summarily sack our PM? No thanks, take your enlightenment elsewhere

 

[Brighteye]

I think Blair's fate was decided in the November 2000 US elections, since Gore would not have gone into Iraq.

Before we judge Blair too harshly, we must understand the British Government behind the scenes, are desperate to maintain the UK-USA or "English-speaking-Alliance".
...

If there was no commitment from the UK, no doubt the lack of cooperation would have been duly noted by the USA for years/decades to come. Only 18 months after 9/11, the UK most likely would considered to be a "fair weather friend" rather than the closest ally of America.

And what exactly does being an ally of the US get us? Nothing except hate from those who hate America? Do we get aid? No: we paid off all debt incurred in WW2 ourselves. Are we even helped in the wars we join? No: our troops have to buy their ammo at premium prices from Americans in Afghanistan, because they don't get enough of their own.

Same here. Although I admit I learned who the president of France was about a week ago

So did we all.

His lies about Gulf War II were enough to make any decent statesman resign.

He dragged our nation into a war if we liked it or not. Then blamed everything
on his faith in a god. That kind of demented arrogance cannot go unanswered.

...

He wasn't a decent statesman. He was an arrogant fool who believed his own proganda that he was the second coming of God himself. Of course he had faith in a God, since he thought that he was one.
Gordon Brown, although he has made mistakes, at least comes across as a man who understands that people disagree, and even understands their reasoning.
Tony Blair's legacy will be a faint smell in the wind of history. He left nothing concrete except a few disparate achievements and a great many failures, most notably the huge reliance on PFI (that will cost the economy), and the pensions problems.
He focussed on presentation, not substance, and now that he's gone, no-one will continue his presentation, and there's no substance by which to remember him.

 

[CurtSibling]

He wasn't a decent statesman. He was an arrogant fool who believed his own proganda that he was the second coming of God himself. Of course he had faith in a God, since he thought that he was one.
Gordon Brown, although he has made mistakes, at least comes across as a man who understands that people disagree, and even understands their reasoning.
Tony Blair's legacy will be a faint smell in the wind of history. He left nothing concrete except a few disparate achievements and a great many failures, most notably the huge reliance on PFI (that will cost the economy), and the pensions problems.
He focussed on presentation, not substance, and now that he's gone, no-one will continue his presentation, and there's no substance by which to remember him.

Buddy, we are on the same page here.

I said that a decent statesman would have resigned long ago.
I think anyone who has lived in the UK for a even a few months can
see that the Labour-Stalinists are not the party of decency...!

 

[ComradeDavo]

the fat **** should leave via the back door.

I always had a bit of respect for him after he punched out that guy!

A bunch of champagne commie low lifes.

You just had to get the commie dig in didn'tyou! I can't take any of your views on this seriously when you calll New Labour 'commies' It's like calling the Tories 'Nazis'...it's utterly ridiculus.