TR03 - Losers self-teach DemiGod
- Thread starter Tubby Rower
- Start date
Thanks for the good wishes, gents.
Query: how did you know?
This is a good community and all of you are an important reason for it.
Now on to the game.
Any time we go a-warring we need to bring our friends, 'cause if we don't they will become our enemies.
But, how do we manage war weariness if we are a republic? you say. Never lose a battle, never lose a city, never leave troops in enemy territory.
If you can accomplish those three things you can make war until the cows come home for milking. The first two require concentration, so no chasing strays or deviating from the objective. Don't split your attacking forces, even for what looks like an easy kill or conquest. The third requirement can be met with the "combat settler and worker" team.
Note on research: d-man's point is a good one but it needs a caveat: Self-research does work, but only if you follow Bede's Three Principles of Technology Acquisition, which apply to purchasing as well:
1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad plan. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.
The only exception I would make is when #2 is of such overwhelming importance the nation would not survive without it.
Query: how did you know?
This is a good community and all of you are an important reason for it.
Now on to the game.
Any time we go a-warring we need to bring our friends, 'cause if we don't they will become our enemies.
But, how do we manage war weariness if we are a republic? you say. Never lose a battle, never lose a city, never leave troops in enemy territory.
If you can accomplish those three things you can make war until the cows come home for milking. The first two require concentration, so no chasing strays or deviating from the objective. Don't split your attacking forces, even for what looks like an easy kill or conquest. The third requirement can be met with the "combat settler and worker" team.
Note on research: d-man's point is a good one but it needs a caveat: Self-research does work, but only if you follow Bede's Three Principles of Technology Acquisition, which apply to purchasing as well:
1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad plan. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.
The only exception I would make is when #2 is of such overwhelming importance the nation would not survive without it.
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
Roster:
Tubby Rower
dmanakho - still scratching his head over no horses
Minute Man - Delayed due to SGOTM6
Bede - turning grey waiting and officially older now
Mach
Admiral Kutzov
eldar - just played
Tubby Rower
dmanakho - still scratching his head over no horses
Minute Man - Delayed due to SGOTM6
Bede - turning grey waiting and officially older now
Mach
Admiral Kutzov
eldar - just played
Bede said:
This is very important point... And I am sure it will apply in our game and don't anybody dare to miss it
I am actually refering to those remote town Spain gave us in exchange for peace. In case of war with any of our eastern neigbors we won't likely to be able to defend those cities. In case if city is in danger to fall - gift it ASAP.
Nothing hits WW worse in republic than lost cities.
Be wise who you donate it to.. Think strategic there.
As for Military Alliances.
Here is my theory and how i use them.
1. When I use MA
a) I use MA when I am prepared for the war and I am the one who actually starting it (or sometimes planning to start but AI beats me to it)
b) when i wage a phony war and just need to keep AIs busy for one or the other reason (like slowing down tech pace)
b) when i wage a phony war and just need to keep AIs busy for one or the other reason (like slowing down tech pace)
2. when i don't use MA.
a) when i was sneaked attacked and totally not ready for the war. I'd rather risk and bleed next 3to5 turns until attacker agrees to make peace (and they always do that's just a mechanic of this game). In this situation I have short war and even if I lose something it's usually not terribly bad. But if you make and MA when you are not ready to wage war you will have your hands tied down for another 20 turns.
b) can't think about anything else at the moment
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
concur
ditto
very strongly concur.
I can't remember the last time I used an MA as a republic.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
Now that I've sitting here thinking, vague recollection of using MA when I knew my friends would make peace long before the 20 turns.
Feeling guilty. Think we need to go get dman some knights and cavs to play with.
This is beating a dead horse with bede up, but, we need a strategic dot map to expedite discussion.
OT-did you know that the king units turn into inquistors on Bede's b-day? Firaxis coded it as the temple easter egg.
Feeling guilty. Think we need to go get dman some knights and cavs to play with.
This is beating a dead horse with bede up, but, we need a strategic dot map to expedite discussion.
