Torture vs Drones

[MobBoss]

I know you read the first line. But if you feel your reply is an answer to my entire post, we have nothing to discus.

Then we don't.

 

[El_Machinae]

I would refuse to make the choice. There's simply no intristic reason I should pick one over the other. I'd leave it to God.

If someone put a gun to the head of two people and said "Name one so I can kill that one" I'd refuse to answer, and if that meant he killed both and me, so be it, I didn't do anything unethical and so I am in right standing before my God.

Oh, a direct choice? That's actually not so bad. It's once we get into ratios, like "is my citizen worth 1.12 of their citizens? (or more like 1:10)?" Or, "is my kid's X-Box worth more than some other kids' life?"

Then the Christian morality obviously kicks in. Most of us choose the Sins of Sodom.

 

[Chiteng]

Actually it is situational. In the Early 70's the push for lower birth rates started.
Now it is down to less than replication of the parents. That means in very base terms,
a US family doesnt have 'spares' to simply lose. If a US male dies in combat, quite often that means his lineage is over. It ended with him.

However, the US citizen is bombarded with images of irresponsible breeding in countries
like NVietnam and Pakistan, to say nothing of places like Haiti and Africa.
Where the hoi polloi have many many children.

On an emotional level, the US citizen condemns the over-breeding and also instinctively recognizes that he is being out-bred.

That mean....obviously, that he will NEVER agree that one US citizen is worth say one
(fill in the blank)
He knows that in a straight 1 to 1 exchange, we will vanish like an afterthought.

However, the other societies dont agree. They feel that the USA consumes far too
much resources per capita. They think that 'if only' everyone (that means THEM)
got a 'fair' share (whatever that means) their lives would be better.

The obvious fallacy is that the reasons places like Pakistan and Bangledesh suck,
is because there are too many people, simply make no impression upon those
citizens. They think it is their manifest destiny to spread out across the world
allowing them to effectively colonize certain areas. That is exactly what they are doing right now. Then they will get more resources.
It wont raise their standard of living, which has to do with their CULTURE and NOT resources, but they will never recognize that.

As for the US citizen, he thinks that nukes(correctly) make population density meaningless or worse increase the vulnerability of a potential enemy. Like China.
What is wrong with that is the perception(correctly in the case of Obama)
that the West will never USE nukes. They lack the needed moral fiber(fanaticism)
OR simple nihilism.

So the other cultures dont think the West is willing to stop them. Nothing that has
happened in the last 40 years gives them any reason to reconsider.

If your not willing to use force, then you just disarmed yourself. You are now at the mercy of people who are more than willing to use force. In fact, they are EAGER to use force. Just ask Salmen Rashdie

 

[hobbsyoyo]

US birth rates are above the replacement rate...thanks to immigrants. Check your facts.

And many of those 'spares' killed in combat...yeah they are also immigrants fighting to win citizenship. Maybe we should replace all our soldiers with crocs from the border moat to save more immigrants for baby-makin'.

 

[Chiteng]

US birth rates are above the replacement rate...thanks to immigrants. Check your facts.

And many of those 'spares' killed in combat...yeah they are also immigrants fighting to win citizenship. Maybe we should replace all our soldiers with crocs from the border moat to save more immigrants for baby-makin'.

I have no concern for immigrants fighting. If they are fighting and dying for the USA it does NOT impact my post in any way. Immigration is a policy. It can change.
It is NOT the same as the national birth rate.

Also, the USA very foolishly allows its enemies to enter the country, and breed.
That is very very foolish.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The 'national birth rate' is over the replacement rate, largely due to immigrants. Deal with it.

 

[Chiteng]

The 'national birth rate' is over the replacement rate, largely due to immigrants. Deal with it.

It doesnt matter. You are being delibretly obtuse. It is not an endearing feature.

You statement implies that Citizen 'A' feels that the illegals serving are worth as much
as his own son or daughter. You know he doesnt. We ALL know he doesnt.

Who exactly are you attempting to mislead? You fail, miserably.

A citizen that has invested two hundred fifty thousand in his offspring, has far more at stake, than one who has invested fifteen thousand.

That is the way the USA works. We may not like it, but we all know it.

I have no intention of quibbling over 'your' definition of the national birth rate.
It is ancillary.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

No, I'm not being obtuse.

