Top 3 Leaders

[The Rook]

I always considered Pericles to be amongst the better leaders at Immortal/Deity. Creative is obviously very useful to consolidate space on congested Deity maps. Philosophical can be very strong when utilised properly, and the trait is incredibly flexible. The Odeon is IMO highly underrated, particularly with Pericles. 40 hammers for an early building that yields +2 happy and +3 culture!

The UU is weak, though I generally find that only a handful of civs have consistently useful ones anyway. Start techs are admittedly poor, especially if huts are turned off. Pericles is still a good starter though. Hunting is a prerequisite for AH. Creative negates the need for Mysticism/Monuments. Fishing can make those weak coastal starts useful. I'll settle for poor early techs if I'm given a nice inland capital.

 

[babar]

I would rate Pericles somewhat above average.
Every aspect of him is slightly above average: the traits, with decent synergy, the (half price) UB. The UU is at least average as well. Completely ignoring the potentially crippling starting techs, he is one of the few leaders who has nothing crappy.
I agree with Nihil that the historically important Civs like Greece and China should be better though.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Fishing + hunting isn't the best, but do note that it puts you 1 tech or less away from every single good food resource with which you can start. Calendar resources aren't a skip + jump for anybody. You don't lose THAT much time as a result - it's not like livestock-only rome or japan where you are 2 techs from your food resource.

Not having mining hurts a little, but there are definitely worse tech combos. Pericles also fortunately avoids mysticism, saving you some early beakers in terms of expanding 1st/2nd cities after the capitol that can be placed toward BW, pottery, or writing instead.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Odeon allows you to run artists as well which makes Greece good for culture without having to run Caste all the time.

 

[Cull]

Mao

No explanation needed.

Perhaps Zara though for real? Nice traits, strong UU, but meh UU. And its starting traits suck. But its something different from the normal ones that are usually used.

 

[babar]

Still, hunting and fishing are usually the 2nd and 3rd worst starting techs. I don't like going straight to the expensive AH without mining or agriculture, because then your worker will have nothing to do (unless you have at least two livestock resources, which isn't very common). Hunting and fishing can be pretty awkward.

 

[plasmacannon]

I realized that when I looked back at my post, I didn't put the leaders I use most.
They may not be everyone's top picks, but, I have had good success with them on medium and small maps at epic speed.
With Unrestricted leaders being used, an empire's poor UB or starting techs isn't considered.
So, if we are talking about just the leaders I would choose:

1) Huayna Capal (IND/FIN) - builds wonders and techs well. A little boring if you want to promote quickly, but, does well in alot of situations.

2) Darius (FIN/ORG) - techs well, builds courthouses faster and reduces late game civics alot when having many cites, but, loses out on early wonders and overall combat strength to CHA leaders. Can tech fast enough to get to mid-game wonders and build them, which is nice. So, it depends on your strategy that game. Can usually do well.

3) Hannibal (CHA/FIN) - good units and techs well. My all around favorite flexible leader.

Honorable mentions to:
4) De Gaulle (CHA/IND) - good units and builds wonders.
5) Roosevelt (IND/ORG) - builds wonders and courthouses faster, lower civic costs
6) Napolean (CHA/ORG) - good units and builds courthouses faster, lower civic costs

With the votes she recieved, I will have to try Elizabeth next.

 

[Cull]

I find the use of industrious less of the wonders, but the half cost forges.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Cheaper National Wonders is useful too.

 

[The Rook]

Still, hunting and fishing are usually the 2nd and 3rd worst starting techs. I don't like going straight to the expensive AH without mining or agriculture, because then your worker will have nothing to do (unless you have at least two livestock resources, which isn't very common). Hunting and fishing can be pretty awkward.

If you have a farm resource then teching Agriculture first unlocks a research discount for AH with Hunting. With fish, obviously Fishing becomes a decent tech to start with. Otherwise researching AH straight away is typically sound to get those 6 yield tiles online quickly. If there are some unforrested hills it should even be possible to complete AH and mining by the time the worker is ready to build their first mine if they only have one food resource to improve. Also, Hunting unlocks Archery which is nearly always a solid early tech choice at Deity.

I agree that Hunting/Fishing aren't a great combo, though I find them surprisingly solid due to the early tech options they unlock and the fact that Fishing makes the generally inferior coastal starts slightly more promising.

 

[babar]

If you have a farm resource then teching Agriculture first unlocks a research discount for AH with Hunting. With fish, obviously Fishing becomes a decent tech to start with. Otherwise researching AH straight away is typically sound to get those 6 yield tiles online quickly. If there are some unforrested hills it should even be possible to complete AH and mining by the time the worker is ready to build their first mine if they only have one food resource to improve. Also, Hunting unlocks Archery which is nearly always a solid early tech choice at Deity.

I agree that Hunting/Fishing aren't a great combo, though I find them surprisingly solid due to the early tech options they unlock and the fact that Fishing makes the generally inferior coastal starts slightly more promising.

I guess I'm thinking of two specific, although not uncommon, situations:
First, floodplains starts, with no grain and one low yield livestock. In this case I (probably mistakenly) tech agriculture first, and slowly farm one flood plain while I tech AH.
The other case is when none of the hills can be mined before BW, again with a single low food pasture resource.
In both cases starting without mining, agriculture or the wheel slows you down a lot, it seems to me.
I only play Immortal, so the Archery option is less enticing.
Either hunting or fishing sure beats mysticism though...

