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Too easy to discover the whole world; and urban sprawl

Discussion in 'Orbis Modmod' started by Pazyryk, Sep 15, 2009.

  1. abqaiq93

    abqaiq93 Chieftain

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    Ok so here are two links that will help with my questions post above.

    1. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8467639&postcount=2
    2. The second link is a tutorial that I found very helpful, I am sure most people already know about but here it is:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=314201
     
  2. abqaiq93

    abqaiq93 Chieftain

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    Woohoo, this looks fun. This will make exploring take longer, but at least to me makes the world much larger. I copied these four attributes into the file listed below. These values will override the same values listed in XMLGlobalDefines.xml found in the BTS directory.

    This will make exploring each undiscovered tile use up both moves of the scout. But once the tile is visible normal movement is restored. You also can no longer see over mountains you have to explore both sides. This also makes the scout only see one tile all around him and normal units will only open up the tile they move into nothing surrounding it. Let me know what you guys think.

     
  3. abqaiq93

    abqaiq93 Chieftain

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    I also added these two things :

    I did end up putting map trading into the Education tech.

    The game has been real fun and it takes a while to explore and a long time before you can trade maps.
     
  4. abqaiq93

    abqaiq93 Chieftain

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    Ok, I am seeing stuff in this current game with the elves that I have never seen before. I have already lost 3 scouts before turn 60 (2 that I started with and 1 that I built). In all cases the barbarians have killed them.

    You can not see the goblin forts ahead of time. So you land on a tile on one turn, then during the ai turn, you get hit with arrows and then a goblin warrior comes and kill you. In previous games you would have saw the goblin fort and been able to bypass it, with these changes each tile is a surprise and you have to take more consideration of what type of tile you will end your turn in for defensive purposes.
     
  5. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

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    And they say my change to food consumption per population was frustrating... ;)

    But a really good idea guys, we can use wildlands a while longer....
     
  6. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    abqaiq93, I definitely want to try this. A few questions:
    What happens when you try to move your warrior into a tile you can't see? Can you do it? If so, what if there is a bad guy there? If I had a chariot (>1 move but not recon), does it use up all movement to move into a previously explored (but Fog of War) tile?
     
  7. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    In base Orbis, when you move a unit in an unseen tile which has an enemy unit, the move is simply cancelled.

    I'm also looking forward to try this :)
     
  8. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    It sure would give new meaning to the word "scout". The recon line would have a whole new and very necessary function as wilderness guides if you are trying to move your army or settlers. Still, a lot of possible problems with stacks, AI behavior, etc. Just have to try it and see.
     
  9. abqaiq93

    abqaiq93 Chieftain

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    When moving a unit into a unexplored tile, you expose that tile and use up your movement points. So far, that applies to scout, warrior, worker, settler, galley. It is only on the explored tiles that the actually unit movement is taken into account. I set fishing ships not to be able to move into unexplored tiles.

    I have not had this happen to me yet, but not for the obvious reason. So far with these settings, because I am using Erebius Continents map there are tons of forests, jungles, hills and mountains. You can only see the explored the tile your unit moves into. You do not expose any other tiles for most movements. So I move into a tile that is one movement point away from an enemy. You do not see that goblin fort, hill giant, spectre, wolf, bear, spider, etc the next tile over. When it is the ai's turn they attack you as a complete surprise, I have lost many scouts this way.

    So I have played 180 turns as the elves. Fun game, makes exploring a little easier with peace with animals so it is only the barbarians, spectres, hill giants, etc that attack you out of the fog. This was on a map with one big land mass, with all the civs living on it. By 180 turns I had only contact with 5 out of 10 on a large map. I had lost 6 scouts so far. In my previous games, I would use the 2 scouts that I started with and they would explore the world. I also would not need to build more of them, so I never really used hunters to actually explore and do their job. With these settings my first 2 initial scouts were both killed by turn 30 and I have had to build 4 more, which were all killed.

    The ai barbarians seem to prosper with all of this extra time in the dark. They seem to be walking around all over the place. Of course I do have the option selected Raging Barbarians.

    I have also played 210 turns as the launs. Something that I discovered, you must explore both land and sea. Your scout does not see that 1 or 2 extra square out into the water with these settings. For the most part the only way you know that you hit the coastline is to zoom the game up close and look for a beach or try to move and you can't. That means you have to build ships to even explore the coast water. Which means that to find a good city site, you have to have both a land and water unit explore if you want to find a good city site on the coast.

    As mentioned above ships use up all their movement points when moving into one new unexplored tile. Once the water is explored the use their normal movement.

    Also because fishing boats are set to no longer be able to move in unexplored tiles, you have to wait until sailing and the galley before being able to explore water. So your choice is to either explore inland and find your second city site, or prioritize the sailing tech asap so you can start exploring the water and try to find your second city site on the coast. Another added wrinkle to strategy based on your starting location and the race you are playing.

    These changes make a large map using Erebius Continents seem huge, because of the extra time that you need to explore.

    Overall I really like these changes, it prolongs the early stage of the game of exploration. It is sometimes tedious, but that vanishes the moment you end your turn, and have a barbarian appear out of nowhere and kill your unit. You swear at the monitor and then start to figure out when you can squeeze another scout into the build queue.
     
  10. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    Seems really nice! Care to share your files with us?
     