I am correcting your false statements along the lines that the US population is destined to fall because of aboritions or cultural attitudes toward overbreeding or birth control or whatever. It's all nonsense, our population is growing, thanks to immigrants, both from their new arrivals and by virtue of the fact that they have a lot of American babies when they get here.

<Weren't you the GREEN guy who thinks that the globabl population is too large anyways?>

Letting enemies into the country? lolwut

They want to be Americans and many of them have and will fight in our army for you and me. But whatever, their enemies that should be thrown to the crocs in the border moat. =)

 

[Borachio]

Spoiler :

Actually it is situational. In the Early 70's the push for lower birth rates started.
Now it is down to less than replication of the parents. That means in very base terms,
a US family doesnt have 'spares' to simply lose. If a US male dies in combat, quite often that means his lineage is over. It ended with him.

However, the US citizen is bombarded with images of irresponsible breeding in countries
like NVietnam and Pakistan, to say nothing of places like Haiti and Africa.
Where the hoi polloi have many many children.

On an emotional level, the US citizen condemns the over-breeding and also instinctively recognizes that he is being out-bred.

That mean....obviously, that he will NEVER agree that one US citizen is worth say one
(fill in the blank)
He knows that in a straight 1 to 1 exchange, we will vanish like an afterthought.

However, the other societies dont agree. They feel that the USA consumes far too
much resources per capita. They think that 'if only' everyone (that means THEM)
got a 'fair' share (whatever that means) their lives would be better.

The obvious fallacy is that the reasons places like Pakistan and Bangledesh suck,
is because there are too many people, simply make no impression upon those
citizens. They think it is their manifest destiny to spread out across the world
allowing them to effectively colonize certain areas. That is exactly what they are doing right now. Then they will get more resources.
It wont raise their standard of living, which has to do with their CULTURE and NOT resources, but they will never recognize that.

As for the US citizen, he thinks that nukes(correctly) make population density meaningless or worse increase the vulnerability of a potential enemy. Like China.
What is wrong with that is the perception(correctly in the case of Obama)
that the West will never USE nukes. They lack the needed moral fiber(fanaticism)
OR simple nihilism.

So the other cultures dont think the West is willing to stop them. Nothing that has
happened in the last 40 years gives them any reason to reconsider.

If your not willing to use force, then you just disarmed yourself. You are now at the mercy of people who are more than willing to use force. In fact, they are EAGER to use force. Just ask Salmen Rashdie

This raises some interesting points about birth rates.

It's a complicated matter. Here are some of the factors that are important:

Government population policy, such as pronatalist or antinatalist policies (for instance, a tax on childlessness)
Availability of family planning services, such as birth control and sex education
Availability and safety of abortion and the safety of childbirth
Infant mortality rate: A family may have more children if a country's infant mortality rate is high, since it is likely some of those children will die.
Existing age-sex structure
Typical age of marriage
Social and religious beliefs, especially in relation to contraception and abortion
Industrialization: In a preindustrial agrarian economy, unskilled (or semiskilled) manual labor was needed for production; children can be viewed as an economic resource in developing countries, since they can earn money. As people require more training, parents tend to have fewer children and invest more resources in each child; the higher the level of technology, the lower the birth rate (the demographic-economic paradox).
Economic prosperity or economic difficulty: In difficult economic times, couples delay (or decrease) childbearing.
Poverty levels
Urbanization
Pension availability
Conflict
Illiteracy and unemployment

But in general, there would seem to be an inverse relationship between birth rate and affluence.

So perhaps the best way of eliminating this apparent discrepancy between the value of an American life and that of people from underdeveloped countries would be to aid their economic development. Possibly in a benign rather than an exploitative fashion.

Flippantly, I might observe that Italian and Japanese rates are significantly lower than America's. In fact there are 69 countries with a lower birth rate than the USA.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Well there you have it. Just as long as we continue with this warmongering, we must protect our precious bodily fluids in the form of our progeny sent to die in foreign countries. Colonel Jack T Ripper would have it no other way.