OT-did you know that the king units turn into inquistors on Bede's b-day? Firaxis coded it as the temple easter egg.
eldar
ChiefTank
The whole MA spiel hits home - thanks for correcting my mistake. I actually got it right in COTM10, with my MA denying both opponents crucial resources (China Horses/Iron, Japan Ivory).
I did get caught out by something I wasn't aware of.
I was still in my alliance with Japan when I finished the last Chinese city. I guess the alliance must have been part of the peace treaty I signed when I swapped the alliance around - for the most part, I'd been going for a GA military build-up, preparing for an invasion of China. Anyway, the Alliance-with-Peace bit is what's important.
The Chinese war was over 20 turns, but as Japan didn't come back to re-negotiate peace, I forgot about cancelling the alliance as well - I couldn't care less if those two were still fighting by that point.
Right, so I capture the last Chinese city. So the alliance with Japan is broken - and as it was part of the peace deal, so was the peace treaty, and I'm at war with Japan - WITH NO WARNING, NOTIFICATION, NOTHING. If I hadn't checked F4 before deciding what to do next, I'd have been caught with my pants down as my supposed "allies" killed my units, wiped out my cities, and really hammered my WW up in next to no time.
I did get caught out by something I wasn't aware of.
I was still in my alliance with Japan when I finished the last Chinese city. I guess the alliance must have been part of the peace treaty I signed when I swapped the alliance around - for the most part, I'd been going for a GA military build-up, preparing for an invasion of China. Anyway, the Alliance-with-Peace bit is what's important.
The Chinese war was over 20 turns, but as Japan didn't come back to re-negotiate peace, I forgot about cancelling the alliance as well - I couldn't care less if those two were still fighting by that point.
Right, so I capture the last Chinese city. So the alliance with Japan is broken - and as it was part of the peace deal, so was the peace treaty, and I'm at war with Japan - WITH NO WARNING, NOTIFICATION, NOTHING. If I hadn't checked F4 before deciding what to do next, I'd have been caught with my pants down as my supposed "allies" killed my units, wiped out my cities, and really hammered my WW up in next to no time.
Minute Man
Prince
OK, I've finished wrestling with the monster that is SGOTM6, so I should be able to get this played tomorrow. Sorry about the delay.
ÆnigmÆffect
Warlord
[lurker's comment]
Cool game. Wasn't really planning on reading this, but then saw TR's started a demi-god game, with such a strong cast... And the phenominal starting location.
Keep on trucking! (and I'm learning a but about the MA and such, too).
Cool game. Wasn't really planning on reading this, but then saw TR's started a demi-god game, with such a strong cast... And the phenominal starting location.
Keep on trucking! (and I'm learning a but about the MA and such, too).
Minute Man
Prince
OK, I finally got my turns played. They didn't go as well as I had hoped, but still quite a bit better than they could have. What do I mean by that? Read on (better get comfortable 
) and find out...
Pre-flight
I take a look at the happiness situation and notice that if we turn down luxuries to 10%, we'd save 26 gpt, and the only city that would be unhappy is Hattusas (which is due to build a marketplace in three turns). I'm tempted to give Hattusas a scientist, but since our gems deal is about to expire, I'll keep luxuries where they are for another turn.
I think about building a settler in Hattusha, but it would be a Spanish settler. Spain isn't a culture monster now, but they are religious, and it looks like their culture is starting to increase, so let's not risk it. Besides, with a granary and flood plain wheat, it'll grow back the lost pop in no time. So keep starving.
Do a little MM. Tarsus, in particular, is making 20+ spt, which we don't really need, so let other towns borrow a couple of its improved squares.
Also...
, dman. 
Change that to a library - we have several fast-growing core cities that we can shave workers off of once they finish building libraries and markets.
1 - 530 BC
Valencia spear->temple. Tarsus settler->3MC.
Tarsus is still at 20 spt, and I'm tempted to build archers to avoid wasting shields, but with 42 gpt in unit support, I think we'd better go for quality over quantity.
As expected, our gems deal expires. I find that Cathy is willing to renew it for dyes + 10 gpt. Since that lets us turn the lux slider down a notch, I think it's worth it, so I go ahead and make the deal. And Hattusas gets a scientist for the next couple of turns.
