"Too many cities"... or too many bugs?

Minuteman

Minister of salty snacks
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Dec 30, 2001
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As if the excruciatingly long lags aren't bad enough when playing on a huge map (256x256) with 16 civs, neither the AI nor me can flesh out the remaining continents with cities in the monstrous world I've created. While the 1.16f patch increased the maximum number of cities that can be created from 256 to 512, it still isn't a high enough total. Hopefully, among other things, this issue will be properly addressed by Firaxis in the next patch.

In the interim, however, does anyone know if there is a feasible workaround to this problem? I've already searched the editor in vain for an option that would increase the maximum # of cities. Perhaps there's a file somewhere that I can tweak in order to achieve this?
 
It's hardcoded and it isn't likely to increase. Increasing this number dramatically increases the total memory footprint of the game because of the way the city trade networks are stored.

I should point out that just because you can play with 16 civs on a huge map doesn't mean it's an especially good idea. The game was designed for 8 civs or less on a normal sized map for ideal playability, and the more civs and map tiles you add to that, the slower the game will get and the more raw memory will be required.


Dan
 
Dan,

Thanks for responding to my post. If it was possible to increase the total number of cities in the game from 256 to 512, then why not up the total to 768? At the very least, that would give those who are willing to tolerate the extreme slowdown in game's fluidity under these settings the option to play the game as they choose.

I deduce from your moniker that you're part of the Firaxis team, right? If so, then is there anything that can, or rather, will be done about the intolerable slowdown that occurs in games played on large and huge maps?

I understand that the game's "optimal" settings are for games played on standard sized maps with only eight rival civs. However, since your company has opted to include this option in the game, and even advertised this option as one of many new "improvements" over previous editions, then why not see to it that it's as functional as possible? If that has already been done, then I must say that your company made a grievious error in permitting this option to be available to your customers in the first place.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not here to bludgeon you with some simplistic, agenda-driven diatribe. I'm only trying to help you make the game better for your customers, like me. Surely you want satisfied customers, don't you?
 
Actually, for most of the development cycle, 8 civs were the max, and this is in fact what we advertised and stated publicly. We got a LOT of fan requests for more than eight civs, and the programmers felt that 16 players could be implemented without breaking anything else, so we upped the max number of civs to 16, but we did keep the defaults at 8 and recommended 8 or less depending on your PC setup. The game, though, had not been designed for 16 civs from the beginning (which is obvious, given several of the game screens)

As for big-map slowdown, try the pref that completely turns off displaying the AI's moves (v1.16f patch). It should help considerably when you're playing 16 civs on a huge map. Other than that I don't know that there is much that can reasonably be done -- I suppose the AI could be dumbed down to recoup some processing time, but that doesn't seem like a very attractive choice...

The reason for not upping the city limit above 512 is simply because it would cause the required memory to exceed not only the min spec, but also a lot of folks above it. I'm not sure it's something that can be easily broken out and made modifiable, and I think there was actually a calculation done assuming a certain city density on the largest map size, which is how we arrived at 512, just FYI.

Dan
 
Just put a colonist where you want a city, raze your neighbors city, and build it!

I have the same slowdown problem on a huge map,... it takes me about 15 minutes to get through a turn, with all the wait time, troop movement, city micromanagement, empire management, foreign affairs (I knew I should have killed off more Civs).
 
Dan-
Because of the great increase in corruption, especially as distance from your Capitol and/or Forbidden Palace goes up, I have noticed a trend in my own gameplay, and somewhat it seems in SOME civs, to crowd cities in, especially around the Cap/FP. The desire to construct a border, seal out the AI from favorable city sites, and to remove open (not in your borders) tiles for "invading" AI settlers also seemed to push in that direction. The result is I very quickly have a larger number of cities then my former play in Civ II (I am afraid I must confess that I was a very "straight forward" civ player, and never even tried the ICS approach- it never occured to me to NOT try to maximize my city placement and strength- I didn't even know about the approach before reading about it on these forums. Call me naive.)

Perhaps SLIGHTLY toning down the AI "land grabbing" nature (I stress slightly because having a pushy AI overall is good), but better yet, modifing how corruption works from a distance perspective could help on this. Distance from Cap/FP SHOULD REMAIN part of the equation, but tone it down to about a third or a quarter. Boost it for other reasons to compensate a bit so that overall corruption drops somewhat, but remains an important hurdle for the player (AND AI!). It would seem to me that the factor to use here is city size. As (city size) population grows, corruption in that city increases ... everywhere in the empire, somwhat more further away for Cap/FP. OTOH, to prevent an ICS, let corruption incrase in SMALL cities that STAY small over long time periods (ie where growth doesn't happpen). This way, we simultate the greater corruption of the big city ... AND of the samll town sherriff in league with the "good old boys" running the village. By weakening the land grab aspects, and the distance aspect of corruption, there is less penalty to spreading cities out, hence fewer cities worldwide. And there is a reward for paying attention to and developing better quality cities, and not just plopping them down to block the AI (which I find myself doing a destressing amount of the time- paritculary to protect the roads through the desert or mountains, going that long way to the one source of iron or whatever, that I have).

To me, one of the most simply frustating and irritating aspect of CIv III is that trying to establish "outpost" of my civ (ie nets of cities) on other continents is so futile, in that the cities are almost all 1shield 1 gold producers. Yes, you can establish a FP, but only one. Perhaps a smaller cost and radii of effect for the FP, but let us build more- how about make the court house improvement do it, more expensive, but a "mini-FP" in effect. This way we could at least have some reward from expanding to other continents. It would have to be carefully balanced not to become to powerful of course. OR allow more, but a limited total number, of FP throughout your empire.

Just some thoughts. I just hate a continent full of 1 shield 1 gold producing, effectively, cities. And to prevent the AI from landgrabbing, it seems like I build a large number of them on "overseas" continents.
 
Dan,

Your tip about shutting off all of the AI's moves worked like the proverbial charm. Those God-awful lags have disappeared...thanks!

It's too bad about the limitation on the max # of cities, though. However, I understand what you're saying. It would have been ridiculous, not to mention suicidal from a marketing point of view, to have created a game that required outrageously high system specs. Considering the overall tone of some of the Civ 3 forums now, one could only imagine what they would have been like under those circumstances.

At any rate, I'll be sure to create reasonably sized continents in the editor the next time I want to play on a huge map.
 
Minuteman, you may also want to turn off the "show our automatic moves" and "animate our automatic moves" if you haven't done so. Particularly helpful if you have dozens and dozens of workers set on automatic.
 
You mean you don't like it when the AI builds crappy little cities on deserts (or tundra) surrounded by deserts and thus cuts off your road access from one of your good cities to another?!?

Happens to me all the time - so I have to build crappy little cities in deserts to block THE STUPID STINKING AI cities!!! :mad:

Patch it. :mad:
 
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