At least Chiteng is willing to put into words the basic premises which drive this silly notion that American life is superior to all others. This results in the decisions that generate absurdly high "collateral damage" in modern "asymmetrical" warfare against a foe that really has no way of inflicting similar massive casualties. This value judgement is even true for "illegals" who somehow manage to find their way into the military despite being banned from doing so. It is because people who make near-poverty-level wages have "invested" $250K in their offspring who do the vast majority of the fighting. The ones who had difficulty getting through high school are usually those who become the cannon fodder of the rich and powerful, while their own sons typically go to college and avoid actual fighting whenever possible.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

For god's sake, is anyone actually saying that American lives are more valuable than others?

If that's a take on what I've said in this thread, then I'm actually offended.

 

[Chiteng]

No, I'm not being obtuse.

I am correcting your false statements along the lines that the US population is destined to fall because of aboritions or cultural attitudes toward overbreeding or birth control or whatever. It's all nonsense, our population is growing, thanks to immigrants, both from their new arrivals and by virtue of the fact that they have a lot of American babies when they get here.

<Weren't you the GREEN guy who thinks that the globabl population is too large anyways?>

Letting enemies into the country? lolwut

They want to be Americans and many of them have and will fight in our army for you and me. But whatever, their enemies that should be thrown to the crocs in the border moat. =)

No, my statements are quite valid. Yours are valid only under your definitions.
I have no desire to accept your definitions.

Yes it is true that certain subsets of immigrants, insist on overbreeding.
That is their intent. that is why they came here. I did address than in my original post.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

No, my statements are quite valid. Yours are valid only under your definitions.
I have no desire to accept your definitions.

Yes it is true that certain subsets of immigrants, insist on overbreeding.
That is their intent. that is why they came here. I did address than in my original post.

Immigrant babies are Americans per the constitution. Not all immigrants are illegal and even the ones that are still have American babies. The population of the United States is growing any way you care to measure it unless we are just going to pretend all those American babies don't exist.

Deal with it. =)

 

[Chiteng]

Well there you have it. Just as long as we continue with this warmongering, we must protect our precious bodily fluids in the form of our progeny sent to die in foreign countries. Colonel Jack T Ripper would have it no other way.

At least Chiteng is willing to put into words the basic premises which drive this silly notion that American life is superior to all others. This results in the decisions that generate absurdly high "collateral damage" in modern "asymmetrical" warfare against a foe that really has no way of inflicting similar massive casualties. This value judgement is even true for "illegals" who somehow manage to find their way into the military despite being banned from doing so. It is because people who make near-poverty-level wages have "invested" $250K in their offspring who do the vast majority of the fighting. The ones who had difficulty getting through high school are usually those who become the cannon fodder of the rich, while their own sons typically go to college and avoid actual fighting whenever possible.

If you had served in 65, these observed facts, would be ingrained upon your soul.
That is the reality. There are fools who deny the reality, and let us hope it gives them comfort. I saw far far too many ticket punchers to ever take the egalitarian society serious. We exist upon the sufferance of TPTB.

No Form, it is not my way. I am not a member of TPTB. I am grateful that I am not.

 

[Formaldehyde]

For god's sake, is anyone actually saying that American lives are more valuable than others?

If that's a take on what I've said in this thread, then I'm actually offended.

It is implicit in the decisions that result in such massive "collateral damage" in foreign countries, although it is rarely stated for obvious reasons.

But it hasn't been you who said it. You made it clear long ago that you don't think American life is the reason why you would give preferential treatment to some over others. I think it is quite rational to try to defend the lives of your friends and family when directly threatened. I would do the same thing, and I imagine nearly everybody would respond that way. What isn't so rational to me is killing hundreds of innocent people in hopes that doing so will somehow minutely increase their chances of living while they were engaging in warmongering in foreign countries. That is especially true if they were doing so by choice.

Of course, there is another element to it as well. Those who make these decisions fully understand that the popularity of their warmongering will inevitably decrease as American casualties mount. That much of the American public really doesn't care how many innocent civilians were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan to keep the American body count lower. That they would actually prefer not to know how many innocent people have died, which is why such statistics are not kept by the US military at least officially.

 

[Chiteng]

Immigrant babies are Americans per the constitution. Not all immigrants are illegal and even the ones that are still have American babies. The population of the United States is growing any way you care to measure it unless we are just going to pretend all those American babies don't exist.

Deal with it. =)

I am =)

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I am =)

Good deal.

