[TOT] &ToTPP with Lua : EpicWWiiEurope

Dadais

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Bad news, well, at least for me : my computer is falling appart. I'll try to restaure it to factory state, thus install back most of what I had on it.
I'll store around my current project so I could get them bck on track after having back a computer working normally.

Either this one can be saved, either problems are deeper with electrical causes, then a new computer would be needed.

Anyway, if another feel like he can bring this project further, i'd be honoured. Work left shall be some Lua code, and buildings + units affectations.
Some code from the casual version could be adapted to it (the "regionnal change of owner" for instance) to ease some part of the job left.

If none have the time or will to get into this mess, I'll be happy to get back to it once I'll have a stable working machine again.

Here's the actual state of it then
 

Dadais

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That project shall see a revival, allowed by Prof Garfield, fueled by inspirations born from JPetrovski's OTR and TNO ToTPP18 possibilities, thus seeing some changes to it.
The alone map are now four, all depicting this same Europe zone.

Proposing there a little teaser, this won't go fast for the release, not beeing on top of the pile at the moment.

Spoiler Main Map :
exemple2.png

First Map is the usual main one. Most units shall fight there as usual for dominance.
It will see alternances of snow and cool weather like in some other project considering alea and regions specificities.

Spoiler UnderSea Map :
exemple3.png

Second Map see three uses :
-It shall have submarines teleported in the ocean part, which will act as trap points for ennemies ships and convoys (more or less far with more or less chances to strike and get found/stricked)
-It shall also serve to figure easily both for player and lua code (should be lighter than previous system) regions on climate or gameplay purpose.
-It shall be used rather than the previous "scenario zone" to teleport in and back units to avoid ZoC bug.

Spoiler StrategicMap :
exemple4.png

Third Map would be a strategic one.
No unit there, it shall be used to display and store region "owners" (German , Allied, Soviet, Neutral, Independent, OccupiedByGerman, OccupiedByAllied, etc) and various local status using irrigation and mine slot (resistances per exemple)
It should also be used to store RailRoads in ennemies territories at ones turn, probably also sometimes roads in eastern regions (mud season isn't it ?) !
After all, it doesn't make sens to use ennemies railroads to travel in its land does it ?

Spoiler Aerial Map :
exemple5.png

Fourth Map is the Air map. Indeed, it doesn't make sens to have planes' path bloqued by land units does it ? I love the concept of OTR which inpired A LOT the direction taken here, while on a really smaller scale.
In this fourth map, at each player's turn, the previous player planes units shall be teleported in main land, the target units left deleted and the airbases erased.
Then, the player's plane units shall be teleported in air map, target units of its ennemy shall be created (Visible land units and strategic industries or cities units), and airbases shall be created where these planes should be able to land on main map.
Planes may bomb and be taken down by reactions from ennemies AA units on ground.

.

ToTPP18 will be also taken advantage of, allowing for more units and developping further the combat system.

Here are first ideas on these units, to be worked on a little more next to other "usual" units.
exemple.png

Industries on the left are set on ground, and can be destroyed by land units. On the right are targets for planes.
Industries may then be destroyed both from ground or air.

All this is secondary to present projects, thus won't be released tomorrow throught
 
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Dadais

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Took time learning about ww2, building plan with the room avaible :

exemple.png

Little additions to armors and infantries regiments.
I wished to portray too infantry divisions on front with different weight than order/occupation forces in far from fight cities, thus proposing (in end of file) infantry divisions to assemble.
Mounted infantries got expanded considering their important roles.
Found interesting on ai purpose the neutral frontier too next to them.

Ships lost the capital ships to an early submarine, giving weight to german submarine production. Carriers shall have a special anti-submarine role

Strategic units and targets are added, with obvious roles.

Transports may be used as a kind of tool : infantries (maybe artilleries too ?) may be turned into trucks for a cost, allowing it to travel faster but be vulnerable until transforming back.

Many planes got added, planning to deepen their roles between ground support light ones, strategic bombing ones and fighters (+ polyvalences).
 

JPetroski

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This is taking me back to '99-'01 or so with the influx of new scenarios. What a great time to be alive and civing :)
 

Dadais

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This is taking me back to '99-'01 or so with the influx of new scenarios. What a great time to be alive and civing
Just if some other discover this thread.

This scenario aim is to propose updated vibes to the initial ww2 scenarii from microprose, proposing playthroughs with different civilisations starting a little earlier in 1939.
While some history context shall be brought and have influence in this game (planned with some alea),

it shall not be a master clockwork figuring an excellent and precise historical axis playthrough like The Hinge Of Fate seems to be.
 

JPetroski

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You'll find you'll probably get more of the regular's attention in the Scenario League forum, which is weird perhaps when you think that this is Scenario Creation, but it's not so bad for folks to have two places to find things!

I think that your idea of a more open-ended European campaign would be good fun indeed, especially given other civs would be playable. It will be a nice addition to HoF and Fortress Europe by McMonkey.
 