 

[The Rook]

First, floodplains starts, with no grain and one low yield livestock. In this case I (probably mistakenly) tech agriculture first, and slowly farm one flood plain while I tech AH.

This is arguably very sound as you would get a nice discount for AH with Hunting. Also Fishing is a useful prerequisite for Pottery (cottages) which could be strong in a heavy FP capital.

The other case is when none of the hills can be mined before BW, again with a single low food pasture resource.

Yes. I think specifically the all-forrested 1 farm and 1 pasture resource can be very annoying with the Fishing/Hunting start. A bit like getting two animals without Hunting or Agriculture.

 

[NihilZero]

It's true that Pericles mitigates some of Greece's early problems as you won't need Mysticism for a while. Still, what a shame it is that Al is in hot water in most starts. The chances of getting a Phalanx rush out in time are slim indeed with hunting and fishing at the start. Granted you can go Archery and reduce the barb pressure that way, but to me that's almost like waving the white flag. You end up compounding your problems with two poor early techs (Hunting and Archery) and delay the techs you really need even further. What you need to be doing in the early game is working your specials, finding strategic resources, and getting your second city out fast. Greece is disadvantaged in all of these.

The best possible scenario for them is probably a seafood start, and when that's your best hope, you know you're in trouble. I really love Philosophical too, so I wish I could play Greece and not get my ass handed to me most of the time.

I experimented for a while with turning huts on to see if it would redeem Hunting from the refuse bin of starting techs, but huts on at Immortal is a killer. Each AI gets five to seven Noble level huts while the human is lucky to get one or two Immortal ones, even starting with a scout. The AIs start hitting Alphabet at 2400BC and Feudalism at 600BC, making things even harder than they really need to be.

 

[Spectrite]

You can tech Agriculture or AH while building your worker. OK, it's not as good as starting with, say, Agri, but Greece isn't completely screwed.

 

[babar]

You can tech Agriculture or AH while building your worker. OK, it's not as good as starting with, say, Agri, but Greece isn't completely screwed.

Not completely screwed, but in some situations it might be equivalent to waiting a couple of turns to settle.

 

[obsolete]

I don't believe Darious belongs on this list, for the reason it is assumed you will get lucky and have horses....

 

[Iranon]

Immortals require horse and are only better than War Chariots when everything goes their way (below 85% defensive modifiers - and fortified archers in a city already have 75%, before promotions or culture). However, unlike WCs they have a realistic chance of actually getting winning odds. This means they can ideally keep the momentum well enough to eat an entire civ or two with minor losses.

If that's not in the cards, Darius is an excellent peacemonger with two economy traits and a solid if unspectacular UB. I suppose relative appreciation of 'small chance of an easy and spectacular win' vs. 'larger chance to give me something to work with' matters. Very tough call for me because I prefer the latter, but I also like Darius' economy package a tiny bit better than that of the competitors.

 

[Spectrite]

I don't believe Darious belongs on this list, for the reason it is assumed you will get lucky and have horses....

Most people like Darius for his traits.

 

[r_rolo1]

Note that this does not require special investments - trading for machinery before someone gets guilds + horse + iron isn't always a tough move, so if you scout someone and see resource deficiency (or one that can be created easily enough with guerrilla II longbows etc), you can probably pull this off. Bonus points for using the PRO trait to completely lulwut own their incoming stack on DoW. Don't forget that trebs are immune to collateral, but might be picked to absorb it, such that they are useful in ctiies with lots of longbows/xbows to defend against said stack before moving out. Obviously your longbows which have more defense strength than field grenadiers will mop anything they have, especially if they are in fact denied knights.

On the bolded ...

Siege is only immune to collateral damage from siege. The Chinese UU it is not siege In fact, that is a good reason for building them in situations where you would not even think on putting x-bows in the field: the ability to deliver collateral damage to siege units.

 

[The Rook]

It's true that Pericles mitigates some of Greece's early problems as you won't need Mysticism for a while. Still, what a shame it is that Al is in hot water in most starts. The chances of getting a Phalanx rush out in time are slim indeed with hunting and fishing at the start.

True, but at higher levels it is probably best to get out of the rush mentality anyway, most starts don't call for one.

Granted you can go Archery and reduce the barb pressure that way, but to me that's almost like waving the white flag. You end up compounding your problems with two poor early techs (Hunting and Archery) and delay the techs you really need even further. What you need to be doing in the early game is working your specials, finding strategic resources, and getting your second city out fast. Greece is disadvantaged in all of these.

If you routinely avoid Archery at Deity then you are probably flying by the seat of your pants. Far more likely that a game will be lost early due to lack of caution or expansion without due care imo. Creative (Pericles) is a HUGE advantage for founding the second city and acquiring early resources, as all BFC squares will be influenced within 5 turns. The early 2nd border pops will likely acquire extra terrain a non-creative leader wouldn't too.

I experimented for a while with turning huts on to see if it would redeem Hunting from the refuse bin of starting techs, but huts on at Immortal is a killer. Each AI gets five to seven Noble level huts while the human is lucky to get one or two Immortal ones, even starting with a scout. The AIs start hitting Alphabet at 2400BC and Feudalism at 600BC, making things even harder than they really need to be.

These sound like pretty bizarre estimates to me. Alphabet at 2400 BC would be very early for Deity but absolutely freaky at Immortal, with or without huts . Anyway, poor land, bad neighbours and semi-isolation are likely to represent over 90% of the problems in a start. Leader traits/techs are comparatively minor issues, but even the most hostile starts should be winnable at Immortal.