What's this scout doing? We have essentially zero unexplored territory on our continent, so I'm not willing to keep paying this guy 2 gpt. Disband him.
2 - 510 BC
Osman doesn't want to renew our MA vs. Babylon. Fine by me.
A Bab bowman suicides on our stack of 3MCs. One less defender to kill...
Battle of Nineveh commences.
3MC does 1 hp damage to vet spear before retreating. Reg spear revealed.
3MC redlines reg spear but dies. 3HP vet spear revealed.
3MC kills spear, taking 1 damage. That's more like it.
3MC gets redlined but polishes off the last spear.
So Nineveh is ours with only one 3MC lost. Move all the wounded into the city to heal; start the others toward Babylon.
Our 3MC coming up from the south reaches the hill next to Babylon, and sees a couple of Otto spears and an archer in the vicinity. I'd much rather raze Babylon than let Osman have it, but I might have to hurry.
Actually, now that I think about it, after Babylon falls, Hammi will be down to two size 1 cities, so he won't last long. So it's probably worth keeping rather than razing. Next turn I'll have 4 3MCs in attack position, ready to take the city if it looks like it's about to fall to Osman.
Incidentally, the iron has been pillaged, probably by the Otto archer standing on it. Which is probably just as well, but we'll have to reconnect it.
I'm forced to turn down research a couple of notches to avoid going broke. Invention still due in 6.
3 - 490 BC
Hattusas market->worker. Tarsus 3MC->3MC. Ugarit market->library.
4 - 470 BC
Hattusas worker->library. Harran market->library.
All the Ottoman troops, having pillaged just about everything at Babylon, just moved away from the city. Looks like we'll get to take it in peace. Need a few more 3MCs, though, so it'll be a couple of turns.
5 - 450 BC
Tarsus 3MC->3MC. Tyrana Library->barracks. Ankuwa library->market.
Netherlands just joined the dogpile vs. Babylon (via alliance with Russia). So that's one more nation whose troops will be tromping across our territory.
The Ottomans build the Great Library (in Bursa). So make sure to include Osman in any tech trades.
IT: A Bab bowman (who had come from Ashur) attacks Ivriz, promoting the 3MC I'd stationed there to elite.
6 - 430 BC
Aleppo market->3MC. Kadesh library->harbor.
Hammi is in dire straits right about now. Ellipi is gone, and both Ottomans and Russia have troops converging on Ashur. And in one more turn, I'll have 8 3MCs within striking distance of Babylon. There's also a Portugeuse column marching across our territory, but they're going to show up too late to matter.
7 - 410 BC
Hattusas library->settler. Tarsus 3MC->settler.
Looks like there's going to be some empty space to our north pretty soon. We're going to want settlers.
Our galley sinks trying to return from the iron island (which is a suicide route, so probably not worth sending a settler there now anyway).
OK, we're as ready as we're going to be. The Battle of Babylon commences...
3MC retreats after doing one damage to vet spear. Reg spear revealed.
3MC dies after doing one damage to reg spear. Another reg spear revealed.
3MC retreats after doing one damage to reg spear. Injured vet revealed.
3MC retreats, doing no damage.
3MC does one damage and retreats.
Send in our elite 3MC, hoping for better luck. Finally kills a spear, taking two damage.
3MC redlines a spear but dies.
We no longer have enough forces to take the city, so I pull back into our territory to heal. That didn't go very well, but fortunately we only actually lost two 3MCs. I might have attacked a bit prematurely, but I thought eight 3MCs could beat three spears, even in a size seven city. Well, with any luck the other AIs will have just as much trouble.
We have WW now, but none of our cities are actually unhappy yet.
Change Tarsus back to 3MC. Hattusas is at +28 shields, which is really annoying, so swap a couple of tiles temporarily to get +30.
8 - 390 BC
Hattusas settler->3MC. Tyrana barracks->3MC.
On the IT, the Spanish raze Ashur, and the Ottos take Babylon.
I tried...