Dadais

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Took time learning about ww2, building plan with the room avaible :

View attachment 622779
The more I read, the more I need ...

Some stuffs presented there are wrong and shall be altered or replaced.
Rather than many small regiments and seven big infantry divisions, I'd rather have many big infantry divisions and few small order(&occupation) forces.

These infantry and control force shall be given seen by player small aa and for divisions small artillery, thus freeing slots.

On missing stuff, we shall see in the neutral frontier style a molotov ribbentrop frontier.
 
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You'll find you'll probably get more of the regular's attention in the Scenario League forum, which is weird perhaps when you think that this is Scenario Creation, but it's not so bad for folks to have two places to find things!

I think that your idea of a more open-ended European campaign would be good fun indeed, especially given other civs would be playable. It will be a nice addition to HoF and Fortress Europe by McMonkey.

I've been following this thread with some interest as it seems Dadais wants to implement some possibly revolutionary ideas, i.e. the strategic map here and weather map in his Emperor is Dead thread. Though without having the games in hand it remains a little difficult to envision how these new features will all fit together.

Unless I misunderstood, I'm a little more hesitant on the more open ended style that he seems to want to create for EpicWWIIEurope, though I will admit I'm more of a traditionalist when it comes to historical based scenarios, i.e. I like them to be as true as possible to their historical paths (no Soviets joining the Nazis in an anti-Allied alliance in a WWII scenario). But that just my personal preference. I know that other players like a more alternative reality slant on some games.
 

Dadais

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I've been following this thread with some interest as it seems Dadais wants to implement some possibly revolutionary ideas, i.e. the strategic map here and weather map in his Emperor is Dead thread. Though without having the games in hand it remains a little difficult to envision how these new features will all fit together.

Unless I misunderstood, I'm a little more hesitant on the more open ended style that he seems to want to create for EpicWWIIEurope, though I will admit I'm more of a traditionalist when it comes to historical based scenarios, i.e. I like them to be as true as possible to their historical paths (no Soviets joining the Nazis in an anti-Allied alliance in a WWII scenario). But that just my personal preference. I know that other players like a more alternative reality slant on some games.
That's quite nice ! Please notice I'll figure the weather alteration here too (while 50 terrain files would be too much, howether).

Truth, the features I'm envisionning are not that much, and I then feel ashamed seeing it described as revolutionnary in contrast with the Totpp creation, Napoleon, OtR or HoF scenarii !
The strategic map as an exemple is only after all planned to be used as a data storage players may have sight in.
The alea weather alteration is also greatly reducing land diversity on its side, which gives many maps a magical feeling.
The fight alteration (eg, aerial features, planned encirclement bonus, etc) are only possibilities given by TNO...

While I like and am in owe facing your, Jpetroski's and others scenarii, I have to admit both truth :
-I have a strong feeling for the wwii scenarii we played while my brothers and I were kids.
-As the TES proves it if doubts subsisted, I kinda suck when it comes to transcribe (his)story in a civ scenario, dispite all the learnings provided by your wonderful exemples.

What I guess and feel is, after all, if (great) creators like you or John are willing to use a tiny work or inspiration from the time I did put in this game to push it further, then that's great. So it is if anyone manage to get some fun from it.
 
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JPetroski

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I for one would welcome a new "sandbox" WW2 scenario given we haven't had one since, pretty much this whole game started :)
 
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Hi Dadais,

For starters there's absolutely no reason to feel ashamed. Whether you are implementing revolutionary new ideas or borrowing concepts from other designers in the end what makes a scenario interesting is how you've tied all the pieces together.

I don't believe Napoleon was particularly revolutionary other than it might have been the 3 or 4th scenario to use lua. To be honest most of the features were simply variants that John, Prof Garfield and Grisnach had already implemented in Caesar and OTR, which they graciously allowed us to reuse. I think what may have made it successful, besides Knighttime very solid diplomatic framework, was that the scenario was solidly based in a historical narrative which the players could easily identify with.

I can't speak for other designers experience, but I was an avid reader of history from a very young age and as a teenager was introduced by a friend to the whole wargaming world. I believe that has helped me tremendously when working on my own projects to base my scenario on a firm historical background (and probably why I have a penchant for historical games over the more esoteric kind).

Ultimately, the important part in scenario design is first and foremost to enjoy and have fun doing it. When you put in the effort, be it for scenario designs, or any other aspects in life, people will generally always recognize and appreciate your work as a consequence.
 

Dadais

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Argh ... what to do ?

exemple.png


The big version, missing informations yet the most beautiful ?
The medium one, providing informations yet not loosing too much quality yet with different sizes?
The small one, with all information, synchronous but loosing quality ?
 

JPetroski

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Really depends on what you're going for with the unit but the smalls are going to look out of place compared to everything else in the game. The middle ones look strange and I'd suggest an icon that conveys what you want (like an anchor is often depicted for marines, a medal for a super unit, etc.)
 