  11. abqaiq93

    abqaiq93 Chieftain

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    I am using the base Orbis mod patch H. In post 22 and 23 of this thread I list what changes I made and where. I am at work right now so I can not upload them for a while.
     
  12. Bootsiuv

    Bootsiuv Prince

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    Some good ideas here....

    I like the idea of certain early units (fishing boats being the worst offenders) being unable to explore FoW territory.

    I think promotions like "desert survivalist" or somesuch would be cool. A unit would be unable to pass through deserts without that promotion (I would probably include it into the malakim's desert nomad promo). Make it available around mid-game, and deserts turn into interesting choke points/walls. The same idea could probably be applied to Ice (given free to Illians and perhaps Doviello), Ancient Forest (included in the elven racial promo), and Deep Jungle (obviously this would be included within the lizardman racial promo).

    The Large roaming bosses is also a great idea if a mechanism exists (or could be created) to keep a unit within a 3x3 area of tiles (so it wouldn't wander away from it's "Lair" and begin attacking cities as that isn't the effect I think we should go for). You could just make them animals and at least they wouldn't cross into a nations territory, but I would like to see them stay in a certain forest or desert, as that fits in with a fantasy setting nicely.
     
  13. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    There are already <TerrainImpassables> and <FeatureImpassables> in unit XML. So, for example, one could do this: 1) On game start, look for a continuous patch of some tile type, say desert. You would want this to be an "island" of this type surrounded by other tile types. 2. Drop a boss monster in this that has TerrainImpassables turned on for every tile type except desert. I'm not sure but it might be possible to do this for forest by adding NO_FEATURE (as well as FEATURE_JUNGLE and all other types except forest) to FeatureImpassables (not sure if that would work but I'll try it).

    The "island" tile or feature type could be further specified in python code. Might be of a particular size (a small patch of 3-8 tiles; or a big patch of 100-200 tiles) and other constraint, like some distance from starting civilizations or presence of a specific unique feature. These could also arise later in the game, say in a patch of haunted lands (outside of Scion control) that grows to some particular size.

    Here's one example: create a boss sea monster that has TerrainImpassables ocean and FeatureImpassables kelp. Now drop him in some coastal area. He'll be restrained to a certain area by the occasional kelp. You now have stopped all further exploration along that stretch of coast for a long, long time (until optics, unless you commit a lot of triremes to getting rid of it). It's also not capricious or surprising to player. You might loose a ship or two, but you would learn soon enough that you just can't go along that particular coast. (I just wish the AI could learn this.)
     
  14. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    It sounds a bit complicated to code, though. Especially the "roaming area" thinging. I'm not sure how you could code it. Except perhaps by creating two new tags for improvements: RoamingSpawn and iRangeRoaming; the first would set which unit to spawn and the second the range at which the unit is limited... And even then, I'm not sure how to restrict the beast...
     
  15. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Opera, I'm always favorable to new tags being added, but my idea above should work with existing tags. The coast-guarding sea monster should work. It would be easier though if there were tags like <FeatureLimitedTo> and <TerrainLimitedTo> so that I could restrict a monster to a tile type instead of making all others impassible. (Also, I would much prefer to access these through promotion, so I can change it, than only in unit XML.) With this, there are two ways: 1) Look for existing "patches" of forest, or whatever, to drop the monster in. Or 2) create a whole new feature type ("Dead Swamp" or whatever); place on map; drop monsters in.
     
  16. Willgar

    Willgar Prince

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    Sounds interesting although i kinda got lost in the techie parts of this post. Could this game mechanic be added to base Orbis through a simple download of files or do i need to edit the xml myself??
     
  17. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    Well, you're free to try and then we will be able to discuss what needs to be done ;)

    Did anyone test abqaiq93's settings?

    @Willgar: No, it would require DLL work.
     
  18. Willgar

    Willgar Prince

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    As a side note, after seeing it mentioned here, i spent the morning setting up a base FfH2 41.d game to test Rise of Darkness modmod. Although it is a tad buggy (might be my install) has some very interesting game mechanic, 3 new races and guardian system for nodes. Not sure if the mod is being developed further by cyther http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=299914 but it is worth checking out just for its orginality.
     
  19. Schwarzbart

    Schwarzbart Prince

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    Saldly Rise of Darkness didnt work at my COmputer at all. (HUD was missing and after over 30 Minutes still processing Turn 1 I needed to reset my Computer to do anything)
     
  20. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Well, I think I could create some cool Hinterlands, but not with the current tags. TerrainImpassables and FeatureImpassables are annoying because they keep a unit out of some area rather than in an area. If I'm going to create a new boss monster to guard a particular forest patch, I need to keep him in forest. (I thought it might work to set FeatureImpassables to NO_FEATURE, so the boss couldn't walk onto a tile without a feature, but this produces an error.)

    Another possibility would be to use functions like these (from FFH scenarios):

    pPlot.isMoveDisabledAI()
    pPlot.setMoveDisabledAI(bool bNewValue)

    However, what I really want is something more like pPlot.setMoveDisabled(int iPlayer, bool bNewValue) so that I could exclude plots for a particular civ. Then I could create a new barb civ called Bosses and cage different individual bosses into particular regions of the map. (Even better, I could keep other AI players out of the area so they don't constantly suicide weak units there, at least until they were strong enough to defeat the boss.) Would this be an easy or hard change to .dll, Opera?
     

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