Now if you will step this way, I have a fine selection of Egyptian and Australian crocodiles you might be interested in. Now, the Australian crocs are bigger, but the Egyptian ones have the advantage of already being accustomed to eating dark meat.

It is implicit in the decisions that result in such massive "collateral damage" in foreign countries, although it is rarely stated for obvious reasons.

But it hasn't been you who said it. You made it clear long ago that you don't think American life is the reason why you would give preferential treatment to some over others.

Ok cool.

 

[Chiteng]

It is implicit in the decisions that result in such massive "collateral damage" in foreign countries, although it is rarely stated for obvious reasons.

But it hasn't been you who said it. You made it clear long ago that you don't think American life is the reason why you would give preferential treatment to some over others. I think it is quite rational to try to defend the lives of your friends and family when directly threatened. I would do the same thing, and I imagine nearly everybody would respond that way. What isn't so rational to me is killing hundreds of innocent people in hopes that doing so will somehow increase their chances of living while they were engaging in warmongering in foreign countries. That is especially true if they were doing so by choice.

Of course, there is another element to it as well. Those who make these decisions fully understand that the popularity of their warmongering will inevitably decrease as American casualties mount. That much of the American public really doesn't care how many innocent civilians were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. That they would actually prefer not to know, which is why such statistics are not kept by the US military at least officially.

Actually the observed reason is obvious. The head of state, at the time of 9/11
was a complete idiot, with nothing but a set of bias and desires.
Easily manipulated by darker men seeking other ends.

That translates into a complete lack of realistic grand strategy. It continues today.
NO ONE, in the halls of the decision makers has addressed a realistic policy that would effect success in prosecuting the war. To do that would make certain people 'unhappy'
because their particular slice of the pie would be threatened or eliminated.
Everyone remembers what happened to JFK.

People who did try to voice a realistic grand strategy were retired or phased out.
Those that refused to shut up were marginalized.

So we have pie in the sky wishful thinking running our policies, hoping to change the hearts and minds of our enemies. Its bunk. It just makes us look like a bunch of . It gets good men killed.

 

[Formaldehyde]

If you had served in 65, these observed facts, would be ingrained upon your soul.

Are you a Vietnam vet? If so, a lot of your opinions suddenly make a lot more sense.

I think it is a quite common myth believed by many who served in Vietnam that many of the lives of their friends were lost due to the US not willing to deal with that war in the same brutal and callous manner that we fought the Japanese in WWII.

What they fail to realize is that by doing so would have been war crimes after the signing of the Geneva Convention that was specifically implemented after WWII for that very reason. That William Calley was a war criminal who should have spent most of the rest of his life in prison, instead of being placed under house arrest and pardoned a few months later. That those in Vietnam who committed many similar atrocities should have also been prosecuted for their crimes against humanity instead of being conveniently forgotten.

The tragic mistake of Vietnam was that we were on the side that actually opposed freedom and liberty for the people of that region. That the region has prospered since the brutal dictators we supported were finally removed from power.

 

[Chiteng]

Are you a Vietnam vet? If so, a lot of your opinions suddenly make a lot more sense.

I think it is a quite common myth believed by many who served in Vietnam that many of the lives of their friends were lost due to the US not willing to deal with that war in the same brutal and callous manner that we fought the Japanese in WWII.

What they fail to realize is that by doing so would have been war crimes after the signing of the Geneva Convention that was specifically implemented after WWII for that very reason. That William Calley was a war criminal who should have spent most of the rest of his life in prison, instead of being placed under house arrest and pardoned a few months later. That those in Vietnam who committed many similar atrocities should have also been prosecuted for their crimes against humanity instead of being conveniently forgotten.

The tragic mistake of Vietnam was that we were on the side that actually opposed freedom and liberty for the people of that region. That the region has prospered since the brutal dictators we supported were finally removed from power.

The purpose of war, is to win.
If you dont intend to win, then you are simply a warmonger.
Other people picking up the blood tab, for your indulgence.

There have been other wars since WW2, all of them fought the wrong way.
Including the military parade that took Baghdad.
When you start lining up the NVietnamese that committed warcrimes, you can talk to me about ours. I can tell you what the NVets said to us.
'We are not at war. There is no declaration. YOU are nothing but a mercenary.'

No war. No war crimes.

None of which impacts the reality of the USA being run by men who do NOT value human life the way 'I' might, or 'you' might.