Unfortunately, now that Babylon is no more, the Dutch forces that have entered from the south have nowhere to go, and a couple of them just started moving in a different direction. A couple of horses are even within striking distance of Harran, which is undefended. And I can't get reinforcements there in time; I've been sending all of our forces to the Babylon front (and even then, it wasn't enough). If I had even one more turn, I could get three 3MCs there. I have a really bad feeling about this...
Anyway, we discover Invention. Unfortunately, the rest of the world just simultaneously discovered Theology...and Invention!
We were literally one turn too slow (and I researched as fast as our funds would allow). Oddly, the only one who doesn't have Invention is Osman, who's about to get it from the GL anyway, so I trade Invention for Theology. This
turn just keeps getting better and better....
Set research to Gunpowder, due in seven (though we'll go broke again and have to turn it down).
I look at Harran again, but there's nothing I can do. I wish I hadn't been so preoccupied with Babylon; I totally missed this possibility. I take a deep breath and press Enter...
9 - 370 BC
...and the Dutch turn around and go home. That's a big relief. Also a big mistake on William's part - he should have attacked us while the attacking was good. Next time we'll be ready for him.
Tarsus 3MC->worker. Aleppo 3MC->3MC.
DIscover that if I turn down lux to 0, only two cities are unhappy, both of which can build workers in the next couple of turns. So I do it and hire a couple of scientists.
Found a city on the pink dot to claim the iron. It'll be under culture pressure from the Ottomans (who are turning into a serious culture monster), but that can't be helped. We really need that iron. Start building a temple for the culture.
Needless to say, I move some spare 3MCs to beef up the southern border.
10 - 350 BC
Hattusas 3MC->3MC. Tarsus worker->3MC. Ugarit library->3MC. Harran library->settler. Tyrana 3MC->3MC.
Portugal develops Chivalry. I don't think we have anything to trade, though.
So here's the current situation:
Notes:
There's a stack of 3MCs in Ivriz which will be healed in another turn and can then be sent to the southern front (or wherever else they're needed).
Most of our core cities are done with infra now and building military. We should be ready for another war before too long.
We still have lots of Portugeuse troops tromping through our territory. They seem to be headed home.
There's a settler on dman's blue dot, ready to found that city. So at least we gained a little bit of territory from the Babylonian war.
Didn't get the settler factory reestablished yet. Hattusha can probably be that once it grows a little bit more.
Roster check:
Tubby Rower
dmanakho
Minute Man - just played
Bede - up!
Mach - on deck
Admiral Kutzov
eldar
On to the next (much) better player....
) and find out...Pre-flight
I take a look at the happiness situation and notice that if we turn down luxuries to 10%, we'd save 26 gpt, and the only city that would be unhappy is Hattusas (which is due to build a marketplace in three turns). I'm tempted to give Hattusas a scientist, but since our gems deal is about to expire, I'll keep luxuries where they are for another turn.
I think about building a settler in Hattusha, but it would be a Spanish settler. Spain isn't a culture monster now, but they are religious, and it looks like their culture is starting to increase, so let's not risk it. Besides, with a granary and flood plain wheat, it'll grow back the lost pop in no time. So keep starving.
Do a little MM. Tarsus, in particular, is making 20+ spt, which we don't really need, so let other towns borrow a couple of its improved squares.
Also...
, dman. Change that to a library - we have several fast-growing core cities that we can shave workers off of once they finish building libraries and markets.1 - 530 BC
Valencia spear->temple. Tarsus settler->3MC.
Tarsus is still at 20 spt, and I'm tempted to build archers to avoid wasting shields, but with 42 gpt in unit support, I think we'd better go for quality over quantity.
As expected, our gems deal expires. I find that Cathy is willing to renew it for dyes + 10 gpt. Since that lets us turn the lux slider down a notch, I think it's worth it, so I go ahead and make the deal. And Hattusas gets a scientist for the next couple of turns.
What's this scout doing? We have essentially zero unexplored territory on our continent, so I'm not willing to keep paying this guy 2 gpt. Disband him.
2 - 510 BC
Osman doesn't want to renew our MA vs. Babylon. Fine by me.