Dadais

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Really depends on what you're going for with the unit but the smalls are going to look out of place compared to everything else in the game. The middle ones look strange and I'd suggest an icon that conveys what you want (like an anchor is often depicted for marines, a medal for a super unit, etc.)
I see ! Something like in @CurtSibling 's overlord ?

exemple.png
 

JPetroski

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Yep - one can easily tell what the units are for, and you keep the same scale.
 

Dadais

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(no Soviets joining the Nazis in an anti-Allied alliance in a WWII scenario)
Ha ha that always pissed us off when it occured in our neutral (swedish - new persian) play.

Howether :
What if negociations from autumn 1940 to may 1941 met less opposition, avoiding few crisis worsening relations, then allowing to check the anti-communist political faction ?
What if they joined in a common anti-jewish-capital propanda to concentrate their forces, Germany in its war, Urss in its modernization providing ressources.

In short terms, what if germany allowed urss to join the axe in 1940 ?

.

This scenario won't be totally opened too, having to take in consideration neutral countries and strategic geopolitical situations to figure diplomatic interactions.
Yet controlled uchronia shall earn some room in it.
 
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Ha ha that always pissed us off when it occured in our neutral (swedish - new persian) play.

Howether :
What if negociations from autumn 1940 to may 1941 met less opposition, avoiding few crisis worsening relations, then allowing to check the anti-communist political faction ?
What if they joined in a common anti-jewish-capital propanda to concentrate their forces, Germany in its war, Urss in its modernization providing ressources.

In short terms, what if germany allowed urss to join the axe in 1940 ?

The likelyhood that Germany and the Soviet Union would have aligned were highly unlikely as they fundamentaly saw each other as deep political rivals. The Nazi-Soviet Pact of 1939 was nothing more than an entente of convenience, i.e. Hitler needed a secure border in the East to wage his war against the Allies in the West and Stalin wanted to buy time to reconstitute the Russian army which had become significantly disorganized , in no small part due to his purges of the late 30'.

Notwistanding these realities, assuming you wanted to allow alternate possibilites, I fear you would run into one big issue by permitting such an alliance to occur, i.e. simply put it would completely break play balance. In other words, an Axis alliance that combined Germany and the Soviet Union, regardless of whether Italy joined the faction or not, would simply be unstoppable.

Remember that it took the combined might of the Commonwealth, the United States and Russia the better part of 3 years to defeat Germany. For most of the war 70% of the German army fought and was ultimately destroyed on the Russian front. As such, I fear to play or win as the Allies would be near impossible and to play as the Axis far too easy.

Of course, its not for me to stop you if as the designer you want to create a scenario that explores alternate realities. I typically always say that designers should create and design whatever scenario they feel passionate about. But given the historical framework you are working in, i.e. Europe in the late 30' and early 40', I just thought it was worth pointing out a potentially significant play balance issue.

Yet controlled uchronia shall earn some room in it.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
 
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Dadais

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The likelyhood that Germany and the Soviet Union would have aligned were highly unlikely as they fundamentaly saw each other as deep political rivals.
I agree such an alliance couldn't have survived few years, time for urss to feel itself strong enough.

Yet, germans willing to take a breath on the eastern front to confront both western skies, seas and Africa were not so few in numbers ?
So was the political aversion and resentment (from finland and baltic soviet advances) too indeed and the plans detailed in Main Kampf.

On the other side, what did Germany earned with Bulgaria and Italy in the Balkans ?
While the Bosphore, a weakened Turkey controlled strategic point was URSS obsession, how was it important to the Reich ?
Turkey situation is important too, beeing an important door to Irak and Iran oil, a vital strategic point to urss and an effective buffer for allied while it holds revendications towards them.

Truth is, I'm still learning and haven't set in mind the borders the ai and humans shall play between. I thought such an alliance would be hardly impossible to happen (yet be possible), maybe will it simply be impossible. I have no certainty for now.
 

Dadais

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Terrains in main map got chosen and defined, seeing major changes from previous version :
Arid lands, deserts and arid hills are sharing a same terrain type.
Appart from arid lands, mudlands (, sea indeed) and cities, terrain types shall have their snowed counterpart.

Graphics got set for a twelve months cycle.
Spoiler Main May Terrain :
exemple3.png

The stains are used to display a color alteration on the minimap, and are hidden by layers on usual map.
"Battlefield" tile improvement (pollution) shall remain the same, curtsibling's wonderfull one from overlord is added for those who would prefer it.

redrawing little by little the european map to adapt to its new tiles dispositions and values.

alteration exemple in Britain :
Spoiler before :
exemple2.png

Spoiler after :


exemple.png
 

Dadais

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exemple.png

Terrain type choice done, the whole map got altered to match the new terrain types.
While doing this, benefitting from learnings, brought few alterations :

Appart from minor fixes, changed the shape of oural, added few cities to soviets, finland to gives a better sight of sovieto-finlandese wars, gave a city to Iran to give it a living, set Irak neutral rather than british, gave back in Lithuania Memel to German and Vilno to Polish.
 
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