A Bab bowman suicides on our stack of 3MCs. One less defender to kill...
Battle of Nineveh commences.
3MC does 1 hp damage to vet spear before retreating. Reg spear revealed.
3MC redlines reg spear but dies. 3HP vet spear revealed.
3MC kills spear, taking 1 damage. That's more like it.
3MC gets redlined but polishes off the last spear.
So Nineveh is ours with only one 3MC lost. Move all the wounded into the city to heal; start the others toward Babylon.
Our 3MC coming up from the south reaches the hill next to Babylon, and sees a couple of Otto spears and an archer in the vicinity. I'd much rather raze Babylon than let Osman have it, but I might have to hurry.
Actually, now that I think about it, after Babylon falls, Hammi will be down to two size 1 cities, so he won't last long. So it's probably worth keeping rather than razing. Next turn I'll have 4 3MCs in attack position, ready to take the city if it looks like it's about to fall to Osman.
Incidentally, the iron has been pillaged, probably by the Otto archer standing on it. Which is probably just as well, but we'll have to reconnect it.
I'm forced to turn down research a couple of notches to avoid going broke. Invention still due in 6.
3 - 490 BC
Hattusas market->worker. Tarsus 3MC->3MC. Ugarit market->library.
4 - 470 BC
Hattusas worker->library. Harran market->library.
All the Ottoman troops, having pillaged just about everything at Babylon, just moved away from the city. Looks like we'll get to take it in peace. Need a few more 3MCs, though, so it'll be a couple of turns.
5 - 450 BC
Tarsus 3MC->3MC. Tyrana Library->barracks. Ankuwa library->market.
Netherlands just joined the dogpile vs. Babylon (via alliance with Russia). So that's one more nation whose troops will be tromping across our territory.
The Ottomans build the Great Library (in Bursa). So make sure to include Osman in any tech trades.
IT: A Bab bowman (who had come from Ashur) attacks Ivriz, promoting the 3MC I'd stationed there to elite.
6 - 430 BC
Aleppo market->3MC. Kadesh library->harbor.
Hammi is in dire straits right about now. Ellipi is gone, and both Ottomans and Russia have troops converging on Ashur. And in one more turn, I'll have 8 3MCs within striking distance of Babylon. There's also a Portugeuse column marching across our territory, but they're going to show up too late to matter.
7 - 410 BC
Hattusas library->settler. Tarsus 3MC->settler.
Looks like there's going to be some empty space to our north pretty soon. We're going to want settlers.
Our galley sinks trying to return from the iron island (which is a suicide route, so probably not worth sending a settler there now anyway).
OK, we're as ready as we're going to be. The Battle of Babylon commences...
3MC retreats after doing one damage to vet spear. Reg spear revealed.
3MC dies after doing one damage to reg spear. Another reg spear revealed.
3MC retreats after doing one damage to reg spear. Injured vet revealed.
3MC retreats, doing no damage.
3MC does one damage and retreats.
Send in our elite 3MC, hoping for better luck. Finally kills a spear, taking two damage.
3MC redlines a spear but dies.
We no longer have enough forces to take the city, so I pull back into our territory to heal. That didn't go very well, but fortunately we only actually lost two 3MCs. I might have attacked a bit prematurely, but I thought eight 3MCs could beat three spears, even in a size seven city. Well, with any luck the other AIs will have just as much trouble.
Be careful what you wish for...dmanakho said:
We have WW now, but none of our cities are actually unhappy yet.
Change Tarsus back to 3MC. Hattusas is at +28 shields, which is really annoying, so swap a couple of tiles temporarily to get +30.
8 - 390 BC
Hattusas settler->3MC. Tyrana barracks->3MC.
On the IT, the Spanish raze Ashur, and the Ottos take Babylon.
I tried...Unfortunately, now that Babylon is no more, the Dutch forces that have entered from the south have nowhere to go, and a couple of them just started moving in a different direction. A couple of horses are even within striking distance of Harran, which is undefended. And I can't get reinforcements there in time; I've been sending all of our forces to the Babylon front (and even then, it wasn't enough). If I had even one more turn, I could get three 3MCs there. I have a really bad feeling about this...
Anyway, we discover Invention. Unfortunately, the rest of the world just simultaneously discovered Theology...and Invention!
We were literally one turn too slow (and I researched as fast as our funds would allow). Oddly, the only one who doesn't have Invention is Osman, who's about to get it from the GL anyway, so I trade Invention for Theology. This turn just keeps getting better and better....
Set research to Gunpowder, due in seven (though we'll go broke again and have to turn it down).
I look at Harran again, but there's nothing I can do. I wish I hadn't been so preoccupied with Babylon; I totally missed this possibility. I take a deep breath and press Enter...
9 - 370 BC
...and the Dutch turn around and go home. That's a big relief. Also a big mistake on William's part - he should have attacked us while the attacking was good. Next time we'll be ready for him.
Tarsus 3MC->worker. Aleppo 3MC->3MC.
DIscover that if I turn down lux to 0, only two cities are unhappy, both of which can build workers in the next couple of turns. So I do it and hire a couple of scientists.
Found a city on the pink dot to claim the iron. It'll be under culture pressure from the Ottomans (who are turning into a serious culture monster), but that can't be helped. We really need that iron. Start building a temple for the culture.
Needless to say, I move some spare 3MCs to beef up the southern border.
10 - 350 BC
Hattusas 3MC->3MC. Tarsus worker->3MC. Ugarit library->3MC. Harran library->settler. Tyrana 3MC->3MC.
Portugal develops Chivalry. I don't think we have anything to trade, though.
So here's the current situation:
Notes:
There's a stack of 3MCs in Ivriz which will be healed in another turn and can then be sent to the southern front (or wherever else they're needed).
Most of our core cities are done with infra now and building military. We should be ready for another war before too long.
We still have lots of Portugeuse troops tromping through our territory. They seem to be headed home.
There's a settler on dman's blue dot, ready to found that city. So at least we gained a little bit of territory from the Babylonian war.
Didn't get the settler factory reestablished yet. Hattusha can probably be that once it grows a little bit more.
Roster check:
Tubby Rower
dmanakho
Minute Man - just played
Bede - up!
Mach - on deck
Admiral Kutzov
eldar
On to the next (much) better player....
Great job M-Man. 
So what, you didn't take Babylon, part of bad luck... Not a problemo...
I think Babylon war is a big success - we have dyes (even extra ones for trading). And we also have Iron...
All we need is to get us some knights, but i believe we can attack next opponent even before that.
Bede will decide depending on the situation present.
Would be nice to get another dot map created. Another important task for us right now - keep squeezing AIs by building more border cities and then add culture to expand.
It's not just about squeezing - lots of waste land east from us..
Also it would be nice to expand Aleppo's border to get silks under control.
So what, you didn't take Babylon, part of bad luck... Not a problemo...
I think Babylon war is a big success - we have dyes (even extra ones for trading). And we also have Iron...
All we need is to get us some knights, but i believe we can attack next opponent even before that.
Bede will decide depending on the situation present.
Would be nice to get another dot map created. Another important task for us right now - keep squeezing AIs by building more border cities and then add culture to expand.
It's not just about squeezing - lots of waste land east from us..
Also it would be nice to expand Aleppo's border to get silks under control.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
agree with dman.
We know Bede can do pictures. What about a dotmap?
Would also be nice to have the halls and the living room painted. any takers?
We know Bede can do pictures. What about a dotmap?
Would also be nice to have the halls and the living room painted. any takers?
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
So we have the whole continent mapped and no Joan???
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
At least you guys will believe me now that I said that I clicked continents instead of pangea
Tubby Rower said:At least you guys will believe me now that I said that I clicked continents instead of pangea
We believe you intended to click continents
But this is a pangea map. Pangea map often have islands where one or two AI (or human player for that matter) can have starting locations.
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
I've never played a pangea map where the main land mass is only half of the map. I realize that on pangea maps that there could be an island big enough to have a start or two on, but our "continent" isn't that big. And since all but one civ is on it, it generated a crowded condition.
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